Oh no, not cables again, but...

[mtrycrafts]

BTW, it's rather interesting that you bring up Pass and Yamaha amplifiers. A while back, an infamous ABX test took place that tested an audiophile's claims that he could easily pass an ABX test because he had the test done on his equipment, in his home, where he was comfortable. The contender was a low cost Yamaha integrated.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl248767154d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=501fl6$ac3@oxy.rust.net&rnum=1

-Chris

Yes, and 3 people, self proclaimed 'golden ears' could not differntiate them, LOL $300 vs $15K

 

[mtrycrafts]

As for you, mtrycrafts, you seem to have more questions than answers.

Yes, I have infinite questions, don't you?


My motivations are simple -- I only sell what I believe in,

Of course you do. But, it is still a belief only, not evidenced based knowledge, right??? And, no matter how secure you are, money is a motivator, or you would nopt be selling but enjoy your retirement.



they will come back and refer others to me.

I thou8ght money was not the motivator? You are in business, no matter what. You do make a profit, I presume, not out of the goodness of your hart, make nothing, right?






As for data... You seem to have the corner on it so let me in on it. Teach me something. Bask me in your wisdom. Tell me what the audible issues are and talk to me about psychoacoustics. I may be new here, but I've been around the block. I'm also pretty quick to understand. For example, I gather from reading your responses all over this site that you seem to be fairly argumentative.

I seriously dfoubt you are after the facts. If you were, there is plenty of resources for you to check out about psychoacoustics, DBT protocol, evidence, you name it. let me know when you are serious about learning, perhaps I will post a few citations. But, I rather not waste my time if I don't really have to.
You can start by reading all the test and technical articles at this site. I thought that you would already have done that and your questins answered, no??

I'm MUCH MORE interested in learning something that will help me do my job better.


I doubt you will be selling Home Depot 12ga speaker wires from here on out. That is not a money maker, nor are the interconnects that came with the component, right?




****************

Why does biwire sound better than straight wire?
Why does solid core sound better than stranded?
Why can I hear a difference between my AQ and Monster?
What data do any of you have that type of metal, type of dielectric, and configuration of conductors have no audible effect on cables?
If it has an measurable electrical effect but no one can hear it, does it matter?
Is any kind of hearing test more important than electrical measurements?

Seriously, inquiring minds want to know...

You don't want to know the answers to these. You will be in the poor house no matter how you slice and dice it.

 

[cinema69]

I do agree that cable hype is more fantasy than truth, but I have to say that sometimes we forget that if given an exotic cable to be tested on lower end equipment, it will not perform the way it can, only because the equipment can not reproduce that quality of sound.

 

[Sheep]

I do agree that cable hype is more fantasy than truth, but I have to say that sometimes we forget that if given an exotic cable to be tested on lower end equipment, it will not perform the way it can, only because the equipment can not reproduce that quality of sound.

The main purpose of a cable is not to improve the sound of your equipment, but to limit the losses. It doesn't matter what gear you use it on. the cable should not affect the sound of the amplifier unless it was measured using inferior cables.

Most Mid Fi gear (like my stuff for example) does not change going from cable to cable unless the cables are junk (Ex: 24ga. speaker wire). Same for High end gear. All I want to do is limit the losses from cables going from one piece of equipment to another.

SheepStar

 

[Buckle-meister]

The main purpose of a cable is not to improve the sound...but to limit the losses.

Couldn't you say the same about every component in the chain?

 

[jonnythan]

This whole conversation is hilarious.

I'm much more into computers than A/V science. I think that if a $5, 10-foot cable can hit every pixel on a 1600x1200 LCD screen perfectly, then anyone wanting to sell me $50 component cables or $200 HDMI cables is a lying jerk and better not try to sell me anything. If a $3 SATA cable can copy the entire contents of a CD, bit-for-bit perfect, in about a minute, then someone trying to sell a $200 "digital coaxial" audio cable is full of it.

I like how they charge higher prices for HDMI and DVI cables than they do for analog cables, too. I guess if it's more advanced and expensive technology, clearly you need more advanced and expensive cabling to go with it.

Last week at Best Buy there was a comparison set up.. two of the same TV, one with $100 Monster component cables properly calibrated, one with a 28AWG composite video cable with the brightness cranked up and the contrast cranked down. At first I didn't get what was going on, so I asked the salesman if they were advertising some type of calibration or something. His reply? "Most people don't know they need $100 video cables."

Please. You want to sell $8000 speaker cables? Sell them to someone stupid, cause I ain't buyin.

 

[Sheep]

Couldn't you say the same about every component in the chain?

Yes and no. Cables don't do anything but carry data. They don't do any converting or processing.

SheepStar

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Last week at Best Buy there was a comparison set up.. two of the same TV, one with $100 Monster component cables properly calibrated, one with a 28AWG composite video cable with the brightness cranked up and the contrast cranked down. At first I didn't get what was going on, so I asked the salesman if they were advertising some type of calibration or something. His reply? "Most people don't know they need $100 video cables."

You should have asked the sales rep to swap the cables on the tv's.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You should have asked the sales rep to swap the cables on the tv's.

Or, have the salesman bring up the tv menu on the settings, both at the same time to compare

 

[jonnythan]

You should have asked the sales rep to swap the cables on the tv's.

I was tempted to, but I was seeing a movie with someone and didn't want to start anything

 

[tbewick]

This whole conversation is hilarious.

I'm much more into computers than A/V science. I think that if a $5, 10-foot cable can hit every pixel on a 1600x1200 LCD screen perfectly, then anyone wanting to sell me $50 component cables or $200 HDMI cables is a lying jerk and better not try to sell me anything. If a $3 SATA cable can copy the entire contents of a CD, bit-for-bit perfect, in about a minute, then someone trying to sell a $200 "digital coaxial" audio cable is full of it.

I'm sorry, but this type of response annoys me because it is wrong. I have to admit that I used to be of this opinion, that computers, networks, etc. are digital, CD is digital, therefore they are the same/i.e. perfect mediums of transmission. They are not the same and work on different principles. More expensive cables are better electronically. Thankfully over the short distances of home cinema cabling, the transmission channels should be of good enough design to reject distortion/noise/jitter etc. etc.. Therefore the apparent effectiveness of using cheap cabling. I still think the rule of thumb of spending 10% of you budget on cables is a sound one - video cables especially.

I seriously dfoubt you are after the facts. If you were, there is plenty of resources for you to check out about psychoacoustics, DBT protocol, evidence, you name it. let me know when you are serious about learning, perhaps I will post a few citations. But, I rather not waste my time if I don't really have to.
You can start by reading all the test and technical articles at this site. I thought that you would already have done that and your questins answered, no??

Quite frankly, this is probably the most insulting thing I've ever read on this forum. Do you really think that anyone is wilfully wasting their money on unnecessary equipment? I don't see it as being helpful to anyone dismissing questions like this. Unless you present some evidence yourself substantiating your position, then your views do not hold anymore weight than anyone elses.

As I commented on an earlier thread, there seems to be a reluctance on either side ever to present any physical evidence justifying their opinions. The whole point of gathering good scientific data is so that such pointless bickering becomes unnecessary - the evidence speaks for itself.

 

[jonnythan]

Nope.

SVGA cables are *not* digital and still manage to transmit pixel-perfect data to my 1600x1200x60hz screen.

A 10-foot ANALOG SVGA cable typically costs under $10 and has all the conductors jammed into one bundle.

There's a reason I specifically compared SVGA to component and SATA to SPDIF. Analog-analog and digital-digital.

Plus, HDMI *is* digital.

 

[mulester7]

As I commented on an earlier thread, there seems to be a reluctance on either side ever to present any physical evidence justifying their opinions

.....it's nothing to do with any reluctance on the part of those who report hearings....just as this hobby is nothing to do with science, except for those who "had" to find "something" to get into, and should have chosen hang-gliding considering their apparent lack of being able to differentiate concerning music and reproductive sound qualities....oh, how I have learned to abhore the term DBT Protocol....when I hear it now, I picture some smart-aleck skinny pimpley kid with two-inch thick glasses, who's now a rather goofy acting adult, making other normal persons want to be elsewhere, then again, define normal....I really don't think it's a matter of wanting to know how something works either, as it usually works out to be an avenue of creating controversy for attention....physical evidence, Tbewich?....reviews giving scientific measurements and supposed findings?....I simply don't need or want them....I guess scopes and meters are necessary in the production of our equipment to establish specs to be listed....but as for me, tell me what you hear, describe it as best you can, and I'll be interested possibly enough to run it by my ears....DBT Protocol....pleeeeease....where's my barf-bucket?......

 

[MDS]

....just as this hobby is nothing to do with science...

Mule old buddy I love your determination and stick to it-ness, but 'nothing to do with science'? It's all about science and engineering. Designers don't just randomly assemble parts and listen till it sounds good. So why shouldn't we also take into account some of the science as we evaluate whether or not they have achieved the objective of good sound?

I've seen too many optical illusions in my life to always trust my eyes and therefore I am also open to the possibility that my ears lie to me at times too.

 

[mulester7]

Mule old buddy I love your determination and stick to it-ness, but 'nothing to do with science'? It's all about science and engineering. Designers don't just randomly assemble parts and listen till it sounds good. So why shouldn't we also take into account some of the science as we evaluate whether or not they have achieved the objective of good sound?

I've seen too many optical illusions in my life to always trust my eyes and therefore I am also open to the possibility that my ears lie to me at times too.

.....fair enough, I said scopes and meters were necessary in the production of....my respect for you is large, MDS....my leaning to blindfolds is below zilch....

 

[mulester7]

.....and another point, MDS....since I got 105 more posts than youse, I'm bound to be right, haha....I really mean it, I think you're aces.......

 

[tbewick]

.....it's nothing to do with any reluctance on the part of those who report hearings....just as this hobby is nothing to do with science, except for those who "had" to find "something" to get into, and should have chosen hang-gliding considering their apparent lack of being able to differentiate concerning music and reproductive sound qualities....oh, how I have learned to abhore the term DBT Protocol....when I hear it now, I picture some smart-aleck skinny pimpley kid with two-inch thick glasses, who's now a rather goofy acting adult, making other normal persons want to be elsewhere, then again, define normal....I really don't think it's a matter of wanting to know how something works either, as it usually works out to be an avenue of creating controversy for attention....physical evidence, Tbewich?....reviews giving scientific measurements and supposed findings?....I simply don't need or want them....I guess scopes and meters are necessary in the production of our equipment to establish specs to be listed....but as for me, tell me what you hear, describe it as best you can, and I'll be interested possibly enough to run it by my ears....DBT Protocol....pleeeeease....where's my barf-bucket?......

LOL, - great stuff. I'm also fed up with scientific nonsense (it gives me a headache) and I'll just pin my flag up - like speakers, hate cables (£30 for a digital electrical cable - you're having a laugh!). Amplifiers are boring though I would buy a Quad 909 pre/power amp if I could, just because of Peter Walker's genius.

 

[highfihoney]

over the years ive spent an obscene amount of cash on gear,solid state, tube, hybrid, speakers up the wazoo, you name it, i like to try new things so when i found out about exotic cables i wasnt oposed to trying them out & i did, the problem was that i couldnt hear big or real differences.

the biggest ( and only ) difference i ever heard between cables in any of my systems was in a high power tube system & then what i heard was more like very slight adjustments in tone,when i switch amps or preamps the differences in sound are pretty noticable to me but with cables the benifits (if any) were so miniscule that i gave up on them.

ive argued this subject to the point of exhaustion with a few of my friends who believe in a support exotic cables & they always say the same thing, if you cant hear a difference either you need to get your hearing checked or your gear isnt "resolving" enough,what a load of bull !

my advice to people who are new to this hobby who are thinking about taking the plunge into big$$$ cables is that before you bend all the way over & spread em invest your cash in better gear instead of expecting cables or a power cord to give you an upgrade in sound.

 

[Sheep]

.....and another point, MDS....since I got 105 more posts than youse, I'm bound to be right, haha....I really mean it, I think you're aces.......

So that would make me what?

SheepStar

 

[mulester7]

So that would make me what?

SheepStar

.....duces wild.....