Optical digital interconnects

[jonnythan]

What software, specifically? What on their site is fraudulent?

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

The claim that speaker cables must all be the same length otherwise there will be timing issues. They make these claims as if it will be perceivable, audible problems.

These are supposed to be experts. How can you be an expert and offer this level of bad advice for consumers ? The software that I was thinking of buying was the HDTV wizard calibration disk. Calibrates all types of displays.

--Sincerely,

 

[jonnythan]

Who is claiming that? Monster?

I didn't even know they had software.

What you need is a copy of Avia and a Radio Shack SPL meter.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Jonnythan, the problem is that I'm PAL. Avia does not have PAL test patterns as far as I know. I do have the Radio Shack SPL meter. But I'm looking for calibration software for displays for PAL.

Do you know any ?

--Sincerely,

 

[jonnythan]

http://www.videoessentials.com/DVD_PAL.php

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Cool, thanks for the link. I think I'm going to order DVE PAL. I never thought that there was a PAL version. Thanks again for the link.

--Sincerely,

 

[InTheIndustry]

I have to chime in here as I have seen several things stated that are incorrect or take liberties with facts.

I have to assume that the original poster is referring to running fiber optic cable (Toslink) vs. Digital coax for DVD to receiver and other audio components?

Toslink is way inferior to digital coax in terms of length limitations. It’s usually reliable up to 5 meters without the use of amplification devices. I have seen longer out there, but 5 meters is the most common long length you’ll find without having to break the bank.

True or False: All toslink cables are made of glass? False!

Just because a toslink cable is fiber optic does not mean that it is made of glass. Most (and by most I mean by a large margin) are made of either solid core plastic or stranded plastic. Not glass. The Sonic Wave toslink from Impact Acoustics (IA) is glass. Their Meteora is stranded plastic, and Velocity is a single-solid-core. The IA Sonic Wave cable ($66.00 for a 1 meter) is one of the least expensive all glass cables on the market, but also one of the best in terms of strand count with 280 which makes for great bend radius, bandwidth, and durability. Audio Quest’s top of the line toslink has much fewer strands of glass in (it which makes it less durable, allows for less flexibility, and is priced around $425 for a 1 meter last time I checked. Glass allows for a significantly better signal path through the cable (particularly if there are bends in the run between the equipment) and bigger bandwidth. Is this routinely audible? That depends on who’s listening and to what gear they are listening too.

It’s not going to matter which cable you run, toslink, or digital coax. There are people in both camps that have data and theories explaining why one is better than the other. The poster stating that toslink cables are known for having loose connections is spot on correct. Many of them do. The IA products have generally been great at clicking into their ports on equipment and rarely have we ever encountered a problem with one of their pieces coming disconnected. PS. No, I am not a shill for Impact Acoustics. We use them a lot in my custom install company and I have always been pleased.

Is it “best” to wire the front three speakers with the same length of cable as well as doing the same for the rears? In theory and on paper, yes. But you can’t hear things on paper and the distances wire is run in a house will never allow for an audible difference unless, maybe, in extreme cases.

What gear are you hooking up? A fair rule of thumb is that 10% of your equipment cost is a good budget for wire and cable. It’s not over kill nor are you providing the “weakest link” to prohibit your components to look and sound their best. The Impact Acoustic stuff is a very good value and offers a good, better, and best solution if you are looking for good quality cables without getting blasted with snake oil and snake oil prices.

Or, if you feel confident hooking your state of the art gear up with dental floss, sowing thread, and paying less than what a vile of dirt might cost check out Steren products. In all seriousness, if you are looking to keep the cost of your cables relative to the cost of your gear and not get hosed the 10% rule is an easy way to do it. Just my $0.02. Good luck!

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Has anyone used DVE for calibrating their displays ? Has there been a big improvement in the picture ? Anyone used the PAL version ?

Sorry to change the topic of discussion. Optical cable is inferior to coaxial in terms of build quality. And I think that is all. Sound quality wise, both are identical, in my opinion.

--Sincerely,

 

[jonnythan]

Toslink is way inferior to digital coax in terms of length limitations. It’s usually reliable up to 5 meters without the use of amplification devices.

I have seen longer out there, but 5 meters is the most common long length you’ll find without having to break the bank.

True or False: All toslink cables are made of glass? False!

Just because a toslink cable is fiber optic does not mean that it is made of glass. Most (and by most I mean by a large margin) are made of either solid core plastic or stranded plastic. Not glass. The Sonic Wave toslink from Impact Acoustics (IA) is glass. Their Meteora is stranded plastic, and Velocity is a single-solid-core. The IA Sonic Wave cable ($66.00 for a 1 meter) is one of the least expensive all glass cables on the market, but also one of the best in terms of strand count with 280 which makes for great bend radius, bandwidth, and durability. Audio Quest’s top of the line toslink has much fewer strands of glass in (it which makes it less durable, allows for less flexibility, and is priced around $425 for a 1 meter last time I checked. Glass allows for a significantly better signal path through the cable (particularly if there are bends in the run between the equipment) and bigger bandwidth. Is this routinely audible? That depends on who’s listening and to what gear they are listening too.

It’s not going to matter which cable you run, toslink, or digital coax. There are people in both camps that have data and theories explaining why one is better than the other. The poster stating that toslink cables are known for having loose connections is spot on correct. Many of them do. The IA products have generally been great at clicking into their ports on equipment and rarely have we ever encountered a problem with one of their pieces coming disconnected. PS. No, I am not a shill for Impact Acoustics. We use them a lot in my custom install company and I have always been pleased.

Is it “best” to wire the front three speakers with the same length of cable as well as doing the same for the rears? In theory and on paper, yes. But you can’t hear things on paper and the distances wire is run in a house will never allow for an audible difference unless, maybe, in extreme cases.

What gear are you hooking up? A fair rule of thumb is that 10% of your equipment cost is a good budget for wire and cable. It’s not over kill nor are you providing the “weakest link” to prohibit your components to look and sound their best. The Impact Acoustic stuff is a very good value and offers a good, better, and best solution if you are looking for good quality cables without getting blasted with snake oil and snake oil prices.

Or, if you feel confident hooking your state of the art gear up with dental floss, sowing thread, and paying less than what a vile of dirt might cost check out Steren products. In all seriousness, if you are looking to keep the cost of your cables relative to the cost of your gear and not get hosed the 10% rule is an easy way to do it. Just my $0.02. Good luck!

5 meters, huh?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022901&p_id=2669&seq=1&format=2&style=

I have two of those. Both work 100% flawlessly. 50 feet, less than $10.

I hear a lot of noise from you with no actual information.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How can such a reputable manfacturer blatantly put out factually incorrect information on their website ? I mean, timing issues ? The signal is traveling at incredible speeds, and while there will be resistance, I simply do not believe that a couple extra meters could negatively affect the timing of the signal.

What do you think ?

--Sincerely,

Reputable? Does that mean lots of people know them, or that they are totally honest, no snake oil advertisements, no bs, voodoo, etc?

No, they are the early snake oil companies in audio. If you read the boards here no one recommends their products because of high prices and abysmal business practices.

Go elsewhere for calibration discs as well.
Oh, if they tell you to buy same length cables, they sell more.
As was posted, electric signals in wire travels about 1 ft per nanoseconds and 1 ft in air about 1 milliseconds

 

[mtrycrafts]

A fair rule of thumb is that 10% of your equipment cost ...!

Fair to whom? The installer or the buyer?

 

[InTheIndustry]

5 meters, huh?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022901&p_id=2669&seq=1&format=2&style=

I have two of those. Both work 100% flawlessly. 50 feet, less than $10.

I hear a lot of noise from you with no actual information.

That's not a real common length for tos link cables. I didn't say that longer than 5 meters didn't exist. The ones I have seen are primarily on the more expensive side, but I admitedly don't nose around in the bottom of the barrel. I also don't know of every generic product out there that comes along as it would be impossible to keep up with all of the cables that are out there. However, that's why I will sometimes speak in generalities with words like "usually" and "common". When not speaking in generalities I use facts just like in my privious posts.

In terms of my "noise" and "no actual information", I posted several facts as to the cost and differences between tos link cables from two different manufacturers. You posted the vile of dirt interconnect that I was refering to. Sorry if you were offended.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Fair to whom? The installer or the buyer?

I could care less if it's fair to an installer or not.

If your system costs $1K including the TV, is it hard to spend $100 hooking everything up? This would include speaker wire, interconnects, speaker wire termintations, etc. I don't think that would be hard at all.

10% is a common bench mark. It's not scripture. Would I spend $500 hooking up a $5K (includes TV) system? Probably not. Between $350 & $400 is reasonable. I am refering to 10% of MSRP pricing of the wire. Meaning, if you have an $8K system and can get $800 MSRP in interconnects and speaker wire for $600, go for it. If you bought your cables online add up how much MSRP would have run you and see if it's around 10%.

There is a point of diminishing returns, absolutely. Would I recommend $18K worth of wiring for a Krell EVO set? No way.... that's crazy!

 

[jonnythan]

That's not a real common length for tos link cables. I didn't say that longer than 5 meters didn't exist. The ones I have seen are primarily on the more expensive side, but I admitedly don't nose around in the bottom of the barrel. I also don't know of every generic product out there that comes along as it would be impossible to keep up with all of the cables that are out there. However, that's why I will sometimes speak in generalities with words like "usually" and "common". When not speaking in generalities I use facts just like in my privious posts.

In terms of my "noise" and "no actual information", I posted several facts as to the cost and differences between tos link cables from two different manufacturers. You posted the vile of dirt interconnect that I was refering to. Sorry if you were offended.

Monoprice isn't exactly some obscure little boutique retailer. They probably sell more cables than every high-end cable manufacturer besides Monster put together.

You're "in the industry," you should have some clue that you can buy inexpensive 50 foot Toslink cables. You can buy 25 foot cables (significantly longer than 5m) from any number of inexpensive cable manufacturers.

You admit you speak in a lot of generalities. Well, those generalities need some tweaking. 10% of system cost on cables? Psh. Comparing the perfectly functional Monoprice cables to sewing thread and dental floss? Optical cables longer than 15 feet cost hundreds or thousands of dollars?

Give me a break.

You either have some clear agenda or you're just out of your gourd.

 

[Nick250]

The claim that speaker cables must all be the same length otherwise there will be timing issues. They make these claims as if it will be perceivable, audible problems.

These are supposed to be experts. How can you be an expert and offer this level of bad advice for consumers ? The software that I was thinking of buying was the HDTV wizard calibration disk. Calibrates all types of displays.

--Sincerely,

Ahemm.... Monster experts?

 

[InTheIndustry]

You admit you speak in a lot of generalities. Well, those generalities need some tweaking. 10% of system cost on cables? Psh. Comparing the perfectly functional Monoprice cables to sewing thread and dental floss? Optical cables longer than 15 feet cost hundreds or thousands of dollars?

You either have some clear agenda or you're just out of your gourd.

I didn't say hundreds or thousands of dollars in any of my posts. Particularly not in reference to long length Tos link cables. I said "break the bank" and I was referring to higher quality pieces than what you use.

What agenda would I be serving posting on a message board at 11:00pm on a Tuesday night? Reaching the masses trying to get them to purchase expensive cables? Are you serious?

Oh', so I must be out of my gourd, then right?
I'm sure that Monoprice.com has the market cornered on A/V cables, huh? Everybody's wrong with their nice quote "high performance" cables, huh? But not Jonnythan, he has it all figured out. Monoprice. Why didn't I think of them before? Their products are "functional" enough. Myself, and the entire rest of the audio video industry, manufacturer's, installers, writers and all should have been looking there this whole time. Better yet, why not just use the RCA's that come in the box? Sony gave them to me, so they must be good, right?

I'm curious as to what this conspiracy theory is of yours that has you thinking that an integrator would come on here late at night and make posts trying to get people to do???? Is the A/V market place out to get you? We're all lurking around every corner, every webpage, trying to get Jonnythan to. To. To, what? I can't fathom what "clear agenda" you think I or anyone else freely posting on this site has. This is a hobby and a business of mine. I am merely trying to give as good advice as I can to people looking for some honest help. My word isn't gospel. I can certainly be wrong or make a mistake, but to jump all over me with garbage like you did so that you could, what it comes down to, defend your choice of cabling for your system (which I could care less about, never referred to, or even knew existed) is ridiculous.

I've been in this industry for going on 8 years. I have dissected, tested, used, and compared more cables than you can count. Someone who's only interested in finding the cheapest thing available that he considers functional should not be giving other people advice as to what performs better, which is what this thread was about.

By the way, Audioholics uses the Impact Acoustics products I referenced in their reviews, in their own showcase home, and recommends them highly because of their value. You know what they don't use? $8 toslink cables from monoprice.

 

[MDS]

The way I see it, the only thing InTheIndustry said that could have used more clarification was the difference between optical cables that use glass instead of plastic. Sure, if you have a very long run a cable using glass will likely be more robust than a cheaper cable using plastic. In the typical short differences of a HT setup, the plain old plastic cable will work flawlessly. Of course if you make extreme bends or actually break the cable all bets are off - regardless if the tunnel is glass or plastic.

Perhaps we all need to add caveats about distance when we make general statements.

As far as 10% of the system cost for cables, that is not unreasonable, but as InTheIndustry said, it is not gospel. You shouldn't purchase up to the 10% mark just to meet that rule of thumb for cable cost as there are a lot of cables by reputable companies that will do the job just fine for less, but again you need to take into account the distance and the environment in which the cable will be used (and for most relatively mundane systems the 'cheap' cables will work just fine.)

Just don't fall for the ridiculous marketing claims of some cable companies; eg if anyone tells you that cables cause jitter, walk away - they don't know the first thing about it - jitter is the most oft-cited 'problem' with digital audio and most people that make the claim couldn't explain what jitter really is if their life depended on it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I could care less if it's fair to an installer or not.

If your system costs $1K including the TV, is it hard to spend $100 hooking everything up? This would include speaker wire, interconnects, speaker wire termintations, etc. I don't think that would be hard at all.

10% is a common bench mark. It's not scripture. Would I spend $500 hooking up a $5K (includes TV) system? Probably not. Between $350 & $400 is reasonable. I am refering to 10% of MSRP pricing of the wire. Meaning, if you have an $8K system and can get $800 MSRP in interconnects and speaker wire for $600, go for it. If you bought your cables online add up how much MSRP would have run you and see if it's around 10%.

There is a point of diminishing returns, absolutely. Would I recommend $18K worth of wiring for a Krell EVO set? No way.... that's crazy!

Now why would a more expensive setup need more expensive wires? Longer runs defacto?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I've been in this industry for going on 8 years. I have dissected, tested, used, and compared more cables than you can count.

So, they all sound audibly different? Your testing also included some DBT listening protocols?

Someone who's only interested in finding the cheapest thing available that he considers functional should not be giving other people advice as to what performs better, which is what this thread was about.

Why would those Imacts perform better, audibly? I would be interested in that evidence. So would some others I know in the audio biz.

Actually, cables are over rated most of the time. And, that is why that 10% rule is silly.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

I had a lecture today concerning cables. Oh my word. From "burn in" to rearranging of molecules, I heard it all.

At least the manafacturer claimed that it was black magic. He even insisted that it couldn't be explained why there would be differences. Just that there are differences. I mean, huh ? I fought the urges to argue but man.

--Sincerely,