Opinions Wanted On Biwiring Klipsch Speakers

[mtrycrafts]

I left the Veritas bi-wired anyway, it allows me to measure the currents flow into the LF and H/MF drivers separately. My 12 ga. wires are short so it doesn't cost much at all.

What would be interesting is to accurately measure the effects at each
speaker voice coil for differences when the speaker is bi-wired and not. That will tell you much more about any differences and its magnitudes.
And, if bi-wiring or rather not bi-wiring introduces IM in the wires themselves. But then, you'd have to eliminate the wire in the amp too as it would also have that IM, if that is the cause.
But, right now, I just don't see any evidence that anyone can hear a difference when bias is controlled for.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hey everyone, didn't mean to start such a heated discussion , Well thank you for all your inputs and opinions.

You didn't cause anything

We are discussing. Some things just gets discussed more than others, at times. Not the first, nor the last.

You should see some of the discussions elsewhere, especially some of the closed threads ID comes to mind

 

[PENG]

And, if bi-wiring or rather not bi-wiring introduces IM in the wires themselves. But then, you'd have to eliminate the wire in the amp too as it would also have that IM, if that is the cause.

You've got a valid point here but the wire in the amp isn't that long is it? So as long as the signals are divided right after the amp's terminals, you can keep those IM or any other adverse effect to a minimum.

Anyway, I know you've finally read up on this thing, you are softening up , now you probably agree there is a difference electrically. You just don't believe it has any audible effect, and I am not going to argue with you on that because I have not seen, read, or experience anything to support such argument.

 

[PENG]

IMO, to encourage this as reality based on such a poor comparison as his.

Bosco claimed that his hearing sense is very heightened

Yes he did. But as I have posted, testing blind people do not bear this out:

R. Bucklein, 'The Audibility of Frequency Response Irregularities,' JAES vol 29, no 3, 1981, page 126-131.

Okay, you are right. I didn't mean to encourage him to believe his perceived difference was real. I meant to express my belief in the possibility (just a possibility) that he might have in fact heard a difference. Edit: Also, if he did, it could have been partially due to the theory/reasons cited by many speaker manufacturers (not wire manufacturers). To get to the truth, one would need to do a comparison properly and thoroughly.

 

[bosco_62]

Hey guys I want to ask you who are you talking about when this was stated:
"Do you only believe in certain voodoo, or all of it? If he said he spent $1000 on wire risers, would you say "Good, you think it made a difference, that's all that matters"?

If he buys a little pepple to stick on his amp, that costs $100, and thinks it makes a difference, would you say "Good, go for it"?"

Who are you talking about? I didn't spend $1000 on wire risers. And when said I believe I have hightend hearing I said that because I rellie more on my hearing instead of my vision. I never said it was a proven fact that blind people have better hearing it was just my opinion of myself and no one else.

Don't let this be the center of your discussion. Everyone is over analizing, look it sounds like some of you are trying to find any reason why I shouldn't have heard a difference. When the fact is that I heard a difference wheather you can except it or not. And by the way I never said I heard a HUGE difference.
Good chattin' guys

 

[Nick250]

The comments you referenced were hypothetical I think. And to speak to the last paragraph of your post above, you asked for opinions on what is a controversial subject and you got them. I think it's one of those be careful what you ask for situations.

Nick

 

[PENG]

The comments you referenced were hypothetical I think. And to speak to the last paragraph of your post above, you asked for opinions on what is a controversial subject and you got them. I think it's one of those be careful what you ask for situations.

Nick

Nick, I agree with what you are saying, often time I do feel people are a little quick to dismiss what people are hearing or not. I think it is fine to question or express doubt about the comparison methodologies but people shouldn't be so sure about what people heard or not. Regarding this very topic, I know the scientific/engineering basis cited by many loudspeaker manufacturers do not mean a human being has the ability to hear the difference resulting in bi-wiring. However, a hundred years ago, most people probably would not believe a human could land on the moon even though they already knew and believe in Newton's law of motions. Now this is hypothetical and not even relevant so please be kind!

It is good to see that Bosco ends his last response saying "Good chattin' guys". And, I hope Sheep won't get mad at me now.........

P.S. Have you tried bi-amping your 3806 yet, more power for your digms

 

[Nick250]

P.S. Have you tried bi-amping your 3806 yet, more power for your digms

Bi-amping you ask. I still have my heals dug in on no external amplification. I must say that I am tempted sometimes. If I did get external amps I don't think I could make mention of it here. Marty would bawl me out and moose would gloat.

Nick

 

[billy p]

I must say that I am tempted sometimes. If I did get external amps I don't think I could make mention of it here. Marty would bawl me out and moose would gloat.

Nick

I've read enough posts, your CORRECT .

 

[highfihoney]

If you hear a difference when bi wiring then go for it,just because something cant be proven in a series of db tests does not mean that its not benificial to improving a systems sound.

 

[mtrycrafts]

To get to the truth, one would need to do a comparison properly and thoroughly.

Yes, absolutely
Outcome makes no difference to me under those conditions. Facts are facts then.

 

[mtrycrafts]

When the fact is that I heard a difference wheather you can except it or not. And by the way I never said I heard a HUGE difference.
Good chattin' guys

No. The fact is you perceived something. Finding out if you really heard something need a better listening protocol than what you performed.
Yes, the fact is, you knew what you were listening to; you didn't need to see anything. It wasn't a double blind test, it wasn't sample sufficiently for a statistical analysis. It is well known that bias, internal, uncontrolled, will alter perception.
People do hear all sorts of things when there is no sound to hear, or, when no equipment is in fact changed. Human psychology and bias. This is what we are talking about and need to control for for better, reliable results.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Bi-amping you ask. I still have my heals dug in on no external amplification. I must say that I am tempted sometimes. If I did get external amps I don't think I could make mention of it here. Marty would bawl me out and moose would gloat.

Nick

You still don't understand me after all this time. I want you to enjoy this hobby. If bi-amping brings that, great. Just be careful of testable claims

Actually, bi-amping the proper way, no passive crossovers what so ever, only active, is the way to go. That, you will hear a difference from.

 

[mtrycrafts]

One more question

. However, a hundred years ago, most people probably would not believe a human could land on the moon even though they already knew and believe in Newton's law of motions. Now this is hypothetical and not even relevant so please be kind!

I will be kind. You are one of the best here

But, how would this be a a comparison here?
A 100 years ago, technology was not even on the horizon to do this. On the other hand, we can test now what we can hear. A 100 years from now, evolution may not be so kind to us with all the noise pollution, no reason to increase sensitivity to survive. Hearing may be worse by then.

 

[Nick250]

You still don't understand me after all this time. I want you to enjoy this hobby. If bi-amping brings that, great. Just be careful of testable claims
D

It was tongue in cheek Marty No problems

Nick

 

[mtrycrafts]

It was tongue in cheek Marty No problems

Nick

Oh, that is mucho better

 

[mtrycrafts]

Axiom Audio tech paper

many manufacturers including Axiom and B&W claimed it could in some cases, improve the sound. Anyone can read the detailed explanation on their sites.
.

Here is a paragraph from their experimentation:

Will it sound any different if you biwire? Some users think it does, but I've never heard any differences, nor have any of our laboratory measurements or scientifically controlled double blind listening tests ever demonstrated there are audible differences. Axiom includes the extra terminals as a nod to those enthusiasts who believe that biwiring results in audible benefits and for the bi-ampers.

So, it appears that they have conducted some DBT with no audible differences from their speakers at least.
And, they seem to just accept market forces when they include this capability on their speakers.

I had similar feedback from Paradigm when I called them. While it is in the manual and on their speakers, they cannot support its benefits from controlled experimentation.