Onkyo TX-NR609 THX Select2 Plus 7.2 Network Receiver First Look

[jeannot]

Can anyone explain what WRAT is technically, beyond an acronym?

What Range does that refer to? Frequency? Dynamic? Headroom?
Is it about the power supply, the amp topology?

Or is it like "push-pull", a term that can be used for virtually all amplifiers with a + and - power supply?

FYI I found something doing research:
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/technology/glossary/wrat_02.html

Apparently WRAT is a set of three technologies: Low Negative Feedback, Better ground "star" design, High current output stage. It is claimed to be "innovative". It certainly was in the 80s. But, since I believe in that nonsense I have to say: Kudos Onkyo.

 

[davidtwotrees]

The op reminds me of LOTR.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Can anyone explain what WRAT is technically, beyond an acronym?

What Range does that refer to? Frequency? Dynamic? Headroom?
Is it about the power supply, the amp topology?

Or is it like "push-pull", a term that can be used for virtually all amplifiers with a + and - power supply?

As you probably discovered in your research, WRAT algorithms allow, according to the company's rhetoric, all different kinds of applications and efficient power mapping and operations through their products' amplifier sections; there is the element of providing headroom as the volume increases, and allowing clarity and detail to be maintained during low volume listening, and things like that...

If it actually works, who knows...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

The op reminds me of LOTR.

The OP of this thread? This thread was begun by a member of Audioholics' administration staff that does the reviews...

Were you were referring to the "Lordoftherings" who was better known as "Bob" from Canada who used to be an active member here?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

When I ask why the 609 does not have pre-outs, I'm not being honest, because I know why. Fact is, the pre-out circuitry and connectors cost about $3, and we could probably see the empty holes on the PCB with the traces for these components... They have to sell the higher models, simple as that.

These companies could probably produce a receiver with virtually all the processor features any of us would want (and a headphones-class amplifier), for $400 and still make money. A fair argument is that the money they make with the bigger models probably financed the R&D for the lower ones. In understand all that.

I am just expressing frustration, and I do apologize about that. I just can't get over the $3 thing :-(

I wasn't questioning your motives or anything like that with regard to your preout comment -- I was actually just explaining to others why the decision is sometimes made to leave preouts off pieces of gear at this price level; I was also offering the counter perspective in that there are some enthusiasts, such as myself, who are unfortunately on a stupid restricted budget who need to buy something at the 600-series' price point and yet now, years later, could benefit by adding external amplification but there are no preouts to do so...

Hence, why I called it a bit of a "Pandora's Box" syndrome...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Absolutely right. I have a 606 which I LOVE (while I cross my fingers hoping that the HDMI board doesn't give out), and it would be absolutely killer with pre-outs. I may upgrade this year just to get them and, if you're looking for pre-outs, the 708 (or soon-coming 709 and RC370) are the best bang for the buck by far.

I'm secretly hoping that Denon lets pre-outs trickle down lower in their AVR series this year but, if not, I'll have a new Onk on the way.

I hear ya, Sugar...thanks for the backup!

What is it -- I am just curious -- about your 606 that you love so much? I mean, I like my 605 for what it is, and it has never let me down in all the years I'm running it, but I would sure like to get a more powerful AVR! But essentially, like you, I'd feel it would be a killer situation if these receivers had preouts (as Jean said, it's a $3 piece of gear they would need to add to these things; it shouldn't be a big deal) so we could retain their pre/pro abilities with the Master Audio/TrueHD decoding and such yet add much more power to the output...

There was a time I wouldn't consider a receiver brand outside of Onkyo or Denon, as I was lead to believe they were doing the absolute best in this area of the market -- now, I have read on other fanatic forums, Denon's quality seems to have gone way down, with receivers that do not put out anywhere near their rated power specs (I know this is true about a lot of brands, but Denon appears to be doing this obnoxiously now)...

Just something for you to chew on.

 

[Sugarbear]

I hear ya, Sugar...thanks for the backup!

What is it -- I am just curious -- about your 606 that you love so much? I mean, I like my 605 for what it is, and it has never let me down in all the years I'm running it, but I would sure like to get a more powerful AVR! But essentially, like you, I'd feel it would be a killer situation if these receivers had preouts (as Jean said, it's a $3 piece of gear they would need to add to these things; it shouldn't be a big deal) so we could retain their pre/pro abilities with the Master Audio/TrueHD decoding and such yet add much more power to the output...

There was a time I wouldn't consider a receiver brand outside of Onkyo or Denon, as I was lead to believe they were doing the absolute best in this area of the market -- now, I have read on other fanatic forums, Denon's quality seems to have gone way down, with receivers that do not put out anywhere near their rated power specs (I know this is true about a lot of brands, but Denon appears to be doing this obnoxiously now)...

Just something for you to chew on.

Well, thing I love about my 606 is simply that it works as advertised. I've had exactly zero issues with it since I got it in June 2008. Both stereo and multichannel sound great, HD decoding is flawless, Audyssey works well in my room... just no dramas whatsoever.

I'm suffering from upgraditis though and I hate the fact that I'd need to replace it in order to add external amps. I might not need the extra power (PSB Image LCR with PSB Alpha surrounds), but I want it.

I was only looking at Denon since I wanted to try another brand (just for kicks) and my Audyssey requirement leaves me with only a few options. Since Denon and Marantz don't do preouts until you're spending over $1K for your AVR, I'll likely have to stay with Onkyo.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Well, thing I love about my 606 is simply that it works as advertised. I've had exactly zero issues with it since I got it in June 2008. Both stereo and multichannel sound great, HD decoding is flawless, Audyssey works well in my room... just no dramas whatsoever.

I'm suffering from upgraditis though and I hate the fact that I'd need to replace it in order to add external amps. I might not need the extra power (PSB Image LCR with PSB Alpha surrounds), but I want it.

I was only looking at Denon since I wanted to try another brand (just for kicks) and my Audyssey requirement leaves me with only a few options. Since Denon and Marantz don't do preouts until you're spending over $1K for your AVR, I'll likely have to stay with Onkyo.

Thanks for your explanation on this; indeed, your reasoning for wanting to keep the trusty old 606 is extremely similar to my justification for holding onto my 605, except I don't use Audyssey...

 

[bikemig]

I've been looking at the HK AVR 3600 because it has pre-outs and no networking. I've got a computer so I don't need the streaming; plus I use Apple and most of the networking receivers are DLNA certified which is a pain for me. Otherwise I'd be looking at the Onkyo as well.

 

[jeannot]

Wanting to know more about WRAT, I downloaded the service manual for the TX-NR708, 808, 1008.

Looking at the power amplifier design, I can tell with some certainty that the amplifier circuitry takes no input from the processing section other than the main signal itself. It really is, as I thought, a plain amplifier. No obvious trace of new, esoteric innovations looking at the circuit.

However looking at the Onkyo site, they claim that WRAT is about low Negative Feedback, and wide frequency response. That cannot be visible looking at a schematic, but I can say that the topology is quite impressive: Differential input with constant current source, second stage is also differential, and converts beautifully symmetrically to the push-pull stages.

That design is much better and costly then my Denon 3808CI for example, that has no constant current source at the single differential input stage, and a single transistor common emitter 2nd stage with passive component transition from the first stage to push pull...

Optimizing the open-loop distortion, bandwidth and stability of power amplifiers is an old and proven idea. Harman Kardon pioneered that in the 80s, when they (or someone else around that time) discovered and went after TIM (Transient Inter-modulation Distortion)

In conclusion, it appears that as far as the power amp is concerned, WRAT is just a new word for a decades-old better design philosophy of designing a better open-loop power amplifier, resulting (after NFB) in a more stable, lower TIM amplifier.

 

[wizdaz]

Wanting to know more about WRAT, I downloaded the service manual for the TX-NR708, 808, 1008.

I'm choosing between Onkyo TX-NR808 and Denon AVR-3311 and looking hard for any info about their amplifiers.

Can you share your service manual for Onkyo TX-NR808 with me? If not complete doc, but at least pages about ampilfier?

Also do you have any info about Denon AVR-3311 amplifier? I can't find any info on net about what components and scheme it have...

 

[Natter]

I recommended tx-nr609

+ Strong and dynamic acoustic
+ Excellent upconversion of SD signals
+ DLNA streaming and access to Internet radio
+ Chic, timeless look
+ Solid build quality
- Touch Point the remote control

and more review about processing, sound, video, connection etc. of onkyo tx-nr609

 

[ctroys12]

Onkyo TX-NR609 vs. Onkyo TX-NR808

I'm looking at the Onkyo TX-NR609 ($319 del) vs. Onkyo TX-NR808 (at $529 del), and would value the opinions of anyone more tech savvy than I.

I've currently got a Denon AVR-1912 (90 W), setup with Klipsch RF-82 ii fronts and the RF-62 ii (all 150w rms/600w Peak), with a Klipsch RW-12d sub (340 W RMS), and absolutely love the sound for sports, TV, Blu-Ray, Play Station 3 slim (and listening to Music Unlimited thru PS3).

I started to consider the NR609 to stick in my upstairs bedroom so I wouldn't have to listen to BluRays thru my TV speakers, but then my visions got more grand as I wondered, AM I CHEATING MY RF-82 II's BY NOT GIVING THEM ENOUGH POWER? Hence, I started looking at the NR808 at 135W.

My perhaps ignorant questions follow:

1. Would the NR808 be a significant upgrade to the Denon AVR 1912 for my main Home Theater room, or is the quality and reliability of the 1912 worth trading for the extra power in the NR808? (and if I'm not tech savvy, would the 808 be wasted on my ignorance in setting up a more loaded receiver?)

2. I like the idea of a PC input on the receiver. Currently I can hook my PC up to my TV, which is great visually, yet I can't be in TV mode and receiver mode at once on my TV, so that leaves me with weak audio coming from my laptop. Is it possible on the 609 and 808 to run video and audio from my laptop to the receiver, and enjoy the full experience of watching and listening to the latest version of a TV show that is only available through a PC--but now on the big screen with great audio?

3. I can't hard wire ethernet to either my main home theater or my weak bedroom setup. Does the UWF-1 Wireless LAN connector, or similar or similar product work on both the NR609 and NR808, or only the 609, and if it "works" how well, and over what distance? Or if I get Question #2 set up properly and can jam from my laptop, then is this absolutely redundant anyway, since I can stream other music through my PS3 already?

4. Lastly, if either the 609 or 808 have issues that would make you stay away from either of them, please let me know.

Thank you so much in advance! I have found the wonderful sharing of knowledge, friendliness, and comraderie to be amazing on these forums. You experts are the best!

Happy Holidays to all, and may bigger/better AV toys come your way over the holidays! --Troy

 

[Adam]

Hi, Troy, and welcome to the forum! I encourage you to start your own thread on this topic, as it has potential to grow well beyond a discussion of the 609 - and this thread is supposed to focus on the 609 and the AH review of it.

I'll throw in answers to some of your questions (and I'm using the same numbers as your questions):

2. Yes, you can play audio from a laptop on a receiver and pass video from a laptop through a receiver, depending on what types of connections the laptop and receiver have. You can also run video directly to the TV from the laptop, and run audio from the laptop to the receiver. I do both of those. If your laptop has an HDMI output, you should be all set. What type of audio/video outputs does your laptop have available?

3. I don't know if the UWF-1 works on either receiver, but that should be easy to find on the Onkyo website. I can say that there are a number of products that would let you connect a wireless network to a component with only an ethernet port. There are wireless adapters with one or more available ethernet ports, and there are power line adapters that will transmit the signal over your electrical lines.

I'll be happy to answer any questions on those, but again, I encourage you to start your own thread.

 

[ctroys12]

Thanks

Adam, Thanks for your feedback. I'm going with the Onkyo 609, putting it my bedroom and leaving well enough alone with my main home theater. I'd just get in trouble with the neighbors with a more powerful amp feeding my speakers. I appreciate your input. Happy Holidays! --Troy

 

[Adam]

Happy Holidays! --Troy

Thanks, and same to you!