No Differences Between "Core" DTS and Lossless DTS-HD MA Stream?

[jostenmeat]

But my Onkyo 605 retails for less than what that Denon 2808 prices out at; plus, I am not running Audyssey at all on my 605 -- I am running manual adjustments and trim levels. Does this still apply then?

So, you're saying that it's not so much the processor not being able to fully squeeze the decoding out of the soundtracks (lossless) it's more when Audyssey etc. systems are "overloaded" so to speak?

Can it be confirmed that units such as the 605 are actually powerful enough, processor-wise, to fully decode and process the lossless bitstream signals from TrueHD and DTS-MA sources?

As far as decoding, AFAIK, the power needed is a bare minimum: it's just unzipping/unpacking a compressed file. Now, as to what the term "process" might actually mean in playing it back, I don't know.

If you don't use Audyssey, then I guess it won't use more processor power. However, I think when that discussion came up, we were talking about the highest consumer version with the MultEQ XT, and yours is the bottom end with 2eq. I am not even sure what 2eq exactly does. IOW, I am not even sure if even as engaged that it would strain processor power.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Much bigger factors are your room acoustics, your speakers, and where you place everything, including yourself.

I've held my tongue for a bit there, but personally, I have found Polk entry level speakers to be perhaps the worst speakers I've ever heard. For instance, I honestly find entry level Onkyo HTIB speakers to be considerably superior to the Polk R150, for instance. That is harsh, but also just my honest opinion on the matter.

You might consider a speaker upgrade in the future, if audio improvements mean so much to you as to spend all this time in this thread. I surely cannot guarantee that the MA stream will finally hit you like a ray of light coming through parting dark clouds, but I can guarantee you that everything will sound better, and that includes core, MA, and even infomercials.

 

[anamorphic96]

If the display on your receiver comes up and says it's decoding the HD formats then its decoding them. Plain and simple. The differences between the formats are not that big. As stated in the article.

They are using reference caliber equipment in acoustically treated rooms. This should tell you that if the differences where so great they would be noticed in these scenarios.

If I where to take 100 people off this site and put them in the same situation as the test and level matched and blindfolded them to control human bias. I doubt more than a handful could tell the differences between the formats. The ones that could probably would not hear big differences either. The original lossy codecs at there full bit rates are that good. I don't know how else to explain it to you. It's just that simple. Just sit back relax and enjoy and stop over thinking this.

If you want to hear true meaningful improvements in the sound you are hearing. Invest in room treatments and better speakers. Entry level Polks are not that great. Polk makes good speakers. But the R series are pure rubbish. Try looking into some entry level PSB, Paradigm, or Energy speakers if you want good sound on the cheap. The entry level Energy Take system is much better than the Polk R series. You can get the 5.0 system for 200 or less.

 

[nibhaz]

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Much bigger factors are your room acoustics, your speakers, and where you place everything, including yourself.

I've held my tongue for a bit there, but personally, I have found Polk entry level speakers to be perhaps the worst speakers I've ever heard. For instance, I honestly find entry level Onkyo HTIB speakers to be considerably superior to the Polk R150, for instance. That is harsh, but also just my honest opinion on the matter.

You might consider a speaker upgrade in the future, if audio improvements mean so much to you as to spend all this time in this thread. I surely cannot guarantee that the MA stream will finally hit you like a ray of light coming through parting dark clouds, but I can guarantee you that everything will sound better, and that includes core, MA, and even infomercials.

They are using reference caliber equipment in acoustically treated rooms. This should tell you that if the differences where so great they would be noticed in these scenarios.

If I where to take 100 people off this site and put them in the same situation as the test and level matched and blindfolded them to control human bias. I doubt more than a handful could tell the differences between the formats. The ones that could probably would not hear big differences either. The original lossy codecs at there full bit rates are that good. I don't know how else to explain it to you. It's just that simple. Just sit back relax and enjoy and stop over thinking this.

If you want to hear true meaningful improvements in the sound you are hearing. Invest in room treatments and better speakers. Entry level Polks are not that great. Polk makes good speakers. But the R series are pure rubbish. Try looking into some entry level PSB, Paradigm, or Energy speakers if you want good sound on the cheap. The entry level Energy Take system is much better than the Polk R series. You can get the 5.0 system for 200 or less.

There is just so much truth in these posts that they have to be quoted.

While you are spending a considerable amount of time and effort on trying to tackle this DTS-MA “issue” as you perceive it, I believe that it is ultimately going to be in vain. Your chasing what most would concede is nothing more than a nuanced improvement in sound.

Whilst it is commendable and understandable to want to get every last drop of performance out of the equipment that you have. You need to manage your expectations in regards to your whole reproduction chain and what “source based” improvements it can actually resolve.

Speakers and room acoustics have the biggest effect on a system’s performance by a long shot, and if you are really serious about chasing improvement these are the two areas that you should be focusing your energies on.

If your budget is blown or the funds just aren’t there, then I would just sit back and enjoy the system that you have. Trust me, I do this every day!


P.S. The thread has been a great read, and if it’s just been a mental exercise, then by all means continue, but if you want to get serious, then you should be looking at better speakers, not your receivers’ capabilities.

 

[nibhaz]

It is term related to DSPs

What does MIP stand for? Thanks.

MIPS (Million Instruction Per Second).


"On some processors you get 1 instruction per cycle, some take 2 cycles per
instruction and some take 4. Some processors are pipelined so they can do
3 parts of instructions in 1 cycle, so they are reported as 1 instruction
per cycle (when they really aren't). Cycles are the number of clock pulses
fed into a procssor. MIPS is million instructions per second. They are
not always the same, and in many cases the total number of cycles to do
something is a lot more useful than a MIPS rating."

First post on this page.

 

[Alex2507]

If your budget is blown or the funds just aren’t there, then I would just sit back and enjoy the system that you have. Trust me, I do this every day!

Me too! Sometimes on two different systems!

 

[jostenmeat]

Do you have any thoughts or knowledge about the 805 in regards to what it is you are talking about? Thanks.

I will pay you 2 cents for your time.

Welp, I found out what the 805 uses for the DSP chips, thanks to a regular at the 805 thread at AVS.

It uses three DSP chips: DAC710, D708, and D707

The DACs I already knew were PCM1796.

Here is the link that was offered to me.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Onkyo+TXSR+705+and+TXSR+805+AV+receivers.-a0178450770

 

[PearlcorderS701]

As far as decoding, AFAIK, the power needed is a bare minimum: it's just unzipping/unpacking a compressed file. Now, as to what the term "process" might actually mean in playing it back, I don't know.

If you don't use Audyssey, then I guess it won't use more processor power. However, I think when that discussion came up, we were talking about the highest consumer version with the MultEQ XT, and yours is the bottom end with 2eq. I am not even sure what 2eq exactly does. IOW, I am not even sure if even as engaged that it would strain processor power.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Much bigger factors are your room acoustics, your speakers, and where you place everything, including yourself.

I've held my tongue for a bit there, but personally, I have found Polk entry level speakers to be perhaps the worst speakers I've ever heard. For instance, I honestly find entry level Onkyo HTIB speakers to be considerably superior to the Polk R150, for instance. That is harsh, but also just my honest opinion on the matter.

You might consider a speaker upgrade in the future, if audio improvements mean so much to you as to spend all this time in this thread. I surely cannot guarantee that the MA stream will finally hit you like a ray of light coming through parting dark clouds, but I can guarantee you that everything will sound better, and that includes core, MA, and even infomercials.

Thanks for your heartfelt opinions on the matter; indeed, a speaker upgrade is at the top of my priority chain, believe me -- ESPECIALLY my sub (it's a PSW10). We'll be moving soon, and I will be upgrading to some good main towers for the front soundstage at least, plus a sub at some point.

And I suppose that's where I'd like to thank everyone else for their thoughts and opinions on this matter in this thread; but please don't find yourselves losing patience or becoming irritated by the fact that the thread is continuing all this time through all these pages...it's not my intention, at all, to cause bitter vibes between all of you established members. I'm just trying to exhaust every possibility in terms of tracking down this DTS/MA issue. It's been suggested that by all means, I can "continue discussing these matters in this thread for the sake of conversation..." or to "flex some discussion muscle" (these are not direct quotes) but that's not really what I'm trying to do by asking all these questions...please believe me there. I truly am concerned as to why I am not hearing any difference between the core DTS stream of a Blu-ray Master Audio title soundtrack and its fully lossless counterpart.

That said, I understand and will take under advisement the suggestions that my speaker array may be to blame for a lot of this -- these Polk R20 mains, along with my R15 surrounds, CSi30 center and PSW10 sub, are a carryover from my very first surround system, so I am due for an upgrade.

Given this, and so I can possibly report back with any changes to the soundstage once I upgrade, can anyone recommend good replacements for my R20 mains and such? I would be looking for a pair of floor-standing towers for my mains in the new setup, and depending on the house me and my wife end up buying in the next few weeks, I will probably already have pre-wired surrounds in the ceiling; this would leave the two mains and a good new sub. Any suggestions?

Further, if I decide to keep my CSi30 center channel, do I have to stick with Polk for the new main towers in order to keep front stage coherency? Would it be recommended to just get a new center, as well, so the left center right all come from the same brand? And what about the sub...should I be looking at HSU, SVS, Bag End, etc?

 

[PENG]

That said, I understand and will take under advisement the suggestions that my speaker array may be to blame for a lot of this -- these Polk R20 mains, along with my R15 surrounds, CSi30 center and PSW10 sub, are a carryover from my very first surround system, so I am due for an upgrade.

The key word is 'may' but not 'a lot'. In fact, from what I have read so far most of us are telling you that any differences between core DTS and DTS-HD-MA are minute, hardly audible, you have to listen hard to detect the difference.....etc. Can you accept the fact that may be we are right?

In the last couple of posts people are simply suggesting that you will gain more in sound quality improvements by upgrading the speakers, than to go from core DTS to DTS-HD-MA. In other words, if you upgrade to say a pair of Paradigm S8 or B&W802D, or even the price on object $85,000 Dynaudio Evidence Master, you may still have hard time hearing the differences between the two codecs.

 

[anamorphic96]

I second what Peng is saying as well. Even new speakers will not yield the differences you think your supposed to be hearing between the formats. As these difference do not exist. You seem to keep missing the point of this conversation. The tests in the article where performed using reference quality equipment and the differences where subtle at best between the formats. Do you understand the point being made.

 

[croseiv]

The key word is 'may' but not 'a lot'. In fact, from what I have read so far most of us are telling you that any differences between core DTS and DTS-HD-MA are minute, hardly audible, you have to listen hard to detect the difference.....etc. Can you accept the fact that may be we are right?

Yep. To my ears, there does not appear to be much of a difference between DTS and DTS-HD Master Audio most of the time. I know I have said that before somewhere around here. I can definitely distinguish DD5.1 from True HD stuff though, and I like True HD. In general I find the lossless stuff to be more enveloping and realistic sounding though. Punchier, more sizzle and ambience. I still think one of the best tracks out right now is Kung Fu Panda (True HD).

 

[nibhaz]

PearlcorderS701 I was by no means trying to dissuade you from further pursuing the topic, but rather was trying to emphasize the importance of speakers and room acoustics.

To be honest, I don’t have any direct experience with DTS-MA because my Bluray player is too old And I don’t want to spend the big bucks to get a newer player that has the same upscaling capabilities.

If I truly thought the sound difference was going to be night and day, I would have already made the upgrade, but to be honest, I just don’t see it as a good ROI for me at this point. The article that anamorphic96 has provided really drives the point home that it’s a subtle improvement in an ideal listening environment. What can one honestly expect, if their room and equipment is not top-shelf?

I dunno, but I do know I have a laundry list of other things to buy and accomplish, that are going to make a noticeable improvement to my room and system. So that’s where I choose to focus my energies, but to each his own, I guess.


Where is your listening position? Is it near 38% or 62% the length of the room? Is it slightly off center to reduce width based modes?

How close are your mains to the front wall? Side boundaries? How wide apart are they? Distance to LP? Have you experimented with toe-in?

Are all your channels level matched? Distance correctly set in the receiver?

Are the early reflection point treated?

This is the kind of stuff I worry about first, then the smaller stuff.

IMHO the subjects I just mentioned are going to have a much bigger effect on how good your system is going to sound, in comparison to the difference between DTS core and core+extensions.



As far as speaker suggestions go, we’ll need a budget to work with, so figure that out first.

Are you absolutely set on having towers for mains?

Yes, you should probably stick with Polk, if you want to keep your current center.

SUBS: HSU, SVS, eD (elemental designs), Rythmik, Epik, Outlaw…I’m sure I’m forgetting some, but that will get you started.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

The key word is 'may' but not 'a lot'. In fact, from what I have read so far most of us are telling you that any differences between core DTS and DTS-HD-MA are minute, hardly audible, you have to listen hard to detect the difference.....etc. Can you accept the fact that may be we are right?

Of course I can accept that you all may be right -- I was merely saying that the speakers can and should definitely be upgraded, not that I would suddenly hear a night and day difference.

In the last couple of posts people are simply suggesting that you will gain more in sound quality improvements by upgrading the speakers, than to go from core DTS to DTS-HD-MA. In other words, if you upgrade to say a pair of Paradigm S8 or B&W802D, or even the price on object $85,000 Dynaudio Evidence Master, you may still have hard time hearing the differences between the two codecs.

I suppose this is where I went South with a bit of confusion; I thought it was being suggested to me that if I do in fact upgrade the speakers I may hear some subtleties and nuances in the tracks that I hadn't experienced before -- either way, though, without going too much more into the differences we're all having here in opinion and stances, I need to upgrade my speakers no matter what. I feel a bit better though that most are now saying the differences are almost indistingushable between core DTS on a Blu-ray and the lossless MA version.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I second what Peng is saying as well. Even new speakers will not yield the differences you think your supposed to be hearing between the formats. As these difference do not exist. You seem to keep missing the point of this conversation. The tests in the article where performed using reference quality equipment and the differences where subtle at best between the formats. Do you understand the point being made.

It's not that I'm "missing the point of the conversation"...it's that there's been different viewpoints/takes on the topic all through the multiple page run; at least it seemed that way to me. Once it was suggested to me that I should probably upgrade my speakers for at least some kind of upgrade, it made things a bit different.

Look, at any rate, the matter comes down to the fact that there shouldn't be much difference between the codecs, and that was the essential question I had.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Yep. To my ears, there does not appear to be much of a difference between DTS and DTS-HD Master Audio most of the time.

Thank you, 'cros.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

PearlcorderS701 I was by no means trying to dissuade you from further pursuing the topic, but rather was trying to emphasize the importance of speakers and room acoustics.

No problem.

The article that anamorphic96 has provided really drives the point home that it’s a subtle improvement in an ideal listening environment. What can one honestly expect, if their room and equipment is not top-shelf?

Gotcha. Makes sense.

Where is your listening position? Is it near 38% or 62% the length of the room? Is it slightly off center to reduce width based modes?

At the moment, the sweet spot is eight feet from the display and front soundstage, right in front of the display. The Polk R20 mains flank the TV, with the stands they're on toed in slightly towards the main listening position.

How close are your mains to the front wall? Side boundaries? How wide apart are they? Distance to LP? Have you experimented with toe-in?

As I said, they're toed-in (the mains) and they're about a foot or so off the front wall, on Sanus stands...they are as wide apart as my 50" Sony SXRD display is on its Bell'O stand, flanking the TV..listening position is eight feet from the front stage.

Are all your channels level matched? Distance correctly set in the receiver?

Absolutely. Everything is calibrated with the correct distances.

Are the early reflection point treated?

No treatments are being done; I was renting and now I will be buying a place.

IMHO the subjects I just mentioned are going to have a much bigger effect on how good your system is going to sound, in comparison to the difference between DTS core and core+extensions.

Gotcha. Hopefully my feedback here will give you an idea of my room's layout and such; the receiver's speaker levels and distances, etc. have all been correctly set.

As far as speaker suggestions go, we’ll need a budget to work with, so figure that out first.

Well, the budget isn't limitless, and I can't afford to allocate, say, even $4K or so for them...so I was thinking at least a nice pair of front towers first and then a sub...

Are you absolutely set on having towers for mains?

Well, I'd like to as this system will be shared for two channel listening as well, and I do not want the hassles of bookshelves on stands again, as it was a nightmare for this last install.

Yes, you should probably stick with Polk, if you want to keep your current center.

If I use my current CSi30 center, do I need to stick with a certain Polk line in order to make sure that they're timbre matched?

SUBS: HSU, SVS, eD (elemental designs), Rythmik, Epik, Outlaw…I’m sure I’m forgetting some, but that will get you started.

Thanks. Is there a certain one you absolutely recommend for bone-rattling LFE? Would this be SVS?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, but I still want that big a$$ "DTS-HD MASTR" and "DOLBY TrueHD" on my Denon's LCD screen!!!

 

[croseiv]

Yeah, but I still want that big a$$ "DTS-HD MASTR" and "DOLBY TrueHD" on my Denon's LCD screen!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No matter how many times I see those "DTS-HD MASTR" & "DOLBY TrueHD", I still get a grin on my face.

It's like a daily routine: Wake up --> Brush teeth --> Get dressed --> Go to work --> Go to Wal-Mart --> DTS-HD MASTR & DOLBY TrueHD.

 

[PENG]

Of course I can accept that you all may be right -- I was merely saying that the speakers can and should definitely be upgraded, not that I would suddenly hear a night and day difference.

Assuming you like Polk speakers, if you upgrade to a pair of Polk Audio LSI 15 or even LSI 9 plus a LSIC you should suddenly hear a big improvement. My point earlier was that even upgraded speakers, you still may not hear much difference between the core and the MA because the core will sound much better too with the better speakers. The LSI are 4 ohm nominal speakers so you should get an amp to power them. A low cost amp such as the EMO XPA-3 should be good enough. The easier to drive RTiA9 is a reasonable alternative. Any mid range AVR should do reasonably well with the RTiA series.

I suppose this is where I went South with a bit of confusion; I thought it was being suggested to me that if I do in fact upgrade the speakers I may hear some subtleties and nuances in the tracks that I hadn't experienced before --

Again, I thought peopler were simply suggesting that you will get far more improvements by upgrading your speakers, but such upgrade will improve both core and MA so the difference between the two would still be small. That being said, the small difference may be magnified somewhat but any such slightly magnified difference may be more than offset by the fact that your hearing sense may approach closer to the point of diminishing.

either way, though, without going too much more into the differences we're all having here in opinion and stances, I need to upgrade my speakers no matter what. I feel a bit better though that most are now saying the differences are almost indistingushable between core DTS on a Blu-ray and the lossless MA version.

Yes, based on the fact that you are obviously pursuing better SQ, you do need to upgrade your speakers. Speakers and room acoustic condition are two major factors that contribute to sound quality.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

It's like a daily routine: Go to Wal-Mart