Out-Of-Phase Speakers

[mulester7]

.....some of you Guys seem pretty sharp....let me ask you some questions....if an 8-ohm-nominal speaker is cross-wired out-of-phase at the terminals on the back of the speaker enclosure, and powered by an amp-section, what impedence would the speaker measure?....if wired correctly, of course the speaker would measure 8-ohms nominal in most cases, but if wired out-of-phase, what impedence would such a measurement bring?....if someone could take such a reading and report the results, Gene and I will sing a duet at your next wedding.....

 

[j_garcia]

AFAIK, it would be exactly the same, wouldn't it? Is this a trick question?

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?

 

[mulester7]

AFAIK, it would be exactly the same, wouldn't it? Is this a trick question?

WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?

.....Mr. Garcia, good to see you still here....didn't you have 2-way speakers awhile ago?....that's what I have, and imo you can't beat how the two elements speak as one voice as per realism........no no, this is no trick question....the signal is going through the passive crossover and through the speaker elements backwards, and I think an impedence measured will be higher, but I don't know....laying groundwork here.....

 

[j_garcia]

Good to see you as well My main set are all MTMs (though 2-way), but I have 2 drivers in my bedroom setup of the same family as my mains. I don't have a DVM so I can't do the measurement for you unfortunately.

 

[tcarcio]

8ohms is 8ohms weather in phase or out.

 

[mulester7]

Good to see you as well My main set are all MTMs (though 2-way), but I have 2 drivers in my bedroom setup of the same family as my mains. I don't have a DVM so I can't do the measurement for you unfortunately.

.....that's ok, J_Garcia, some Speaker Hawk will swoop down from the rafters when he sees this thread, I hope.....

 

[mulester7]

8ohms is 8ohms weather in phase or out.

.....thanks for the response, TCarcio, but have you personally measured that to be the case?....I don't need what makes sense here .....

 

[Alex2507]

About a year ago I asked a similar question. The deal was that I had the + wire going to the - connectors on all the speakers and was concerned because I understood the + typically went to the crossover which is on the + side. I was assured that it wouldn't matter by somebody I trust to know stuff but changed it anyway because of superstition or something.

Edit: You snuck the above post in on me. I haven't measured it either and wouldn't even begin to know how. The impedance would be frequency specific so I imagine it would be kind of involved.

 

[tcarcio]

.....thanks for the response, TCarcio, but have you personally measured that to be the case?....I don't need what makes sense here .....

Well I haven't measured it but the only thing that should change is the soundfield and low frequency output, But I am making sense again...

 

[mulester7]

About a year ago I asked a similar question. The deal was that I had the + wire going to the - connectors on all the speakers and was concerned because I understood the + typically went to the crossover which is on the + side. I was assured that it wouldn't matter by somebody I trust to know stuff but changed it anyway because of superstition or something.

.....Alex, a couple of years ago, I ran a pair of my current floorstanders up front, and a pair of my current same-line bookshelves as 4-corner, with all four speakers intentionally cross-wired for 4-5 months....at the time, that was my only system....might have been 6-7 months, not sure, and I kicked the four speakers worth an honest $5700 virtuallly every day with Crown K2's....LOUD levels....marvelous amp....have three on my bottom-seperates....anyhow, after let's say about 6 months, what started getting to me was the highs, as a bit of raspiness crept in I noticed increasingly for a week or so....I then reversed the cross-wiring, and all I could say is it sounded better, I guess, as per no raspy initially, but the inner-detail wasn't as good, either....yes....the 4 speakers when they were cross-wired lost some low-end, but the low cycles were still there.....

.....long story short, I had 2 SVS B-4's to keep the cross-wiring warm, and I got tired of "direct cross-wiring sound" coming from the front soundstage, soooo, I had to miss the effect....until about a month ago.....

.....I'll quit here until we get a measurement of the impedence of an 8-ohm speaker cross-wired out-of-phase being driven.....

 

[highfigh]

.....some of you Guys seem pretty sharp....let me ask you some questions....if an 8-ohm-nominal speaker is cross-wired out-of-phase at the terminals on the back of the speaker enclosure, and powered by an amp-section, what impedence would the speaker measure?....if wired correctly, of course the speaker would measure 8-ohms nominal in most cases, but if wired out-of-phase, what impedence would such a measurement bring?....if someone could take such a reading and report the results, Gene and I will sing a duet at your next wedding.....

It's exactly the same. The signal going to the speaker is AC, so it's really not like looking into the South end of a North bound speaker.

You want me to use my WT3 for this? Does it have to be an 8 Ohm speaker and are you looking specifically for the effect of the crossover on the measurement?

I just measured a woofer (4 Ohm nominal) and the impedance was virtually identical over several tests but since I only have one WT3, I can't verify any aberration with that. More often than not, the measured Z was the same or varied by only a few thousandths of an Ohm. Fs was the same for all tests.

 

[mulester7]

It's exactly the same. The signal going to the speaker is AC, so it's really not like looking into the South end of a North bound speaker.

You want me to use my WT3 for this? Does it have to be an 8 Ohm speaker and are you looking specifically for the effect of the crossover on the measurement?

I just measured a woofer (4 Ohm nominal) and the impedance was virtually identical over several tests but since I only have one WT3, I can't verify any aberration with that. More often than not, the measured Z was the same or varied by only a few thousandths of an Ohm. Fs was the same for all tests.

.....HighFigh, if you could test a two-way or three-way speaker with your WT3, ie-passive-crossover involved, 8-ohm nominal preferred, I would really appreciate it....what I've done will stand either way, but I'm trying to figure-out what's happening thus causing.....

 

[lsiberian]

You know this is very easy to measure with a ohmmeter?

But I don't have one atm. Maybe I'll pick one one up and take measurements for you.

But first I want to know who you are. Apparently everyone knows you and I will only let you sing at my wedding if you don't let me future wife know you were invited and invited to sing.

 

[highfigh]

.....Alex, a couple of years ago, I ran a pair of my current floorstanders up front, and a pair of my current same-line bookshelves as 4-corner, with all four speakers intentionally cross-wired for 4-5 months....at the time, that was my only system....might have been 6-7 months, not sure, and I kicked the four speakers worth an honest $5700 virtuallly every day with Crown K2's....LOUD levels....marvelous amp....have three on my bottom-seperates....anyhow, after let's say about 6 months, what started getting to me was the highs, as a bit of raspiness crept in I noticed increasingly for a week or so....I then reversed the cross-wiring, and all I could say is it sounded better, I guess, as per no raspy initially, but the inner-detail wasn't as good, either....yes....the 4 speakers when they were cross-wired lost some low-end, but the low cycles were still there.....

.....long story short, I had 2 SVS B-4's to keep the cross-wiring warm, and I got tired of "direct cross-wiring sound" coming from the front soundstage, soooo, I had to miss the effect....until about a month ago.....

.....I'll quit here until we get a measurement of the impedence of an 8-ohm speaker cross-wired out-of-phase being driven.....

The raspiness you heard was from phase cancellations, not because of any impedance differences. Comb filtering occurs and different frequencies cancel in different amounts, depending on where the speakers are in relation to each other and where you are when you're listening. It's called 'comb filtering' because the response curve ends up looking like the teeth of a comb. It only takes one speaker being wired in reverse to really screw up the sound. It's almost impossible to have a stable soundstage, imaging suffers and the harshness you heard is really annoying. You probably noticed that if you moved your head a few inches to one side, or the other, the image changed considerably- this is a typical symptom.

 

[mulester7]

You know this is very easy to measure with a ohmmeter?

But I don't have one atm. Maybe I'll pick one one up and take measurements for you.

But first I want to know who you are. Apparently everyone knows you and I will only let you sing at my wedding if you don't let me future wife know you were invited and invited to sing.

.....agreed, Isiberian, Gene will be carrying me on the song anyway .....

.....my name is Ronnie Smith, I live in North Little Rock, Arkansas, am a freight-conductor for Union Pacific, and last worked a couple months ago....I'm off on medical leave for carpal-tunnel testing and the ensuing operations on both hands....had the left one done a month ago, and will have the right wrist done in about a month....feeling older than dirt lately, but hangin' in there....had a total knee-replacement last April....amazing improvement in the quality of life I was experiencing....strongly endorse....left knee replacement maybe soon....will probably retire in this calendar year and need to get stuff fixed while still on the insurance....love my theater.....

 

[highfigh]

You know this is very easy to measure with a ohmmeter?

No, you can't. He's asking about impedance, not DC resistance.

 

[highfigh]

.....HighFigh, if you could test a two-way or three-way speaker with your WT3, ie-passive-crossover involved, 8-ohm nominal preferred, I would really appreciate it....what I've done will stand either way, but I'm trying to figure-out what's happening thus causing.....

I can do it tomorrow- I'll have to drag the speakers out to do it. I'll print, scan and post the data for normal and reversed connection.

I tested a woofer before and just toggled between normal and reversed but don't see any difference in the impedance or phase curves, at all.

 

[mulester7]

The raspiness you heard was from phase cancellations, not because of any impedance differences. Comb filtering occurs and different frequencies cancel in different amounts, depending on where the speakers are in relation to each other and where you are when you're listening. It's called 'comb filtering' because the response curve ends up looking like the teeth of a comb. It only takes one speaker being wired in reverse to really screw up the sound. It's almost impossible to have a stable soundstage, imaging suffers and the harshness you heard is really annoying. You probably noticed that if you moved your head a few inches to one side, or the other, the image changed considerably- this is a typical symptom.

.....but the imaging didn't suffer, I heard more inner-detail and air than wired correctly, and more realism....I believe it's my speakers that allowed it to sound that good cross-wired, I don't know....most realism-based speaker-line I've ever messed with....honestly, the raspiness didn't come until right at the end of about six months....how could there have been phase cancellations when all four speakers were in like-phase being out-of-phase?....I sure do hope that ohmage/impedance reading can be reported soon....(drumming fingers)....honestly, I'll send somebody 5 bucks to measure the actual ohmage of an 8-ohm speaker, cross-wired out-of-phase, and driven.....

 

[mulester7]

I can do it tomorrow- I'll have to drag the speakers out to do it. I'll print, scan and post the data for normal and reversed connection.

I tested a woofer before and just toggled between normal and reversed but don't see any difference in the impedance or phase curves, at all.

.....HighFigh, I apologize for not seeing this one earlier....I would really appreciate your doing that measurement....will be glad to send you a sawbuck for your efforts....

 

[highfigh]

.....but the imaging didn't suffer, I heard more inner-detail and air than wired correctly, and more realism....I believe it's my speakers that allowed it to sound that good cross-wired, I don't know....most realism-based speaker-line I've ever messed with....honestly, the raspiness didn't come until right at the end of about six months....how could there have been phase cancellations when all four speakers were in like-phase being out-of-phase?....I sure do hope that ohmage/impedance reading can be reported soon....(drumming fingers)....honestly, I'll send somebody 5 bucks to measure the actual ohmage of an 8-ohm speaker, cross-wired out-of-phase, and driven.....

Sorry, I thought you posted that either one pair or one speaker was reversed.

Speakers do sound different when they're all wired that way. The soundstage tends to seem like it's behind the wall/plane of the front speakers and if you google for this, you should be able to find several references to it.