Oh no, not cables again, but...

[WmAx]

MDS, WmAx, and all, here's some entertainment. I'm not sure whether you'll laugh incredibly hard, or have a heart attack. So this is a warning

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

Yes, it is laughable. But not suprising. Apparently just a document by yet another engineer who has jumped to conclusions and is totally ignorant of scientific methodology as it applies to perceptual matters.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

MDS, WmAx, and all, here's some entertainment. I'm not sure whether you'll laugh incredibly hard, or have a heart attack. So this is a warning

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

Thanks for the warning.

How about laughing so hard one gets a hart attack.

 

[sploo]

Superb post jaxvon.

I particularly love:

"In an ABX set-up, the listener does not know whether or not there has been any equipment change at all. ABX testing is not a question of how a fixed but blind “A” compares to a fixed but blind “B”. Because there are too many unknowns, the ABX test becomes primarily an opportunity for embarrass-ment. Context is everything, and the ABX set-up is one very distorted context, much too far removed from the purpose of an audio system. ABX fans believe that a lack of repeatable hierarchy proves there are no valid differences. Others of us believe the same evidence proves that the ABX test is an invalid methodology."

Or to summarise:

"Please don't test our cables in an ABX setup. The unbiased nature of it will show that there's bugger all difference between them and a coat hangar"

 

[Buckle-meister]

What I would like to know is:

Given modern day society's litigious bent, why would any company publish a paper in which its claims were totally (and apparently demonstrably) false?

I do not believe for one moment that any company is that stupid.

Regards

 

[jaxvon]

I think because hi-fi audio is such a niche market that no one pays enough attention to bring legal action against them. With the exception of Monster Cable, no average person has even heard of Audioquest, nor would know what they sell. I simply think it isn't a big enough problem for the lawyers to go after them. Would I like to see it happen? Perhaps, but then we wouldn't have anyone to make fun of

Here are some golden quotes:

There are many ways in which skin-effect causes more distortion in a bundle than in a single over-sized strand. Strands are constantly
changing positions over the length of a cable. Some leave the surface and go inside, others are “rising” to the surface. Since the current density distribution in a conductor cannot
change, some of the current (particularly at higher frequencies) must continually jump to a new strand in order to stay at or near the surface. Unfortunately, the contact between strands is less than perfect. The point of contact between strands is actually a simple circuit that has capacitance, inductance, diode rectification-a whole host of problems. This happens thousands of times in a cable, and causes most of the hashy and gritty sound in many audio cables. This distortion mechanism is dynamic,
extremely complex, and because of oxidation will become worse over time.

Why no gold wire? Because gold has neither low distortion nor low resistance. Gold is used on connectors
because it is a “noble” metal, it doesn’t corrode easily. Because gold is “noble” it is ideal for protecting more vulnerable materials like copper and brass. The nature of gold’s distortion is mellow and pleasant, which makes it preferable to the irritating sonic signature of nickel. A bare copper or brass part will outperform a gold plated part, but only until the metal corrodes. In comparison, high quality thick silver plating actually improves performance. Silver is not noble like gold, but it does resist corrosion and it enhances performance.

Please note that the above quotes are from the PDF file I posted earlier and are (laughably) COPYRIGHT © 2005 THE QUEST GROUP, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

[Buckle-meister]

With the exception of Monster Cable, no average person has even heard of Audioquest, nor would know what they sell.

Perhaps where you live, but not where I do. Here, I'd say Audioquest is about as infamous as Monster.

Regards

 

[mtrycrafts]

Or to summarise:

"Please don't test our cables in an ABX setup. The unbiased nature of it will show that there's bugger all difference between them and a coat hangar"

I just love this. The unbiased nature?

So, you can only differentiate by being biased and know the answers, an open book exam with the answersheet in front of you. Got to love it.

AND, they are the ones who preach science in their paper??? LOL They wouldn't know it when it bit them where it hurts.

 

[Steve1000]

The faith versus science analogly gives snake-oil cables way too much credit

I've always thought this was selling faith a little short. I think the propensity for religous or spiritual faith is hard-wired in us, either because it has some basis in reality or because it has some evolutionary benefit, or perhaps both. Whether or not one particular religious or spiritual belief makes any sense under the scrutiny of science is another question altogether, and is the subject of much angst in the world today.

Snake-oil cables on the other hand have no absolutely no basis in reality and are of no evolutionary benefit, to put it mildly. It's simple-minded fraud, a moral evil (though a relatively mild one as far as evils go), with no redeeming value at all.

Live in shame, cable-pushers.

Snake-oil cables are like religion: some people prefer faith to science.

 

[southeastnavy]

Opinions are like a***oles, and other body parts

There are many of those in this thread.

My comment about not letting truth get in the way of a good story was about you, Jaxvon...

Also, just out of curiosity, what speaker cables do you use in your system? Currently I'm using a combination of 14g Monster Cable stranded wire and
10g common, solid-core household electrical cable.

As for data, no I don't have any -- I'm not an audio reviewer, I'm a salesman! Oh goodness, now the cat's out of the bag!

I believe cables make a difference, and it makes electrical sense. If you knew anything about electronics, you'd know that it does...

But, enough of all that, here's something you'll actually enjoy...
http://stereophile.com/cables/804aq/index.html

"A man dies and goes to hell, and Satan meets him at the gate: "Just this once, I'm going to let a newcomer choose his own torment," he says as he leads the deceased from room to room, opening doors on all manner of abuse—burning, flaying, Lou Reed's The Raven, you name it.

Then Satan opens the door to a room filled with dumpy-looking middle-aged men, chatting amiably and sipping coffee. There are no screams here: only the airy, well-located sounds of Singapore-based vocalist Jacintha, coming from an expensive-looking stereo at one end of the room.

The newcomer glances down and sees that the floor is covered with thousands upon thousands of documents. He picks up one and looks at the heading: a press release from a high-end cable company back on Earth. He drops it like a snake, then looks around at the other sheets of paper. They're all documents from cable companies: press releases, fact sheets, "white papers." From elsewhere in the room a noise catches his attention, and he turns in time to see more sheets of paper tumbling onto the floor from a chute he hadn't noticed before. He glances at some of these new ones, and the names on them are all familiar: AudioQuest, MIT, Monster, Cardas, you name it.

That puts him off a little. But then the newcomer thinks, What the heck? I can handle this. So he volunteers for duty in the hi-fi room. Satan smiles an unreadable smile and leaves him there, locking the door as he goes.

All is well for a minute or two, and then a voice comes over the PA system: "Okay, fellas, coffee break's over. Back to work." The newcomer watches in horror as the other men in the room bend down. They pick up the papers from the floor...

And they start reading them. Dear, sweet, merciful God, they're making us read these things. For all eternity."
Art Dudley, August, 2004
Stereophile review of AudioQuest Cheetah interconnects & Mont Blanc speaker cables

 

[WmAx]

Opinions are like a***oles, and other body parts

There are many of those in this thread.

This is a high quality forum. Please try to keep it that way by not using the derogatory type of response as found above.

-Chris

 

[jaxvon]

I personally use all Belden 5000UE, 12ga cable sans terminations. I plan on adding locking bananas at some point as bare wire is a giant PITA with my receiver (not so on the 2ch gear I've played with).

And as far as your story from Stereophile goes, it doens't have to be that bad. The Audioquest "white paper" is long and ridiculous because they want it to be. Here's the "white paper" on my cable:

SUITABLE APPLICATIONS :
Suitable Applications: Intercom/PA Systems, Sound/Audio Systems, Fire Alarm (For color Red only)(Dual Rated)
PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS :

CONDUCTOR :
Number of Conductors: 2
Total Number of Conductors: 2
AWG: 12
Stranding: 19x25
Conductor Material: BC - Bare Copper

INSULATION :
Insulation Material: PVC - Polyvinyl Chloride
Nom. Insulation Wall Thickness: .014 in.

OVERALL CABLING :
Overall Cabling Lay Length: 4.5 in.
Overall Cabling Twists/ft.: 2.7
Overall Cabling Color Code Chart:
Number Color
1 Black
2 White


OUTER SHIELD :
Outer Shield Material: Unshielded

OUTER JACKET :
Outer Jacket Material: PVC - Polyvinyl Chloride
Outer Jacket Nominal Wall Thickness: .015 in.
Outer Jacket Ripcord: Yes

OVERALL NOMINAL DIAMETER :
Overall Nominal Diameter: .268 in.
MECHANICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
Operating Temperature Range: -20°C To +75°C
UL Temperature Rating: 75°C
Bulk Cable Weight: 53.6 lbs/1000 ft.
Max. Recommended Pulling Tension: 152 lbs.
Min. Bend Radius (Install): 2.6 in.
APPLICABLE SPECIFICATIONS AND AGENCY COMPLIANCE :

APPLICABLE STANDARDS :
NEC/(UL) Specification: CL3R, FPLR
NEC Articles: 725 or 760
EU CE Mark (Y/N): Yes
EU RoHS Compliant (Y/N): Yes
EU RoHS Compliance Date (mm/dd/yyyy):: 04/01/2005

FLAME TEST :
UL Flame Test: UL1666 Vertical Riser

PLENUM/NON-PLENUM :
Plenum (Y/N): N
Plenum Number: 6000UE
ELECTRICAL CHARACTERISTICS :
Nom. Inductance: 0.15 µH/ft
Nom. Capacitance Conductor to Conductor @ 1 KHz: 33.5 pF/ft
Nom. Conductor DC Resistance @ 20 Deg. C: 1.6 Ω/1000 ft
Max. Operating Voltage - UL: 300 V RMS
Max. Recommended Current: 12 Amps per conductor @ 25°C

Facts, and facts only. It tells me everything I need to know about my cable. Speakers? Now that's a WHOLE nother matter.

 

[mulester7]

This is a high quality forum. Please try to keep it that way by not using the derogatory type of response as found above.

-Chris

.....agreed, Chris....and may we also police our handles and avatars, commensurate with high quality standards.....

.....edit....back to cables....not every cable possibility is covered in Radio Shack's Gold Line Series, which has gold-plated connectors and most adequate thicknesses of runs....for those I have to get online and hunt.....

 

[sploo]

I believe cables make a difference, and it makes electrical sense. If you knew anything about electronics, you'd know that it does...

I quite agree that different cables may be different in an electrical sense.

Additionally, many of the claims manufacturers make (e.g. skin effect) are real issues.

However, what they don't tell you is that they make no audible difference whatsoever. If you're transmitting data at MHz speeds, over several miles of cable, then it's probably important. The kind of power drops you're going to get at 20kHz over 10ft are negligible - certainly not audible (fractions of a dB).

When you consider that your room/speaker interaction, and off-axis listening position, are going to result in variations of many dB, anything beyond a good, basic, electrical connection becomes pretty irrelevant.

On a similar topic, if slightly disjointed (but funny): http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2005152631222.gif

 

[mtrycrafts]

My comment about not letting truth get in the way of a good story was about you, Jaxvon...

But the truth got in your way in a big way, didn't it?.

Also, just out of curiosity, what speaker cables do you use in your system?

Ah, the straw man out. Really irrelevant to the issues at hand, isn't it??? Are comparable cables audibly different???



As for data, no I don't have any

Yet you are making unsupported claims??? Interesting, isn't it? How is it different from anything in consumerland???



I'm a salesman! Oh goodness, now the cat's out of the bag!


Yes, so you have a financial interest, nothing more. That is what the marketeers have as well. But don't let facts get in the way though.

I believe cables make a difference,

Ah, just a belief, nothing more. Interesting. Would be better to know, don't you agree???

If you knew anything about electronics, you'd know that it does...


And, if you had some data in hand about audible issues, psychoacoustics, etc, you would know.


Art Dudley, August, 2004
Stereophile review of AudioQuest Cheetah interconnects & Mont Blanc speaker cables


Is he the authority, the 'gold standard' in audio? Based on what?
Audio, as in most if not all other consumer land, is full of bs, mythology, voodoo. And Stereopile is a good source for it.

 

[southeastnavy]

He who lives in glass houses should not throw stones...

As for you, mtrycrafts, you seem to have more questions than answers. And you know what assumptions do...

However, in reponse. My motivations are simple -- I only sell what I believe in, unless of course a customer insists on whatever thing it is they are insisting on. You think my motives are for money -- they are not. True, I do want to make a living, but I'm a retired U.S. Navy Chief with more than $2k/mth retirement pay and healthcare insurance (really good insurance) for less than $500/year. I could quit work tomorrow and be fine -- but there are some more toys I want...

I believe that if I help a customer make a good choice (most of the customers who walk in the door know very little about what we're talking about) and treat them with respect, they will come back and refer others to me. I work hard to provide the best possible customer service. Those are the things that yield financial rewards, not trying to stick it to them by selling them $200 worth of cable that they don't need and won't appreciate anyway.

You (anyone reading this) can believe that or not. Either way, it is the truth.

As for "financial interest, nothing more." Well, if that were true, I wouldn't be talking to you about this because cables is CERTAINLY NOT where I make my money. Also, you are probably not likely to be a customer of mine anyways because chances are you don't live anywhere near Jacksonville, FL. Even if you do, there are three Sound Advices in Jax, and several Sales guys in each... No, I make my money there helping people with designing and building home entertainment systems, the cables of which are the least financially interesting.

As for data... You seem to have the corner on it so let me in on it. Teach me something. Bask me in your wisdom. Tell me what the audible issues are and talk to me about psychoacoustics. I may be new here, but I've been around the block. I'm also pretty quick to understand. For example, I gather from reading your responses all over this site that you seem to be fairly argumentative.

I have come here both to learn and teach. If I pick up a customer along the way, fine. I'm MUCH MORE interested in learning something that will help me do my job better. If I can truly save a customer money by opting for a cheaper cable, by all means. The pennies I give away in commissions from that will yield a great return in referals.

Also, please know that I work where I do because I had an interest first, not vice versa.

****************

Why does biwire sound better than straight wire?
Why does solid core sound better than stranded?
Why can I hear a difference between my AQ and Monster?
What data do any of you have that type of metal, type of dielectric, and configuration of conductors have no audible effect on cables?
If it has an measurable electrical effect but no one can hear it, does it matter?
Is any kind of hearing test more important than electrical measurements?

Seriously, inquiring minds want to know...

 

[gene]

I've always thought this was selling faith a little short. I think the propensity for religous or spiritual faith is hard-wired in us, either because it has some basis in reality or because it has some evolutionary benefit, or perhaps both. Whether or not one particular religious or spiritual belief makes any sense under the scrutiny of science is another question altogether, and is the subject of much angst in the world today.

Very good points, especially about spiritual faith being hard wired in us. We definately do give too much credit to snake oil vendors by making the religion faith analogy.

As for Audioquest, their bogus white papers and psuedo sciences are old news.

Audioquest FAQ


Audioquest DBS Interview

Some of their lower priced, not battery cables are actually pretty decent despite them being over priced and overhyped. Their primary vendor is Belden.

Their entire argument is biases against stranded cable which has no merit at all. However, solid core cable is much cheaper to buy in bulk so I can understand why they would want to find a clever way to market its alleged advantages

 

[rdinn]

There is a difference

I have been heavily involved in Stereo Hifi for over 35 years. Not as a salesman, but as an avid listener who has owned dozens of diffferent stereo pieces and listened to $100,000 systems in boutique stores.

I have owned Theil, Paradigm, EPI, AR (70's models), Magnepan & other speakers. Electronics I have owned: Spectral, Bryston, MacIntosh, Phase Linear 400 (yes, it was that good), NAD, HK, Denon, Yamaha, Sansui, Kenwood and others.

Cabling I have owned, some of which I still own: MIT-330 Interconnect (Still own 3 pairs) MIT Music Hose speaker wire, Kimber 8TC and 4TC (still own the Kimber), Monster (still own various speaker and interconnects), Radio Shack stranded and solid DYI speaker wire (still have laying around) and many others I can't remember.

I am guilty in the past of being a "Tweek". I have spent 100's of hours testing and "critically listening" to various setups, in stores, at home and at others homes, including DBT and other less "scientific" forms. I enjoyed it.

So, is there a difference in the sound of cabling? Absolutely! Is is scientific? Who cares, really? I have 3 Electrical Engineers in my immediate family and they say there is no scientific basis for a different sound.

I can hear differences, sometimes very subtle, especially on revealing higher end equipment. Is the difference worth the "stupid prices" for some cabling? NO! Is there cable voodoo and marketing hype? You bet! $10,000 cables!!! Absurd!!!

The good news is. It's your ears and money. Buy what you like, listen to what you want and enjoy it. If you're happy, it's a success. Share your experience with others so they too can enjoy.

The goal for me is simply: trying to reproduce music as close to its original live sound as possible, within my budget, for the joy of it.

Enjoy the music. By the way I have a HT reciever, but I listen to 2 Channel music & movies, etc. Some how can't motivate myself to set it up HT.

 

[toquemon]

I have been heavily involved in Stereo Hifi for over 35 years. Not as a salesman, but as an avid listener who has owned dozens of diffferent stereo pieces and listened to $100,000 systems in boutique stores.

I have owned Theil, Paradigm, EPI, AR (70's models), Magnepan & other speakers. Electronics I have owned: Spectral, Bryston, MacIntosh, Phase Linear 400 (yes, it was that good), NAD, HK, Denon, Yamaha, Sansui, Kenwood and others.

Cabling I have owned, some of which I still own: MIT-330 Interconnect (Still own 3 pairs) MIT Music Hose speaker wire, Kimber 8TC and 4TC (still own the Kimber), Monster (still own various speaker and interconnects), Radio Shack stranded and solid DYI speaker wire (still have laying around) and many others I can't remember.

I am guilty in the past of being a "Tweek". I have spent 100's of hours testing and "critically listening" to various setups, in stores, at home and at others homes, including DBT and other less "scientific" forms. I enjoyed it.

So, is there a difference in the sound of cabling? Absolutely! Is is scientific? Who cares, really? I have 3 Electrical Engineers in my immediate family and they say there is no scientific basis for a different sound.

I can hear differences, sometimes very subtle, especially on revealing higher end equipment. Is the difference worth the "stupid prices" for some cabling? NO! Is there cable voodoo and marketing hype? You bet! $10,000 cables!!! Absurd!!!

The good news is. It's your ears and money. Buy what you like, listen to what you want and enjoy it. If you're happy, it's a success. Share your experience with others so they too can enjoy.

The goal for me is simply: trying to reproduce music as close to its original live sound as possible, within my budget, for the joy of it.

Enjoy the music. By the way I have a HT reciever, but I listen to 2 Channel music & movies, etc. Some how can't motivate myself to set it up HT.

There are different kinds of audiophiles.

I understand some people who "hear" very subtle differences between well designed components, unfortunately, theese differences are so little that they don't appear in the DBX tests. I have heard them myself, but between mi Yamaha and the Pass Aleph 3 pure class A one of my buddies own, the difference is so little that the price is ridiculous. We are talking about 2,000 grand. The difference in $$$ and the waste of time dedicated to get those very little differences doesn't worth it. That's the truth, at least for me.

Since I've been a member of Audioholics all I can say is I'm very gratefull with Gene and the Staff for showing me the correct way to invest: speakers and room correction "gimmicks".

Some so-called "highend" vendors do make excellent equipment, but we're talking about performance and ordinary high fi vendors give it to you. Unless you're after social recognition, buying some highend equipment is worthless.

 

[WmAx]

I understand some people who "hear" very subtle differences between well designed components, unfortunately, theese differences are so little that they don't appear in the DBX tests.

I believe you mean ABX. But as for the differences are "so little that they don't appear in the DBX tests."; that's absolutely false. Minimal time difference, blind protocol testing is the only way to detect small differences with any degree of reliability. Removing the ability to rapidly compare introduces the factor of human auditory memory -- which is very short. Removing the blinded protocol is allowing a huge number of subconscious biases to enter the picture. If one can not detect a difference in proper blinded protocol, rapid switching conditions, then there is zero reason to believe that they would be able to otherwise detect any actual difference(s). BTW, it's rather interesting that you bring up Pass and Yamaha amplifiers. A while back, an infamous ABX test took place that tested an audiophile's claims that he could easily pass an ABX test because he had the test done on his equipment, in his home, where he was comfortable. The contender was a low cost Yamaha integrated.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl248767154d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=501fl6$ac3@oxy.rust.net&rnum=1

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

.
I understand some people who "hear" very subtle differences between well designed components, unfortunately, theese differences are so little that they don't appear in the DBX tests.

Then, there is no audible difference, is there? DBt protocol is the gold standard in establishing audible differences. Anything else is just speculation, really.


I have heard them myself,

Again, how was this established? Perhaps it is just a perception on your part and the brains interaction along with human nature to be gullible?
Without the proper protocols, who knows what reality is in establishing audible differences.

Since I've been a member of Audioholics all I can say is I'm very gratefull with Gene and the Staff for showing me the correct way to invest: speakers and room correction "gimmicks".


Yes, this is why this place exists Enjoy.