No thoughts and prayers today?

[GO-NAD!]

If I came across as looking down, that was absolutely not my intention. I started with minimum wage when I bagged groceries. I though "this sucks, I'm not going to do this long" and I didn't. Got a job doing something else that paid a bit more. It just strikes me as odd that older people have minimum wage jobs when they've lived here all their life and worked for most of it too. I guess maybe they didn't learn any sort of marketable skill, but I doubt it. It just seems like something more is going on in that situation, what it is, no idea.

I do agree that a lot of skilled labor professions are going away and that's sad. Kids have the "go to college or you won't get a good job" crammed into their head to the point that they don't even understand that there are plenty of jobs that require training, but no degree. My brother in law is a plumber. He isn't even 30 and makes over $100k a year because he's good at what he does and he's smart. He dropped out of high school and I don't know if he ever got his GED. It just wasn't for him, nothing wrong with that I guess, but it doesn't seem to have hurt him at all.

I guess that may be my point. I've just seen so many people start at the bottom and work their way out of it that I feel like anyone can. Granted, maybe not alone, but there are opportunities out there, but too many people feel like there aren't. People need to be shown what is available to them. Apprentice programs are available for lots of different skilled labor jobs. From what I know, they make more than minimum wage and require little to no experience.

I certainly wasn't pointing any fingers at anyone - it was just a general statement. I realise that some people in dead end, minimum wage jobs are feckless layabouts. But, a great many are victims of their life circumstances. I don't believe they should be doubly punished by being forced to live on starvation wages or work multiple jobs to survive. Many affluent people think they achieved their success through nothing more than their own smarts and hard work. It's rarely as simple as that. Or, maybe I'm just a bleeding heart...

 

[Phase 2]

I certainly wasn't pointing any fingers at anyone - it was just a general statement. I realise that some people in dead end, minimum wage jobs are feckless layabouts. But, a great many are victims of their life circumstances. I don't believe they should be doubly punished by being forced to live on starvation wages or work multiple jobs to survive. Many affluent people think they achieved their success through nothing more than their own smarts and hard work. It's rarely as simple as that. Or, maybe I'm just a bleeding heart...

A living wage isn't meant to support a family of four. It's to help in supporting one individual. Entry level pay all depends on the craft or business. A lot of people work for cash most if not all their life. Than when they get into their 40+ years old they try to get SSA or SSI check. But since they haven't put into SSA they become homeless or living off of relatives or doing what ever they can to do to survive. Dealing street drugs, or they get prescription drugs from the doctor to sell off. I've seen it first hand. I worked many job at entry level pay. I've also worked higher paying jobs and have become homeless at times. Not because I won't work, because sometimes the contract job would play out. But never did, I steal money or mooch. Now no matter how we debate what a living wage should be it still brings up the fact that as a legal adult which 18 in this country we are responsible for the choices we make with our life. Blaming the system, isn't the problem. You don't work you don't eat! For some reason some and there are millions who believe it's owed to them. Those are the ones I have a problem with.

 

[panteragstk]

Many affluent people think they achieved their success through nothing more than their own smarts and hard work. It's rarely as simple as that. Or, maybe I'm just a bleeding heart...

You're not wrong by any means, but I do think a lot of those people that are "stuck" may not be as stuck as they think they are. All it takes is someone giving enough of a crap to try to help them find something better. Or a little determination on their part. Way too many people just accept what they're given as the way things are, when it doesn't have to be that way.

The best thing we could do is create social programs for people to help them get out of minimum wage jobs they are stuck in. That would be more of a benefit.

I do agree the minimum wage needs to be higher, but not doubled. All that's going to do is help inflation and hurt some employers to the point they have to get rid of people. If jobs decrease, but minimum wage increases, are we really helping anyone? If rent and bills go up then that extra money from the increase means nothing to those people. Sure, on paper they make more, but they won't have more at the end of the day.

 

[Phase 2]

You're not wrong by any means, but I do think a lot of those people that are "stuck" may not be as stuck as they think they are. All it takes is someone giving enough of a crap to try to help them find something better. Or a little determination on their part. Way too many people just accept what they're given as the way things are, when it doesn't have to be that way.

The best thing we could do is create social programs for people to help them get out of minimum wage jobs they are stuck in. That would be more of a benefit.

I do agree the minimum wage needs to be higher, but not doubled. All that's going to do is help inflation and hurt some employers to the point they have to get rid of people. If jobs decrease, but minimum wage increases, are we really helping anyone? If rent and bills go up then that extra money from the increase means nothing to those people. Sure, on paper they make more, but they won't have more at the end of the day.

There are programs for the one's who can not afford to go to college, there called technical schools. Some even have a loan program . Also for those who dropped out of school before graduating. There is a online program to help you study for your GED, But you still have to go to your local technical school to take the actual GED test. And you can walk in your high school to be handed your high school equivalency diploma. Now some with very little resources, they are impoverished, their father or mother may be dependent on them staying home to help take care of them when they're sick or whatever. So a child drops out of school to help out by taking a job at say McDonald's for example. Thet get caught up by having two three babys by different men. They get on the WIC program food stamps. Then they get a check from welfare isn't much but it all starts to add up when millions are doing the same thing. Now as an adult it is very easy to fall into a trap, for lack of a better word, to find ones self 30 40+ years later when Mom, Dad, or other siblings have passed away and moved on. Than a really check is all you have to hold, or some charity organization like a church, food halls homeless shelters is all you have to fall back on. My point is the choices an individual makes will affect the future. Waiting for our government to save the world isn't the answer I wouldn't want to have to depend on.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You're not wrong by any means, but I do think a lot of those people that are "stuck" may not be as stuck as they think they are. All it takes is someone giving enough of a crap to try to help them find something better. Or a little determination on their part. Way too many people just accept what they're given as the way things are, when it doesn't have to be that way.

The best thing we could do is create social programs for people to help them get out of minimum wage jobs they are stuck in. That would be more of a benefit.

I do agree the minimum wage needs to be higher, but not doubled. All that's going to do is help inflation and hurt some employers to the point they have to get rid of people. If jobs decrease, but minimum wage increases, are we really helping anyone? If rent and bills go up then that extra money from the increase means nothing to those people. Sure, on paper they make more, but they won't have more at the end of the day.

Can't really argue with that. Many people are stuck in low-income ruts because they have to feed and keep a roof over themselves, so often can't take advantage of educational or training opportunities which may require them to forgo the small income they have.

 

[Ponzio]

 

[markw]

Food for thought...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/what-are-the-most-valuable-college-majors

 

[sterling shoote]

Institutionalize mental defectives. Prosecute Straw Purchase firearm transfers.

 

[Old Onkyo]

Food for thought...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/what-are-the-most-valuable-college-majors

Pet peeve of mine for years. People complaining about college tuition and student loans. They go to USC for example and get a teaching/ liberal arts/ communications/ women or minority degree, graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt, get a job paying 40k a year and wonder why they struggle.
Then they want the loan forgiven!

 

[RichB]

Pet peeve of mine for years. People complaining about college tuition and student loans. They go to USC for example and get a teaching/ liberal arts/ communications/ women or minority degree, graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt, get a job paying 40k a year and wonder why they struggle.
Then they want the loan forgiven!

This is what happens when you remove all responsible adults from the decision making. Remove the government from loans and sanity in pricing and choices will return.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

I certainly wasn't pointing any fingers at anyone - it was just a general statement. I realise that some people in dead end, minimum wage jobs are feckless layabouts. But, a great many are victims of their life circumstances. I don't believe they should be doubly punished by being forced to live on starvation wages or work multiple jobs to survive. Many affluent people think they achieved their success through nothing more than their own smarts and hard work. It's rarely as simple as that. Or, maybe I'm just a bleeding heart...

Often it is as simple as that. If you don't think education is valuable and worth putting effort into, if you blow your money on stupid stuff (e.g. alcohol, drugs, or tobacco, and fast food),and refuse to work hard, then you deserve what you get. And I'm not talking about sick or disabled people, or children, I'm talking about normal and relatively healthy adults. I know a lot of people who got wealthy without college degrees and without getting a jump start from their parents. They sacrificed and they worked hard. And my take is that if you won't get educated to the high school level, you won't hard, and you won't make sacrifices, then you're on your own. And if that sounds harsh, too bad. I admire people who are accountable for their own successes and failures.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Pet peeve of mine for years. People complaining about college tuition and student loans. They go to USC for example and get a teaching/ liberal arts/ communications/ women or minority degree, graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt, get a job paying 40k a year and wonder why they struggle.
Then they want the loan forgiven!

I totally agree. I know a fool who spent $90K on law school, mostly in loans, and then gets a job as a $60K per year attorney for a state agency. Naturally this fool is a strong Warren supporter.

 

[RichB]

I totally agree. I know a fool who spent $90K on law school, mostly in loans, and then gets a job as a $60K per year attorney for a state agency. Naturally this fool is a strong Warren supporter.

This person may be able to pay off the load at 1% per year, can coast, gets full-boat healthcare, and full boat retirement. Not a bad deal for him/her/they and definitely a bad deal for tax payers. The only thing worse is forgiving the loan.

I remember Hillary proposing forgiving loans for those who go into goverment service.
This is clear message to those who aspire to do something useful, like grow food, we are going to tuck it to you

- Rich

 

[markw]

Getting back to the original subject, some aren't gonna like this at all.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/second-amendment-gun-control-red-flag-jim-demint

 

[GO-NAD!]

Often it is as simple as that. If you don't think education is valuable and worth putting effort into, if you blow your money on stupid stuff (e.g. alcohol, drugs, or tobacco, and fast food),and refuse to work hard, then you deserve what you get. And I'm not talking about sick or disabled people, or children, I'm talking about normal and relatively healthy adults. I know a lot of people who got wealthy without college degrees and without getting a jump start from their parents. They sacrificed and they worked hard. And my take is that if you won't get educated to the high school level, you won't hard, and you won't make sacrifices, then you're on your own. And if that sounds harsh, too bad. I admire people who are accountable for their own successes and failures.

I'm not sure how you quantify "often", but if indeed it is an appreciable number, it's probably occurring in your own socio-economic circle. Anecdotal doesn't qualify as statistical. In other words, rarely is it that simple. The single largest factor determining one's future affluence is making the right choice of parents. Please read this, Irv.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

I'm not saying that you didn't earn everything you have from nothing more than smarts and hard work, but if you think it's that simple for everybody, your kidding yourself.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm not sure how you quantify "often", but if indeed it is an appreciable number, it's probably occurring in your own socio-economic circle. Anecdotal doesn't qualify as statistical. In other words, rarely is it that simple. The single largest factor determining one's future affluence is making the right choice of parents. Please read this, Irv.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

I'm not saying that you didn't earn everything you have from nothing more than smarts and hard work, but if you think it's that simple for everybody, your kidding yourself.

I've read that bleeding heart, guilt-ridden article before. I agree that who your parents are have been and always will be a big determining factor in the probability of your success, mostly based on whether or not they instill the values of education and hard work in you. Hard work wasn't my parents' thing at all, but at least they made it clear that it was incredibly difficult to succeed without a good basic education, so I got the basics. A lot of parents don't have the inclination to make education and hard work priorities, and their children are either going to figure it out on their own or they're going to be in the 25th percentile all their lives. As far as I'm concerned that's the end of story.

And I'm never, ever going to buy into this bullshit it's-not-my-fault-I'm-a-product-of-circumstances-so-it's-society's-fault line of thinking.

Shape up and get smart and serious, or live with the consequences.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I've read that bleeding heart, guilt-ridden article before. I agree that who your parents are have been and always will be a big determining factor in the probability of your success, mostly based on whether or not they instill the values of education and hard work in you. Hard work wasn't my parents' thing at all, but at least they made it clear that it was incredibly difficult to succeed without a good basic education, so I got the basics. A lot of parents don't have the inclination to make education and hard work priorities, and their children are either going to figure it out on their own or they're going to be in the 25th percentile all their lives. As far as I'm concerned that's the end of story.

And I'm never, ever going to buy into this bullshit it's-not-my-fault-I'm-a-product-of-circumstances-so-it's-society's-fault line of thinking.

Shape up and get smart and serious, or live with the consequences.

Bleeding heart and guilt-ridden it might be, but also based on real statistics. You may have missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of my comment about being born to the "right" parents, which could be read as "affluent" parents. One thing you are correct about though - it's not society's fault. Fault rests with the 10%-ers who have stacked the deck in their favour. Perhaps not as individuals, or in a conscious effort to keep the plebes down, but nevertheless, socio-economic mobility is, and has been, dropping. Not just in America, either. The only other explanation would be that the 90%-ers have gotten stupider and/or lazier. I doubt that's the case.

It's quite clear that we aren't going to find common ground on this topic, so in the interest of maintaining the peace, we may have to let it drop.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Fault rests with the 10%-ers who have stacked the deck in their favour.

Fine. I'll go back to stacking the deck.

 

[highfigh]

Institutionalize mental defectives. Prosecute Straw Purchase firearm transfers.

And how would you determine who's mentally 'fit' & who's not, especially in light of the fact that the firearm application has one whole question regarding mental health and HIPAA prevents access to that info without jumping through a lot of hoops? How would you know if a straw sale is being transacted? Do you expect people who would commit that particular crime to suddenly grow a conscience and obey the law?

 

[Ponzio]

All I'm hearing here is roadblocks and looking for a complete cure. There is no complete cure. Crimes of passion, criminal activity, etc. aren't magically going to disappear.

I'm just trying to engineer the problem down, like other countries have. Less guns, less killings; a proven fact, the world over. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm a gun owner myself but I'm not hunting down Bambi with a modified AR-15, not if I want some deer meat leftover to grill, instead of the cartridges.