Order of importance for acoustic treatments?

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mattburk

Audioholic Intern
I just watched the new record day youtube video on room acoustic treatments. I asked in the thread but did not see an answer. For the average room what is the order of importance for room treatments? By that I mean what things would you do first because they have the greatest impact? From watching the referenced video I came up with this:

1. Bass traps (on the floor, by the speaker and in the ceiling corner) Do you need the one on the ceiling?
2. Acoustic Diffuser at the first reflection location
3. Acoustic treatment by the seating area.

I do have four subs and I am looking at adding a mini dsp, but that is a different question for later.

I appreciate your feedback.
 
C

CoryW

Audioholic
I had issues with boomy bass at specific frequencies. I have two RBH reference subs away from corners. I knew it could be cleaner. I added bass traps to all of my corners. I also added panel 12x12 on my back wall. The bass is now bottomless, with lovely waves that go through your naughty bits. I understand that my system was a bit of a crap shoot, not scientific at all. But the results were perfect.
 

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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I just watched the new record day youtube video on room acoustic treatments. I asked in the thread but did not see an answer. For the average room what is the order of importance for room treatments? By that I mean what things would you do first because they have the greatest impact? From watching the referenced video I came up with this:

1. Bass traps (on the floor, by the speaker and in the ceiling corner) Do you need the one on the ceiling?
2. Acoustic Diffuser at the first reflection location
3. Acoustic treatment by the seating area.

I do have four subs and I am looking at adding a mini dsp, but that is a different question for later.

I appreciate your feedback.
Several other posts about this recently. Be cautious. Its very easy to overdo treatments, especially if you don't understand the underlying acoustics.
You do not want to absorb all reflections. Anechoic rooms are described as uncomfortable by most people. Your ears expect, want and need some of the reflections.

And so I ask... why do you need acoustic treatments?
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Several other posts about this recently. Be cautious. Its very easy to overdo treatments, especially if you don't understand the underlying acoustics.
You do not want to absorb all reflections. Anechoic rooms are described as uncomfortable by most people. Your ears expect, want and need some of the reflections.

And so I ask... why do you need acoustic treatments?
But the question on order of importance in proper treatment is still valid, no? Starting from the beginning, if you have equipment suited for the room (no overkill or weak system) and you have bare floors and walls, where would you start?
Lets use this simple crutchfiel pic
1582188438456.png

What is screaming for attention?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
As was mentioned, acoustic reflections are not necessarily a bad thing. Especially early reflections such as the first reflection. Do not trust any acoustic treatment manufacturer, they will say whatever it takes to make a sale. Many people like the broadened soundstage that comes with early reflections. Killing early reflections shrinks the soundstage. There is a good deal of science behind this. If you want to put up treatments, look into placing absorbers behind the speakers and on the wall behind the listening position. That is a pretty reliable rule of thumb. If your room is lively, get a thick rug in front of the speakers if you have a hardwood floor. Thick curtains are good too, but again, not a great idea to absorb or diffuse early reflections.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
As was mentioned, acoustic reflections are not necessarily a bad thing. Especially early reflections such as the first reflection. Do not trust any acoustic treatment manufacturer, they will say whatever it takes to make a sale. Many people like the broadened soundstage that comes with early reflections. Killing early reflections shrinks the soundstage. There is a good deal of science behind this. If you want to put up treatments, look into placing absorbers behind the speakers and on the wall behind the listening position. That is a pretty reliable rule of thumb. If your room is lively, get a thick rug in front of the speakers if you have a hardwood floor. Thick curtains are good too, but again, not a great idea to absorb or diffuse early reflections.
This is helpful, thank you. Even I cold get some of the ones you mentioned and not mind them in my living space (i don't like the looks of the most). So, the rule of thumb; you start with the ones behind the speakers and the LP. What if you have no other choice (small room) but to have your LP close to the wall behind (for example a couch against the back wall)?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
This is helpful, thank you. Even I cold get some of the ones you mentioned and not mind them in my living space (i don't like the looks of the most). So, the rule of thumb; you start with the ones behind the speakers and the LP. What if you have no other choice (small room) but to have your LP close to the wall behind (for example a couch against the back wall)?
If you have to sit against the wall, you normally want to put an absorber on that surface. Yes, absolutely treat that surface with a good absorber.
 
M

Mpsafranski

Audioholic
Several other posts about this recently. Be cautious. Its very easy to overdo treatments, especially if you don't understand the underlying acoustics.
You do not want to absorb all reflections. Anechoic rooms are described as uncomfortable by most people. Your ears expect, want and need some of the reflections.

And so I ask... why do you need acoustic treatments?
Several other posts about this? What could you possibly mean? ;)
FWIW I just got my mini dsp mic and a mic stand yesterday. I also found a really interesting article (more of a paper, really) on sub placement and dealing with peaks and nulls in the modal region and ryanosaur according to it, your comment RE symmetry w subs being a bad thing acoustically are spot on. The paper went on in great detail about things that are way above my head RE having one sub handle the really LF and the other(s) filter a little higher or something to that effect. The one suggestion I CAN wrap my head around is to try putting one sub in a front corner, and the other basically anywhere else other than the front. Lots of experimentation to do with REW.
I do have a quick related question: for someone like me: my couch backs up to a wall that opens up halfway through the room to the entry way and our staircase. So does it make sense to treat one side of the back wall in these circumstances? (Or at least hang a canvas print, anything besides a bare wall)
E1AE1C41-B520-4BC1-8CB8-7A51F1F31DDA.jpeg
 
M

Mpsafranski

Audioholic

Here’s a link (that also has 2 embedded links to the paper) to what I was talking about. Again, too new to understand all of it but I get some of the concepts.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Several other posts about this? What could you possibly mean? ;)
FWIW I just got my mini dsp mic and a mic stand yesterday. I also found a really interesting article (more of a paper, really) on sub placement and dealing with peaks and nulls in the modal region and ryanosaur according to it, your comment RE symmetry w subs being a bad thing acoustically are spot on. The paper went on in great detail about things that are way above my head RE having one sub handle the really LF and the other(s) filter a little higher or something to that effect. The one suggestion I CAN wrap my head around is to try putting one sub in a front corner, and the other basically anywhere else other than the front. Lots of experimentation to do with REW.
I do have a quick related question: for someone like me: my couch backs up to a wall that opens up halfway through the room to the entry way and our staircase. So does it make sense to treat one side of the back wall in these circumstances? (Or at least hang a canvas print, anything besides a bare wall)
View attachment 34158
Sounds like you ran into some Geddes driven discussion (like Ryan was referring to).

ps LOL beat me to it.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
@Mpsafranski
Indeed, the Geddes approach is what made the most sense to me when it comes to Subwoofer placement. There are many ways to skin a cat, of course, but the seemingly more dogmatic approach of enforcing symmetrical placement, corner loading, front loading, 1/4 wall, 1/2 wall, etc... doesn't take into account that every room is different.
I had a situation with my mains creating a huge suckout down low because of the symmetrical arrangement. I changed the alignment of the Front L Speaker by no more that 1.5" in it's floor placement, and rotated the toe-in angle just a hair, and boom: that suckout was gone. No need for EQ solutions to fix something which the application of a little science and common sense could.
That fix was possible because I took some time to learn about room measurements and acoustics. I understood some basics of what happens when a soundwave interacts with itself at the 1/4, 1/2 or full length of that wave.
I still haven't done a full measurement of my subs, but the metrics I do have to work with are quite acceptable. I came by my placement choices by doing the Crawl, I kept my mind open to letting the room's acoustics determine the best options, and I adjusted slightly from there as warranted by the limited measurements I had.
Both Subs and Full-range towers are all slightly different measurements from the walls and each other, and from my LP. Through placement alone, I have taken care to avoid creating nulls and cancellations. Do they exist, still? I'm certain they do, but not where it matters! :)
 
M

Mpsafranski

Audioholic
That is actually helpful as heck, I’d not even considered having the towers in different locations in relation to the room. I bust out my tape measure and try to get them matched HAHAHA. Even though FR actually does NOT have a side boundary while FL does. And as you noted before, the top bottom half of bottom woofer on FR is pointed directly at the end of the sectional. So yes! Common sense would dictate uneven placement though i was spending all my time pushing for symmetry.
 
M

mattburk

Audioholic Intern
I had issues with boomy bass at specific frequencies. I have two RBH reference subs away from corners. I knew it could be cleaner. I added bass traps to all of my corners. I also added panel 12x12 on my back wall. The bass is now bottomless, with lovely waves that go through your naughty bits. I understand that my system was a bit of a crap shoot, not scientific at all. But the results were perfect.
Thanks!
 
M

mattburk

Audioholic Intern
Several other posts about this recently. Be cautious. Its very easy to overdo treatments, especially if you don't understand the underlying acoustics.
You do not want to absorb all reflections. Anechoic rooms are described as uncomfortable by most people. Your ears expect, want and need some of the reflections.

And so I ask... why do you need acoustic treatments?
I think I need room treatments as I have four subs and from what I understand it is hard to get them to mix well, so before I spend larger sums of money on eq I thought I would start with treatments. It seems to make sense to do treatments and then run your parametric eq.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I think I need room treatments as I have four subs and from what I understand it is hard to get them to mix well, so before I spend larger sums of money on eq I thought I would start with treatments. It seems to make sense to do treatments and then run your parametric eq.
You aren't answering the question. :)

Have you taken room measurements that show an excess of bass energy that you need to dampen? If yes, please post them. If no, how do you KNOW you need treatments?

Please know, I'm not trying to dissuade, but too many people decide that they need treatments without knowing how or why you use them. A thread over on that other site just had 3 very experienced HT/Audio cats chime in about how they treated their rooms, only to completely undo the treatments and find that it sounded better untreated!

And so I ask... again... why do you need acoustic treatments? ;)
 
M

mattburk

Audioholic Intern
You aren't answering the question. :)

Have you taken room measurements that show an excess of bass energy that you need to dampen? If yes, please post them. If no, how do you KNOW you need treatments?

Please know, I'm not trying to dissuade, but too many people decide that they need treatments without knowing how or why you use them. A thread over on that other site just had 3 very experienced HT/Audio cats chime in about how they treated their rooms, only to completely undo the treatments and find that it sounded better untreated!

And so I ask... again... why do you need acoustic treatments? ;)

Good questions. I have no way of knowing as I have no way of measuring. It looks like I should purchase that equipment first.

So do I start with a mini dsp & microphone?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I wouldn't buy the 2x4 unless I knew I needed it first... but that's just me. ;) Definitely a Mic and downloading REW is in order, if you want to dive into room acoustics, though.
Regardless of your room acoustics, REW+Mic and a 2x4 will allow you to control your Subs at a much higher level than any auto room correction will.
 

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