Non-Partisan discussion... when are you too old to be in office?

[Swerd]

War is a handy - if cynical - way to boost support for a sitting government. The Falklands war was a Godsend for Margaret Thatcher. Her government was deeply unpopular before the war, but the victory over Argentina got her re-elected. Of course, a loss would have just hastened her defeat. Argentina may have benefitted overall by losing, as it resulted in the collapse of the ruling military junta. Ironically, the Argentine government invaded the Falklands in order to distract the citizenry's building resentment. But, it only made things worse.

A good point. Thanks.

Any mention of the Falklands War reminds me of a joke I learned from an Argentinian scientist I knew in the lab where I worked at the time of that war:

Argentinians are Italians, who live in South America, speak Spanish, and think they're British.​

 

[Mr._Clark]

I didn’t take anything as amiss in your posts. Beyond that, your participation has also helped me think through areas I was stuck on.
This type of conversation is what we need more of: Not another depository for hit videos targeting specific politicians, rather useful discourse which can inform all of our choices when voting.
I know I don’t necessarily want to tear down the two-party system but think the blind adherence to this us-vs-them philosophy, especially in light of the extreme polarization of our political culture, is severely hurting us as a country.
The flip side seems almost a paradigm shift at this point.
Yet allowing for a shift to multiple, perhaps countless parties, open the doors to much more chaos and uncertainty. Eliminating coalition government was a major part of this system. Two visions finding the middle ground and moving toward the greatest good for the greatest number of people is what is supposed to happen. That’s the ideal. More, it should just be the way.
Bah!
It’s too early for this.

I have found myself pondering George Washington's farewell address. Some of it is remarkably prescient (some of it isn't).

One thing that stands out is his recognition that there was no guarantee that the government would survive.

He was also concerned that the presidency might be viewed as a lifetime appointment. His concerns with regards to political parties is also obviously relevant today.

George Washington's Farewell Address

In 1796, as his second term in office drew to a close, President George Washington chose not to seek re-election. Mindful of the precedent his conduct set for future presidents, Washington feared that if he were to die while in office, Americans would view the presidency as a lifetime...

www.mountvernon.org

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have found myself pondering George Washington's farewell address. Some of it is remarkably prescient (some of it isn't).

One thing that stands out is his recognition that there was no guarantee that the government would survive.

He was also concerned that the presidency might be viewed as a lifetime appointment. His concerns with regards to political parties is also obviously relevant today.

George Washington's Farewell Address

In 1796, as his second term in office drew to a close, President George Washington chose not to seek re-election. Mindful of the precedent his conduct set for future presidents, Washington feared that if he were to die while in office, Americans would view the presidency as a lifetime...

www.mountvernon.org

Did he have an input to the drafting, what should be in it?

 

[TLS Guy]

Did he have an input to the drafting, what should be in it?

You have to be careful who exclude by age. Winston Churchill was 65 years old in 1940, when his country turned to him to lead them out of the worst crisis in their history. His energy in the role is now the stuff of legend. He could wear people out half his age.

 

[Dan]

I agree that age limits do not take into account highly different rates at which people age especially cognitively. And testing is fraught with issues. If we do test I would like to propose a rather low bar. Any president or congressman should be able to pass the standard citizenship test required to become a naturalized citizen. This would exclude the feeble minded starting with SenTuberville from Alabama who does not k ow how many branches of government there are.

 

[ryanosaur]

Sharing as this was an interesting analysis of the topic:

Analysis | The subtext to voter concern about Biden’s age — The Washington Post

It’s about Biden’s particularly presentation of his age — but also about deeper generational tensions.

apple.news

 

[ryanosaur]

More from the old news feed…
As I’ve already stated, I’m not so much in support of creating limits Iike this, but… here we go:

Republican's plan would make 52 members of Congress ineligible to serve — Newsweek

September 07, 2023

apple.news

 

[mtrycrafts]

Then we would change that amendment as life expectancy increases over time?

 

[ryanosaur]

Then we would change that amendment as life expectancy increases over time?

There seemed to be so many things amiss with his proposal.

In a big way though, this is a shining example of why I started the thread. Not that I think we need to do something any longer, but this conversation is happening everywhere.

 

[Verdinut]

Then we would change that amendment as life expectancy increases over time?

Life expectancy increases over time but cognition is not always following:

Ageing and the brain

Ageing causes changes to the brain size, vasculature, and cognition. The brain shrinks with increasing age and there are changes at all levels from molecules to morphology. Incidence of stroke, white matter lesions, and dementia also rise with age, as ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[mtrycrafts]

Life expectancy increases over time but cognition is not always following:

Ageing and the brain

Ageing causes changes to the brain size, vasculature, and cognition. The brain shrinks with increasing age and there are changes at all levels from molecules to morphology. Incidence of stroke, white matter lesions, and dementia also rise with age, as ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Then we have in place to remove the President for sure by vote of his cabinet.
Others could be voted out of office?

 

[ryanosaur]

Piling on…

Over 75% of voters want maximum age limit for elected officials, poll shows — Axios

Over three-fourths of Americans think there should be a maximum age limit for elected officials, according to a CBS News/YouGov survey.

apple.news

Over 3/4 of Americans think there should be an age limit on elected officials. 76% of Dems and 79% of Reps agree.

*shrugs

Dunno what may come of it, but this doesn’t sound like this issue is going to go away.

 

[Swerd]

Piling on…

Yep, piling on.

If you believe the polls that seem to get published every month or more frequently, most Americans have agreed for years that abortion should not be restricted or abolished, and that gun ownership must be better regulated, controlled, or restricted. Yet, none of those have happened.

Pinning what may be hopes for political outcomes onto polling numbers, and little else, is probably unrealistic. Not impossible, but certainly not without much greater political effort.

 

[Swerd]

To underscore my point above (piling on?), I just read this Op Ep piece in today's Washington Post, written by Jennifer Rubin.

I Don’t Write About Polls. You Shouldn’t Bother With Them, Either.
By Jennifer Rubin September 10, 2023
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/10/pollings-unrealistic-coverage/

Because the Post is behind a pay wall, I've attached a PDF copy of the column below. The yellow highlights are some points within the article that I think are directed at your thoughts about age and presidential candidates.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yep, piling on.

If you believe the polls that seem to get published every month or more frequently, most Americans have agreed for years that abortion should not be restricted or abolished, and that gun ownership must be better regulated, controlled, or restricted. Yet, none of those have happened.

Pinning what may be hopes for political outcomes onto polling numbers, and little else, is probably unrealistic. Not impossible, but certainly not without much greater political effort.

As I said before, you helped convince me this isn't a necessity. I'm not pushing for some sort of action on this topic. However, I do still find it worthy of discussion.

I would be curious to see, for example, how many of the Republican primary voters vote for Trump over younger candidates, for example. If these polling numbers were to be believed, even Trump's base would vote against him.

I saw a polling article earlier today that showed Haley leading Biden in a head to head match up. Different news, but the message was clear nonetheless that voters are at least feeling the older leaders are out of touch if not outright viewed as not being up to the task.

So while you and some others have swayed me in my earlier thoughts that something must be done... now the question remains what may happen in light of overwhelming public opinion... if anything at all?

Personally, I would really love to see Biden step aside for other candidates to step forward. To me, this is partially because of polling, but more because I see him as compromised by too many other distractions including the age discussion and his son's legal issues. Of course the news about his presser in Vietnam only reinforces this: is "lying dog-faced pony soldier" just a silly "covfefe" moment?
*shrugs

 

[Swerd]

I urge you to read the Jennifer Rubin opinion piece above. I believe what she says about this particular issue, and political polls in general – only she says it better that I can.

 

[ryanosaur]

that I think are directed at your thoughts about age and presidential candidates.

I'll say again: Your words earlier helped sway my thought process. I agree with most of the points in that article, too.

 

[lovinthehd]

Is it perhaps because many have experienced their grandparents' political views?

 

[Mr._Clark]

With regards to judges, I have mixed feelings about it. There has been a controversy concerning judge Newman, who is 96 years old.

Judicial Disability and the “Great Dissenter”

Guest Post by Paul R. Gugliuzza, Professor of Law, Temple University Beasley School of Law The judicial disability proceedings instituted …

patentlyo.com

It's unclear exactly what is driving the effort to remove judge Newman. Most of it seems to be closed-door. According to public reports, it is based at least in part on statements by staff that Newman is losing it.

Newman writes a lot of dissenting opinions, and these seem to be well-written. This creates the appearance that the other judges want to push her out because they are tired of getting skewered by Newman in her dissents.

Judge Newman was just suspended. I'm not sure what to to think of this. I doubt the other judges would fabricate the evidence cited in the order. On the other hand, this is anecdotal, but people who've argued cases in which she was on the panel haven't told me of any declines in recent years (this is an extrmely small sample). One told me that Newman hammered him during oral arguments. He joked that she lit up a cigarette when she was done with him.

>>>Judge Pauline Newman’s colleagues on a federal appeals court . . . told Judge Newman, 96, that she had been suspended amid growing concerns about her mental fitness.

The order suspending Judge Newman for one year followed an unusually bitter and public dispute over her cognitive state and her ability to continue to serve on the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, a specialized court that hears patent cases. . . .
More than 20 interviews with members of the court staff, along with emails sent by Judge Newman, “provided overwhelming evidence,” the order said, that she “may be experiencing significant mental problems including memory loss, lack of comprehension, confusion and an inability to perform basic tasks that she previously was able to perform with ease.”

The order said that evidence pointed to instances in which Judge Newman, when struggling with basic tasks, “became frustrated, agitated, belligerent and hostile.”

“With no rational reason — other than frustration over her own confusion — Judge Newman has threatened to have staff arrested, forcibly removed from the building and fired,” the order said. “She accused staff of trickery, deceit, acting as her adversary, stealing her computer, stealing her files and depriving her of secretarial support.”<<<

Federal Judge, 96, Is Suspended Amid Concerns About Her Mental Fitness

Judge Pauline Newman has denied accusations that she is unable to perform the duties of her job and has challenged an investigation into her cognitive state.

www.nytimes.com

 

[cpp]

Not sure if its really about age limits, I think it needs to be about a HONEST 3rd party health evaluation by doctors that are not associated with the "president, or a person running for office or residing in office. When a person freezes while speaking in public, there is a problem. Or a person that can't remember important details when those details should be well known to that person. Or a prolonged absence from your office is a indicator that something is wrong with that persons health. Or even a person that repeatedly provides false statements to make themselves look important or better than they really are, a true sign of a obsessive-compulsive disorder/ narcissistic personality disorder..