OLD amp Vs NEW amp - Yamaha AX-1090 vs Yamaha A-S801

3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there almost always is ;).
Like you, I don't know what the auditory affect is. It would be an interesting experiment. My gut feel is if its wrong in theory, then it should be avoided in practice.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Like you, I don't know what the auditory affect is. It would be an interesting experiment. My gut feel is if its wrong in theory, then it should be avoided in practice.
I agree when it comes to wiring dual drivers in series vs. parallel.

But I can think of other features in speaker building that are considered theoretically better, but we rarely see them done well in practice. Two examples:
  • Tweeters mounted coaxially in a woofer. Everyone will point to the KEF LS50 speakers as the example, but there are many other 2-way speakers with separate woofers and tweeters that perform very well.

  • Passive analog crossovers vs. active digital crossovers. This is endlessly discussed and debated, but in fact there are very few, if any, commercially sold home audio speakers with active digital crossovers.
 
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paul.arhitex

paul.arhitex

Audioholic Intern
I agree when it comes to wiring dual drivers in series vs. parallel.

But I can think of other features in speaker building that are considered theoretically better, but we rarely see them done well in practice. Two examples:
  • Tweeters mounted coaxially in a woofer. Everyone will point to the KEF LS50 speakers as the example, but there are many other 2-way speakers with separate woofers and tweeters that perform very well.

  • Passive analog crossovers vs. active digital crossovers. This is endlessly discussed and debated, but in fact there are very few, if any, commercially sold home audio speakers with active digital crossovers.

i think if everyone in the business would respect every rule there will be just 3-4 types of loudspeakers on the market -
but as we know we can see all kind of shapes and forms and number of drivers out there from very very veeery expensive brands - brands that are doing audiophile rated products (and yes i know that more than half is snake oil just to ask more money from the consumer)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Your speaker construction aside, am still curious why you are looking at integrated amps when your need seems to be simply a power amp?
 
paul.arhitex

paul.arhitex

Audioholic Intern
Your speaker construction aside, am still curious why you are looking at integrated amps when your need seems to be simply a power amp?
cuz i don't know exactly what is the difference between them and the benefits - and i imagine that power amps are much more expensive
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
cuz i don't know exactly what is the difference between them and the benefits - and i imagine that power amps are much more expensive
Power amps simply amplify a signal from a pre-amp or source; the integrated amp offers a built-in pre-amp and source management (for multiple sources, maybe even a phono stage for a turntable) in addition to a power amp. Economies of scale and location would determine which is available at a better price; here in the US a power amp is the cheaper and easier way to go. I'd suggest something like the Behringer A500, for example, believe that is readily available in Europe, assuming your larger system has an avr with appropriate pre-outs to use an external amp in the first place....I use Crown XLS Drivecore amps for cost effective power amps.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I agree when it comes to wiring dual drivers in series vs. parallel.

But I can think of other features in speaker building that are considered theoretically better, but we rarely see them done well in practice. Two examples:
  • Tweeters mounted coaxially in a woofer. Everyone will point to the KEF LS50 speakers as the example, but there are many other 2-way speakers with separate woofers and tweeters that perform very well.
Having recently owned KEF ls50's for 3 days, I'd like to comment on the first of these. In theory, coaxial drivers should, improve imaging, but adding the weight of the tweeter to the mid-woofer and being forced to use the mid-woofer cone as a wave guide does no favors. I believe it is a design choice/compromise more than something that should be accepted as a generally better design.
I can state that the coaxial drivers do indeed offer amazing imaging. I could close my eyes and pin-point the location much better than I ever have heard before, and IMHO, I don't think any non-coaxial speaker could do that.
Listening to solo sax, trumpet, or trombone on the ls50's allowed the instrument/player to solidify like I have never experienced (well I'll reserve electrostatics until I compare them side by side)! In the showroom, I could find no fault with them and did notice the improved imaging as being special. Once I got them home where I could level match and switch instantly between speakers, even the "lowly" Philharmonic AA's beat them for detail and fullness! I would pick the ls50's over the AA's, but the lackings of the ls50's were obvious with the AA's in the room. Comparing the ls50 to the RBH 41B-se was the nail in the ls50's coffin (to my ear)! The RBH brings enough detail beyond the AA's to the point that almost every time I switched, the RBH sounded better.
To further clarify, a solo brass instrument (which is directional) took great advantage of the imaging ability of the KEF's; however piano (which has sound radiating in all directions) sounded comparatively "thin" while the RBH (and the AA's) provided fuller spectrum and the detail of the ambiance of having a piano in the room. Part of this effect I suspect comes from the lack of even dispersion from the tweeter being mounted in the back of the mid-woofer cone. The breathiness of Norah Jones - "Don't know why" really exacerbated a "horn" type sound out of the ls50's revealing a weakness of the waveguide, IMHO.
I found the KEF's strengths to be imaging and transients in the upper bass to lower midrange.
The good transients are a bit of an enigma because they seemed poor in upper midrange and higher.

So in conclusion, I think coaxial drivers have their advantages, but not without adding problems.

Why does KEF put the tweeter in the "pit" of the mid cone? Is it a phase coherence thing? Cheap car speakers have the tweeter on a metal brace that spans the mid. That would probably remedy some of the dispersion issue.

I really cannot comment on the active speaker situation, it seems that properly executed ones in home audio are indeed rare. I will, however point out that Floyd Toole covets the (discontinued) active JBL M2's. If Floyd considers them the best, they probably sound pretty good. He has probably heard and compared more speakers with a better trained ear than most anyone on the planet! (the passive M2's don't seem to catch his interest).
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I really cannot comment on the active speaker situation, it seems that properly executed ones in home audio are indeed rare. I will, however point out that Floyd Toole covets the (discontinued) active JBL M2's. If Floyd considers them the best, they probably sound pretty good. He has probably heard and compared more speakers with a better trained ear than most anyone on the planet! (the passive M2's don't seem to catch his interest).
FWIW their little brothers (sisters?), the LSR 305, 308, 705, 708 are pretty well liked from what I've read.

My dream active speakers are the Seaton Catalyst 12Cs, tho.
 
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paul.arhitex

paul.arhitex

Audioholic Intern
Power amps simply amplify a signal from a pre-amp or source; the integrated amp offers a built-in pre-amp and source management (for multiple sources, maybe even a phono stage for a turntable) in addition to a power amp. Economies of scale and location would determine which is available at a better price; here in the US a power amp is the cheaper and easier way to go. I'd suggest something like the Behringer A500, for example, believe that is readily available in Europe, assuming your larger system has an avr with appropriate pre-outs to use an external amp in the first place....I use Crown XLS Drivecore amps for cost effective power amps.
but can u have the same fidelity, good THD at those powers? because these that u showed me look more like amps suited for events/parties or a bar where the fidelity and the audiophile quality are not necesar.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
but can u have the same fidelity, good THD at those powers?
Absolutely. You're correct that in the realm of pro amps, low noise is less a priority than headroom, but some pro amps are on par with consumer gear for low noise. The Crown xls drivecore series provides a case in point. The lower level models have noise measurements inferior to most consumer gear, but from the 1500 model and up, the specs are excellent.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
but can u have the same fidelity, good THD at those powers? because these that u showed me look more like amps suited for events/parties or a bar where the fidelity and the audiophile quality are not necesar.
Sure. As was said, some may exhibit noise floor issues with extremely sensitive speakers; there's a guy on AVS (blazar) who has Avantgarde horn speakers with very high sensitivity, like 110 dB, and the only SQ issue he had with Crown XLS amps was noise floor in a very quiet room (some hissing), but he also had issues with several "audiophile" pre-amps and amps as well (even Emotiva's history includes similar issues). With your speakers doubt that is an issue, I have similar sensitivity speakers and no issues with the XLS. The Behringer has been used in a fairly well known blind test here http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm.
 
paul.arhitex

paul.arhitex

Audioholic Intern
Sure. As was said, some may exhibit noise floor issues with extremely sensitive speakers; there's a guy on AVS (blazar) who has Avantgarde horn speakers with very high sensitivity, like 110 dB, and the only SQ issue he had with Crown XLS amps was noise floor in a very quiet room (some hissing), but he also had issues with several "audiophile" pre-amps and amps as well (even Emotiva's history includes similar issues). With your speakers doubt that is an issue, I have similar sensitivity speakers and no issues with the XLS. The Behringer has been used in a fairly well known blind test here http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm.
hehe i read the link that u sent / so i can go with TWO BEHRINGER A500 and i will have 600W 8ohm(in bridged) for each Amp OR i could buy one CROWN XLS 2500W with 2 x 450W 8ohms
Both variants will cost me around $400.

No more need for expensive Emotiva monoblocks
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
hehe i read the link that u sent / so i can go with TWO BEHRINGER A500 and i will have 600W 8ohm(in bridged) for each Amp OR i could buy one CROWN XLS 2500W with 2 x 450W 8ohms
Both variants will cost me around $400.

No more need for expensive Emotiva monoblocks
Absolutely a good way to go. The Crowns do have fans but I never heard them without putting my ear literally up to the front of the unit and even then it's faint. The Behringer is fan-less I believe. Amp power for less is a good thing....lets you spend on important things like speakers and subs.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
The behringer is fan less, the massive heat sinks do well dispelling heat I use one in my music only system. The specs are quoted on most sites are not RMS, here are the numbers

Specifications: • Output power (RMS, 1 kHz @ 1% THD): Stereo mode (both channels driven): 125 watts RMS x 2 @ 8 ohms, 185 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms; Bridged mono: 375 watts RMS x 1 @ 8 ohms • Output power (peak power, 1 kHz): Stereo mode (both channels driven): 175 watts x 2 @ 8 ohms, 300 watts x 2 @ 4 ohms; Bridged mono: 600 watts x 1 @ 8 ohms • Weight: 18.5 lbs. • Dimensions: 4" H x 19" W x 10.85" D
 
paul.arhitex

paul.arhitex

Audioholic Intern
The behringer is fan less, the massive heat sinks do well dispelling heat I use one in my music only system. The specs are quoted on most sites are not RMS, here are the numbers

Specifications: • Output power (RMS, 1 kHz @ 1% THD): Stereo mode (both channels driven): 125 watts RMS x 2 @ 8 ohms, 185 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 ohms; Bridged mono: 375 watts RMS x 1 @ 8 ohms • Output power (peak power, 1 kHz): Stereo mode (both channels driven): 175 watts x 2 @ 8 ohms, 300 watts x 2 @ 4 ohms; Bridged mono: 600 watts x 1 @ 8 ohms • Weight: 18.5 lbs. • Dimensions: 4" H x 19" W x 10.85" D
ooh so is less than what i was thinking - yea the real power rating should be calculated at 8ohms 20hz-20khz at a THD equal or lower than 0.1%
 
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