Notes from auditioning speakers

[cschang]

Yeeeahh, I mentioned operating range and not going over x-mas. Speaker wire has inductance and capacitance if you want to be scientific about it. So, the effect is different in comparison to a resistor that has significantly higher resistance (hence the name) and minuscule capacitance. Even given this facts, the audibility of the speaker wire differences has been extensively debated and found non existent in DBT.
Again, come back to my point. Can a simple resistor be used to level match? I think it can, you think it can't.

Like I mentioned, the resistance is minimal in wire. I also agree that it's effect are minimal at best.

And yes, I agree on what we are disagreeing on. To be clear, you can level match using the resistor, but you risk changing the sound characteristics of the speaker. I also say your test will not prove anything. Also like I mentioned, talked to any speaker engineer or EE.

Here is another thread saying series resistance will affect the speaker:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62227

 

[R-Carpenter]

MODS!!! Can you take all this to a new thread??? Pretty please with sugar on it!

 

[fredk]

Was it a switch or an attenuation device?

From what I remember, a switch.

 

[KEW]

Retraction of statements on Paradigm imaging

RBH pros:
In contrast, the Paradigm seemed to crowd all voices in between the speakers.

I have been pretty critical of imaging on the Paradigm Studio20's. Well, it turns out that this is an erroneous statement. This morning, I came across the following comment in an Audioholics article on the Axiom EP500 (Gene DellaSala authored the article):

Editorial Note on Connecting Line Level to Single Input Subwoofers
Simply connecting a Y-splitter to the stereo line level outputs of your preamp and then connecting to the sub is not advised since it does not provide a buffered or isolated connection path for your preamp and you risk compromising channel to channel isolation which will adversely affect stereo imaging.

Well, I have a sub which I have only temporarily hooked up to make sure it worked (IOW, I have not taken any steps to position and adjust it). Because of the cables I had handy, I ran the preamp outputs to the left and right line level inputs of the sub. Reading the above statement, I believe the left and right line level inputs of the sub (Martin Logan Dynamo) are probably combined within the sub just as a Y-splitter would do. Naturally, I had turned off the sub for the speaker comparison.
At one point, during the audition, I began to wonder if I had a faulty receiver and the Paradigms were playing mono, but with a closer listen there was no doubt that the two speakers did not play the exact same content. Thus, I assumed that the RBH's just did an exceptional job of imaging which made the Paradigms seem that bad in comparison.
This evening, I will make time to check the sound with and without the sub input connections to verify an improvement in the Paradigm's imaging.
Sorry about the screwup!
Kurt

 

[GO-NAD!]

Just finished reading the entire thread as the Studio 20V5 is on my list of contenders. I have a hard time with picking out the little differences when comparing two different speakers, unless they are glaring. I don't have the musical background that KEW has, which I sure is a big help. I also have the B&W CM1 and CM5 on my list as well. I wonder how they'll stack up when I do some comparisons.

 

[fredk]

Just finished reading the entire thread as the Studio 20V5 is on my list of contenders. I have a hard time with picking out the little differences when comparing two different speakers, unless they are glaring. I don't have the musical background that KEW has, which I sure is a big help.

Personally, I think too much is made of some of the things that can affect a speakers performance. Take well recorded material that you are familiar with to do your auditioning and just listen to the speakers.

While you can certainly train yourself to hear smaller and smaller differences, ask yourself if that is your end goal. If it is, then thats great, and you can pursue it as far as you want. If its not, then just relax, enjoy the music and pick what sounds best to you.

If you are really worried that what you pick may not keep you happy for long, find the right speaker for you now and try to find it used on Audiogone to minimize your cost.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well, I had a 2-hour listening session at the Paradigm/B & W dealer on Friday after work and here are the results.

The contenders: Studio 20V5, B & W CM1 and CM5.

The top of the heap turned out to be the Studio 20. Going in, I was suspecting that the CM5 would come out on top, but that wasn't the case. It was too bright - not significantly, but the 20 was definitely more balanced. The CM1, while more neutral than big brother, was too insensitive to get any appreciable volume in a large room. I was surprised by the result, as TLS Guy had mentioned in a previous post that he thought the CM5 was the jewel in that model line. Plus, the CM5 cost $600 more than the Studio!

I also thought the imaging of the Studio was on par with the CM5.

For comparison purposes, I also listened to the CM7 and Studio 60V5. The CM7 was quite neutral, compared to the CM5, which is puzzling. The Studio 60, while playing deeper than the 20, sounded like there was a blanket over it - "veiled", for lack of a better word.

Anyway, at the moment the Studio 20V5 is at the top of my list.

 

[KEW]

Anyway, at the moment the Studio 20V5 is at the top of my list.

Cool, it 'll be interesting to see what else you listen to and how it compares!

There are so many speakers out there. I felt that the Studio 20 v5 represents very good value and makes for a good reference standard against which to compare others. To me, it is well balanced - doing everything well with no particular weakness.

Are you leaning towards a 2.1 or 2.0 bookshelf system (or other options)?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Cool, it 'll be interesting to see what else you listen to and how it compares!

There are so many speakers out there. I felt that the Studio 20 v5 represents very good value and makes for a good reference standard against which to compare others. To me, it is well balanced - doing everything well with no particular weakness.

Are you leaning towards a 2.1 or 2.0 bookshelf system (or other options)?

It will be a 2.1 system or, if I play my cards right, a 2.2 system. I have an undercouch subwoofer design, provided by Annunaki, and planned to build it this winter. But, I've been mulling over the idea of building 2 smaller subwoofers, which might integrate with the mains better. I justified the undercouch sub for my wife, in that it would free up floor space. But, if I try to convince my wife that I "need" 2 small subwoofers, to replace the one larger model (Reel Acoustics RSW 1215) that I presently have, I think I'm going to have an arguement on my hands. I also intend to buy a DCX2496 to integrate the whole works.

As for further speaker auditions, I plan to checkout the Monitor Audio GS10 and the RS1. I'm a bit concerned about the rear ports though. Whichever speaker I go with, it'll have to be placed quite close to the wall and I think rear ports just exacerbate the standing wave issue. That's a problem I have with my current speakers (Energy RC-10's). I know I can address that problem with the DCX, but I would think that the less correction I have to impose, the better.

I'm also wondering about any possible problems with the RS1. The Monitor Audio website does not feature them as a current model anymore, as they have been replaced by the RX series. The local dealer has them on clearance at a significant discount as well. As for the GS10, it's priced at $2200! I'm not sure I want to spend that much, even if I could negotiate a lower price, which I'm sure I can. Boy, it looks like I'm trying to convince myself not to bother checking them out, doesn't it! I have to though, just to be sure.

Thanks for your interest.

 

[KEW]

Whichever speaker I go with, it'll have to be placed quite close to the wall and I think rear ports just exacerbate the standing wave issue. That's a problem I have with my current speakers (Energy RC-10's). I know I can address that problem with the DCX, but I would think that the less correction I have to impose, the better.

Do you currently run a sub with the RC-10's?
I've always wondered how much removing the bass from the speakers would reduce concerns about boundary-port interaction.
Also, Monitor Audio includes plugs for their ports. It would be typical for the port to be tuned to ~40Hz on bookshelf speakers. So if you plugged it, could you tell the difference? I think it would tighten the speaker by making it acoustic suspension, but I don't know if there would be liabilities to this approach.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Do you currently run a sub with the RC-10's?

Yes, the aforementioned RSW 1215. However, it is run from my integrated amp through the preouts. Therefore, there is presently no crossover for the mains. I believe that a crossover will help, but only so much. I used a test tone CD to see how bad the standing wave is and it extends right up to about 200 - 300Hz (I can't recall precisely at the moment). Of course, I don't want to cross over my mains that high, so I'll need some equalizing to take care of the rest of that hump.

I have the ports in the RC-10's plugged right now and they do reduce the severity somewhat, but they have also done something to the tone of the speakers that I don't care for. I can't really describe it - you'd have to hear it yourself.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well yesterday, I had a listen to Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2's. I thought the tweeter is step up from the one used in the Avanti 902i's (the speakers I currently use as surrounds in my HT setup). I listened to both speakers in a show room and although the acoustics weren't the best, the crispness of the high end was better in the Mezzo. The 902i's were a touch sibilant in comparison. But the mid/woofer was similar in each speaker and I didn't hear much difference, except deeper bass extension in the Mezzo. The cabinet is not as strongly constructed as the Studio 20. The Mezzos are fine speakers for the price, which was about $400 less than the Studios. But the Studios are still at the top of my list.

 

[KEW]

Did your Paradigm dealer have the Signature Series?
For me the Beryllium tweeter is a big deal. If you bide your time, you can get a pair of used S-2 (has to be v2 or v3 for the Be tweeter) for $1300 to $1500. I don't know what impact being in Canada may have on buying via Audiogon.
You might not care for the sound of these tweeters, but they warrant a listen if your local dealer has them.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Did your Paradigm dealer have the Signature Series?
For me the Beryllium tweeter is a big deal. If you bide your time, you can get a pair of used S-2 (has to be v2 or v3 for the Be tweeter) for $1300 to $1500. I don't know what impact being in Canada may have on buying via Audiogon.
You might not care for the sound of these tweeters, but they warrant a listen if your local dealer has them.

No, he doesn't carry the Sigs. At that level he sells the B & W 800 series. Buying from Audiogon would involve shipping, customs, brokerage, etc. And I'm not sure I want to deal with those variables. I've looked at Canuckaudiomart, but with this country being 1/10 the size of the USA, with regards to population, the used speaker market is proportionately snmaller. So, deals of that sort are few and far between.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well, after listening to several different speakers, I pulled the trigger and bought the Studio 20V5's. Bad news is, they are now a Christmas gift (SWMBO ) and I can't use them until then. Oh well, at least I got 'em!!

 

[KEW]

Thanks for the follow-up.
Those are sweet speakers and should last a few decades with those solid drivers and construction!

Make the argument with your wife that defective electronics usually fail within two weeks of putting them into service. Most sellers would take a return if it quit in the first week, but maybe not after it had been under the tree for three weeks.
Speakers are very reliable and unlikely to give you issues, but I would still like to run them for about 40 hours at good volume just to prove them out.
Good luck!