Objective Look @ Low Cost vs High Cost Receiver

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A lot of the measurements done by magazines involve very simple script tests on an AP device. We've seen some significant differences when you actually open up products to real full-power tests and monitor THD, etc.

So when you actually drive these receivers to real-power tests, a lot of them will have a lot worse THD, SNR, F.R., Crosstalk?

So those numbers by HTM may only be for 1-watt, not 100-watts of real power?

So do you measure THD, SNR, FR, Crosstalk all at full power & full range?

In other words, @ 1-watt & 1 kHz, the $480 Onkyo may only have THD of 0.004% and Meridian @ 0.02%, but @ 120-watts & 20Hz-20kHz, the Onkyo may have THD of 1.0% while the Meridian may have THD of 0.02%?

 

[itschris]

The lowest common denominator is the speakers, room, recordings and your hearing capability Especially that last bit since it has finite limits that in most cases have been exceeded by well designed gear

That $10k processor is still limited by the above and at some point by the last bit, hearing thresholds
Unfortunately some think that the hearing has limitless capability; far from it. One good example is perceptual coding. We don' hear a bunch in live music as it is masked.

Yeah... but I'm not talking just about range of sound. I'm talking about what's in between. When you hear a cymbal for instance, does it sound like it does if you were in the room? Clearly, speakers, room, the recording, everything, plays a part, but if it can't be reproduced correctly, how can even the finest speaker fix that? Maybe that's my point. Looking at each part of the chain, the cd player, the intereconnects, the receiver or pre/pro, the amp, the speakers, the room... if each piece takes an indistinguishable piece of the quality out on it's own, does the end result added up produce a sound that is definably or undefinably inferior (both are real descriptions in my book) than if those small inpurities did not exist?

I'm not sure either way.

But I'm definately not sure that every piece of gear is indistinguishable from the next as some like to suggest around here.

 

[chadnliz]

Why do you insist on bringing up specs over and over and over? Specs are often incomplete, flawed, scewed, or outright false and for you to rely so heavy on marketing numbers makes no sense, why do you do this all the time?

 

[gus6464]

I use 3 integrated amplifiers. I let my players do all the decodings - just like SACD and DVD-A. Since the players have all the internal decoders (DD, DD+, TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HR, DTS-MA, DSD, MLP, etc.), why duplicate?

So are the 3 PMA2000's set to bypass or do you have to control the volume on all 3 units for all your speakers? Just trying to figure out how you handle volume control.

 

[itschris]

I just don't see how people can spend more on electronics than speakers. Now I understand if you are buying $500 speakers and getting a $500 receiver since that is the cheapest you can for HDMI and all the new stuff. But then you have people buying $1500 receivers when all the speakers also cost $1500. I understand buying something more stout if you have speakers that are less than 8ohm but even then a $500 receiver with $700 5ch amp is still cheaper and better than getting the $1500 receiver.

If I am spending $8000 on that Meridian my speakers should cost $50000. I can see spending 50% of speaker cost in electronics when you get to that level but not 100%+.

Along this same debate, there are those who think a $50K speaker is no different than a $500 speaker.

My general thoughts aimed at no one in particular...
I don't know... if you can go to Target and pick up the $500 HTIB and believe it sounds as a good as even my system (which is humble in IMHO) or something far far more grand, than I applaud you because I'm clearly an idiot for spending the money that I have.

 

[itschris]

So are the 3 PMA2000's set to bypass or do you have to control the volume on all 3 units for all your speakers? Just trying to figure out how you handle volume control.

ADTC's got one of the cooler setups I think. It must feel real good to seeing all that stuff stacked up like that!

You're volume question is a good one... I never even thought about that.

 

[gus6464]

Along this same debate, there are those who think a $50K speaker is no different than a $500 speaker.

My general thoughts aimed at no one in particular...
I don't know... if you can go to Target and pick up the $500 HTIB and believe it sounds as a good as even my system (which is humble in IMHO) or something far far more grand, than I applaud you because I'm clearly an idiot for spending the money that I have.

I don't get those people either lol . I went from some very good and highly regarded $300 speakers (Epos ELS-3) to $1200 (Dali Ikon 2) in my 2ch system and the difference is night and day. My friend and I did an AB comparison and you would have to deaf to not hear the difference. While this gap gets smaller as cost increases even my untrained ear can tell the difference between my current speakers and a pair of $10k Quads. BTW the difference between my current speakers @$1200 and the $10k Quads was also night and day.

 

[fmw]

Specifications aside, it is well established that amplifiers with low distortion, flat frequency response and low noise floors will not alter the waveforms audibly so the result at the speakers will be about the same with any modern amplifier. Why does one spend thousands instead of hundreds for an amplifying device. There are a lot of reasons - some good and some bad. I've spent thousands on a stereo amplifier in the past. The problem is that one of the bad reasons to do it is sonics and sonics always seem to be the justification. Nothing new here at all.

Whoever injected speakers into the mix needs to take it to a different thread. Speakers produce very high levels of distortion and every single one of them makes audible changes to the waveforms. Also speakers interact with room acoustics. That's why every single speaker system sounds different from others. Every single speaker system will sound different in every room that isn't anechoic as well. So comparing speakers to amplifiers is meaningless.

I think the point is that both units have specifications that say it will deliver an audibly unaltered waveform to the speakers (which will then distort the hell out of them.) So the waveforms delivered to the speakers will be about the same. It isn't rocket science. Nothing wrong with spending $8500 on an audio component if you have the disposable income. The only problem is believing that it will sound better because of its price.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So are the 3 PMA2000's set to bypass or do you have to control the volume on all 3 units for all your speakers? Just trying to figure out how you handle volume control.

All 3 PMA2000s are used as 1) Source Selector, 2) Volume Controller, & 3) Amplifier.

The Tone and Balance Controls are bypassed, but the volume for each amp controls the respective speakers.

Amp#1 controls the volume for Front L+R.
Amp#2 controls the volume for Center.
Amp#3 controls the volume for Surr L+R.

So the players do all the decodings, then send the analog signal to the respective amps for volume control and amplification.

This way, you will never have to upgrade the Integrated Amps. In 10 years when they come out with a "Purple Ray Player", you just have to upgrade the player, not the amps.

If you want 7.1, you will need Amp#4.

If you need 9.1, you will need Amp#5, etc.

So now you have a Pure Class A analog Preamp/Amp for your dedicated 2Ch Stereo CD and for 5.1/7.1/9.1, etc.

Some people actually have 2 rooms - one for 5.1HT and one for 2Ch Music because they feel that stereo preamps/amps sound better than 5.1 systems.

Now you have the best of both worlds.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why do you insist on bringing up specs over and over and over? Specs are often incomplete, flawed, scewed, or outright false and for you to rely so heavy on marketing numbers makes no sense, why do you do this all the time?

So we should never even look at specs?

Are all the measurements done by Audioholics incomplete, flawed, scewed, or outright false?

We should just take your word for it?

If you tell me that Receiver A sounds better than Receiver B, you might want to prove that either by double-blind test, or at least - at a minimum - some 3rd party independent measurements.

Like Clint pointed out, perhaps HTM may not have the same rigorous standards as Audioholics. But if we can get high quality specs - like THD, SNR, FR, Crosstalk at FULL power (say 200-watts) and FULL range 20Hz-20kHz, perhaps we will start to see a bigger difference.

There are 2 camps. One believes that all the amps/preamps/receivers sound very alike. This camp will give you the specs and double-blinded studies to prove it.

The other camp believes that all amps/preamps/receivers sound differently. Where is YOUR PROOF? Your WORD OF MOUTH? Is that your proof? And the rest of us are suppose to take your words for it?

Okay, specs are only the MINIMUM. If you don't have double-binded studies, then that's all you have - the specs. You take the 3rd party independent specs away and you have nothing but your personal opinion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Along this same debate, there are those who think a $50K speaker is no different than a $500 speaker.

My general thoughts aimed at no one in particular...
I don't know... if you can go to Target and pick up the $500 HTIB and believe it sounds as a good as even my system (which is humble in IMHO) or something far far more grand, than I applaud you because I'm clearly an idiot for spending the money that I have.

Nobody will ever change my mind that the best speaker in the world is the B&W Nautilus Tube-Loaded speaker.

I was going to list the specs for this speaker, but I wouldn't want to get crucified for doing it.

It just reminds me back in the good old school days when all the "A" students brag about their grades, and all the "C" students keep on saying that grades don't matter. They are just letters, right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTC's got one of the cooler setups I think. It must feel real good to seeing all that stuff stacked up like that!

My Acurus gears actually had BETTER specs than my Denon gears.

Contrary to popular belief, specs don't mean everything to me.

Aesthetics is #1!!!

 

[itschris]

My Acurus gears actually had BETTER specs than my Denon gears.

Contrary to popular belief, specs don't mean everything to me.

Aesthetics is #1!!!

Well then you got it because I stil think your setup is sweet. I'm already getting the itch... I think I might start looking into a similar setup. I like the idea of having unadulterated 2 channel... (even though I could buy a $150 receiver and get the same results )

I actually had solid 3 hours of listening time yesterday all by myself. I played all kinds of stuff from Terrance Trend D'Arby, Duran Duran, Metallica (cover of Turn the Page is unbelievable) Diana Krall among others.

What I did notice was that the good discs sounded great on 2 channel Pure Direct (Spies, Spies 2, Thomas Dolby) yet others sounded just plain empty. They did however respond quite nicely to some of the advance surround formats I get from my Elite 94. I wouldn't say they were spectacular and I always think it sounds a bit odd hearing music in surround sound, but some of the modes created a really nice ambient sound. I really missed just sitting down llistening to music like that. It's nice to have that ability again.

While you were looking for your Dennon pieces, were there any others you were considering?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well then you got it because I stil think your setup is sweet. I'm already getting the itch... I think I might start looking into a similar setup. I like the idea of having unadulterated 2 channel... (even though I could buy a $150 receiver and get the same results )

While you were looking for your Dennon pieces, were there any others you were considering?

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, I was also looking at the Marantz:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARPM15S1/MARANTZ/PM15S1-Reference-Series-Integrated-Stereo-Amplifier/1.html

But this meant that I would have to also get the matching Marantz BD player and SACD player. The BD player was not yet available. And I think the price of the matching-color SACD player was kind of high.

I'm sure this Marantz Integrated Amp looks better and have better specs than the Denon PMA2000.

The other one I was thinking about was the KRELL KAV-400xi Integrated Amp:

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=32679

More expensive, but still better looks, specs, and PRESTIGE.

But going this route means I would probably get the Denon or Marantz players since the Krell SACD player would cost way too much. And Krell doesn't even make a BD player.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I actually had solid 3 hours of listening time yesterday all by myself. I played all kinds of stuff from Terrance Trend D'Arby, Duran Duran, Metallica (cover of Turn the Page is unbelievable) Diana Krall among others.

What I did notice was that the good discs sounded great on 2 channel Pure Direct (Spies, Spies 2, Thomas Dolby) yet others sounded just plain empty. They did however respond quite nicely to some of the advance surround formats I get from my Elite 94. I wouldn't say they were spectacular and I always think it sounds a bit odd hearing music in surround sound, but some of the modes created a really nice ambient sound. I really missed just sitting down llistening to music like that. It's nice to have that ability again.

Yeah, that's the real important thing -- actually listening to the music.

We can have all the cool gears we want, but if the actual music sucks, then it doesn't matter.

Like you said, it's gotta be all good from start to finish. Any single step could screw the whole experience.

And it all starts with the original music source.

 

[itschris]

Oh, thanks.

Yeah, I was also looking at the Marantz:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARPM15S1/MARANTZ/PM15S1-Reference-Series-Integrated-Stereo-Amplifier/1.html

But this meant that I would have to also get the matching Marantz BD player and SACD player. The BD player was not yet available. And I think the price of the matching-color SACD player was kind of high.

I'm sure this Marantz Integrated Amp looks better and have better specs than the Denon PMA2000.

The other one I was thinking about was the KRELL KAV-400xi Integrated Amp:

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=32679

More expensive, but still better looks, specs, and PRESTIGE.

But going this route means I would probably get the Denon or Marantz players since the Krell SACD player would cost way too much. And Krell doesn't even make a BD player.

I almost pooped myself when you suggested Krell. I thought it would be just stupid expensive. I mean it is... but it's not horrible and it's doable. I'm not sure though that it would be any more impressive than the Dennons you have. Those are very fine pieces of gear.

I have to wait at least year though. I just informed the wifey that we'll be getting a blu-ray player soon... she sorda went along since it's something we don't have, but there's no way she'd buy into replacing stuff I just got. Maybe next summer though. I think that's the route I might ultimately want to take.

 

[itschris]

You could just have seperate preamps like you did with your Accurus setup though correct? I could get 3 preamps and some monoblocks or stereo amps and/or multi-channel. Is there an advantage to splitting those up or having them integrated?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I almost pooped myself when you suggested Krell. I thought it would be just stupid expensive. I mean it is... but it's not horrible and it's doable. I'm not sure though that it would be any more impressive than the Dennons you have. Those are very fine pieces of gear.

I have to wait at least year though. I just informed the wifey that we'll be getting a blu-ray player soon... she sorda went along since it's something we don't have, but there's no way she'd buy into replacing stuff I just got. Maybe next summer though. I think that's the route I might ultimately want to take.

***hee**hee***

I knew you would like the KRELL idea.

About 2 months ago, that same Krell was $3,000. Now it's $2,500. I bet by next year, it might be $2,000. And I bet if you bought 3 Krells, they would give additional discounts.

But really, would you buy a "Denon" for $1,200, or a "Marantz" for $2,000, or a "KRELL" for $2,000?

I still think about the Krell even now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You could just have seperate preamps like you did with your Accurus setup though correct? I could get 3 preamps and some monoblocks or stereo amps and/or multi-channel. Is there an advantage to splitting those up or having them integrated?

I think having separate preamps + separate amps is the purist of all, which I was doing with the Acurus RL11s + 200X3s. At one time I had 4 Acurus RL11 preamps and 4 Acurus 200X3 amps -- until TLS Guy scared the crap out of me with the speaker protection thing.

It's more expensive and takes up more space than having integrated amps, but it's definitely the purist approach.

Actually, I'm hoping that Denon would come out with a minimalist/purist class A stereo preamp (no tones or balance controls) like the Acurus. Then I would definitely buy them plus the POA-A1HDCI amp!

Talk about a pure 2-Channel Analog dream system plus HT.

See, the thing about receivers and pre-pros is that the Front L+R were designed to be super. Most measurements are done for the L+R channels. But what about the THD, F.R., SNR, & Crosstalk for the Center and Surround channels? When was the last time we saw measurements for them?

With 3 separate preamps & amps, every single channel is prestine. Of course, you and I are talking about pure analog craziness here.

Man, I loved having my Acurus gears. If only Acurus had better speaker protection.

Again, it's crazy, but we would not have to upgrade the preamps and amps because they are analog. Only the digital players (blu-ray or whatever-ray player) need to be upgraded, which is inevitable anyway.

Now if we had the KRELLs, why would we want to upgrade? I wouldn't.

Krell is pure 100% evil.

 

[itschris]

What exactly is the speaker protection issue?

The whole idea of seperate amps/pre-amps sounds really cool. It's definately something I need to think about.

I'm assuming the blu-ray player would have to have the 7.1 analog outs into each respective pre-amp channel... correct?