newbie's dilemma: high end hi-fi setup for low $$$

[krabapple]

If you want to have the best bang for the buck, you need to of course forget about full range towers. They are too expensive in relation to performance you can get. You need to focus on the best possible bookshelf speakers possible and combine them with stereo subwoofers to effect a full range speaker system. As such, you need to use a powerful DSP xover such as the Behringer DCX2496 to enable seamless integration of bookshelf speakers and subwoofers.

Slight side-note -- Chris, have you seen the thread with Earl Geddes participating, over on AVSF, about his ideas for multi-sub setup (he's also recently added a DCX to the chain)? Lots of junk from the peanut gallery to wade through, but there are some interesting nuggets in there.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124011

 

[Matt34]

Lots of junk from the peanut gallery to wade through, but there are some interesting nuggets in there.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124011

That's an under statement even for AVS forums.

 

[lsiberian]

Slight side-note -- Chris, have you seen the thread with Earl Geddes participating, over on AVSF, about his ideas for multi-sub setup (he's also recently added a DCX to the chain)? Lots of junk from the peanut gallery to wade through, but there are some interesting nuggets in there.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124011

Agreed some very good nuggets are in this post. But the peanut gallery is annoying.

I suggest you just read what Gedlee says and ignore most of the others posts.

 

[AJinFLA]

It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to get good 2ch sound with that arrangement. One should sit in an approximate equilateral triangle with the speakers. Where do you propose to sit and place the speakers? Or is the SAF amicable to rearrangement? (the furnishings, that is ).

cheers,

AJ

p.s. nice drawing btw. who did it?

 

[krabapple]

That's an under statement even for AVS forums.

D'you think there's proportionally more of a peanut gallery there than here?

 

[kedzior]

i see what you're saying AJ, achieving equilateral triangle relation in current layout is impossible. Moving/adding or removing furnishings is not a big deal. Any suggestions? Let me think about it also. As far as the drawing goes, well, that's what i do for living, if you need anything drawn let me know, i'll do it, free of charge Big thanks AJ

 

[AJinFLA]

The least intrusive would be to place one by the piano and the other between the windows, then listen slightly off center on the sofa. But then there's the issue of wires.
The ideal position for 2ch reproduction with that layout, would be speakers (and media center, which hopefully is low profile) in front of the wall where the loveseat and side table now are. Perhaps putting the piano where the media center is now and putting the love seat where the living room text is, facing the window?

cheers,

AJ

 

[scotties2006]

Good luck w/ this. Seems like there's a great deal of knowledgable people here. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would remove the myth that 2.0 or 2.1 music only sounds good on stereo 2.0 gears (stereo preamps, stereo integrated amps).

I had a $550 Harman Kardon receiver that sounded extremely good in 2.0 stereo direct mode.

Our needs change quite often. It may only be 2.0 today, but you never know when you may want to try 5.1 later.

 

[kedzior]

AJ, i like your idea, however the media unit is not low profile. I can't find any rational solution either, i had the same idea about speaker placement as you did in first place, meaning putting one speaker on the left side of the piano and another one across the room between the windows, but I didn't take into the account wiring. So it looks that L-shaped rooms are not good for 2-chan setup, are they? I wish i had an extra room in my apt., I may have to switch the location back to the original. Damn it, this is getting more crazy than I thought. In the meantime i've checked the local a/v dealers and will visit them next week to get a better grip on this hi-fi things.

 

[joebob]

If you want to have the best bang for the buck, you need to of course forget about full range towers. They are too expensive in relation to performance you can get. You need to focus on the best possible bookshelf speakers possible and combine them with stereo subwoofers to effect a full range speaker system. As such, you need to use a powerful DSP xover such as the Behringer DCX2496 to enable seamless integration of bookshelf speakers and subwoofers. In addition, the DCX has powerful filters that will allow you to achieve a wide variety of tonal signatures so that you can adjust the sound to your preference(s). I won't even bother with the consumer amplifiers mentioned so far. A Yamaha P2500S is a superb quality amplifier that is relatively low cost for it's high power performance and will also connect to the DCX device easily(XLR). Trying to keep everything the same brand is pointless if you want the highest performance for the dollar. I don't know how you would find a device like the DCX2496 in the same brand as your other gear. Do you seriously want to give up performance just so that all of the name badges match?

-Chris

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the point about bookshelves vs floorstanders. There's a pretty wide range in both price and quality in both types of speakers. To me, the bookshelves generally are lacking in mid bass. I would rather spend the money on a good set of floorstanders than on an extra sub. With the right speakers you might want to drop the sub altogether. Here's what I came up with after a brief visit to audiogon.

Denon 4308CI Receiver 1,500
Denon 2910 DVD Player 250
Canton Karat M-70 1,100
SVS CS Ultra Sub 575

Like others have posted, the speakers are very subjective and you should listen to as many as you can. The receiver is also a HT receiver, but it gives you flexibility if you want to add to the system in the future. You may want to go the separates route, but you can always add an amp in the future if you think you need more juice.

Good luck with your purchase. If you do your homework you'll get years of enjoyment from it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the Def Tech BP10B (reviewed by Julian Hirsch/Stereo Review) and the Aperion 6T are fine tower speakers that don't cost very much.

I can get the BP10B brand new from my Authorized DT dealer for $500.

The 6T is $700.

The NHT Classic Four (normally $1K, is now $750 each) is also another excellent one.

 

[lsiberian]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the point about bookshelves vs floorstanders. There's a pretty wide range in both price and quality in both types of speakers. To me, the bookshelves generally are lacking in mid bass. I would rather spend the money on a good set of floorstanders than on an extra sub. With the right speakers you might want to drop the sub altogether. Here's what I came up with after a brief visit to audiogon.

Denon 4308CI Receiver 1,500
Denon 2910 DVD Player 250
Canton Karat M-70 1,100
SVS CS Ultra Sub 575

Like others have posted, the speakers are very subjective and you should listen to as many as you can. The receiver is also a HT receiver, but it gives you flexibility if you want to add to the system in the future. You may want to go the separates route, but you can always add an amp in the future if you think you need more juice.

Good luck with your purchase. If you do your homework you'll get years of enjoyment from it.

You can agree to disagree all you want, but some of your suggestions are questionable.

1. That sub would be very unlikely to fill that room and is ugly on top of that.

2. A multi-sub system with bookshelves with a DCX2496 will best almost any 2 tower system in the OPs price range. Sorry but there is no drop off in any bass if you use a DCX2496 correctly. It's an EQ so it can equalize the FR in the bass range. If your tech savvy you can really upgrade your sound and do room corrections with it.

3. A 1500 dollar receiver is overkill for the OPs budget.
3/4k budget and your spending half on a receiver. when speakers make the sound. 600 dollars should be the max you spend on a receiver on a 3k budget. I suggest an Onkyo 805 or 905 from accessories4less. It's an amazing deal and is equal to a 4308 IMO. But if your rack space is limited look at a 700 series Onkyo. 40lbs may be over your weight limit.

Save the rest for speakers

In fact find your speakers first! Then figure out how much you have left for a receiver. Even if you need to hit up ebay.

 

[joebob]

You can agree to disagree all you want, but some of your suggestions are questionable.

1. That sub would be very unlikely to fill that room and is ugly on top of that.

2. A multi-sub system with bookshelves with a DCX2496 will best almost any 2 tower system in the OPs price range. Sorry but there is no drop off in any bass if you use a DCX2496 correctly. It's an EQ so it can equalize the FR in the bass range. If your tech savvy you can really upgrade your sound and do room corrections with it.

3. A 1500 dollar receiver is overkill for the OPs budget.
3/4k budget and your spending half on a receiver. when speakers make the sound. 600 dollars should be the max you spend on a receiver on a 3k budget. I suggest an Onkyo 805 or 905 from accessories4less. It's an amazing deal and is equal to a 4308 IMO. But if your rack space is limited look at a 700 series Onkyo. 40lbs may be over your weight limit.

Save the rest for speakers

In fact find your speakers first! Then figure out how much you have left for a receiver. Even if you need to hit up ebay.

So, we can agree to disagree. I do, however, think you made some good points. I took a quick stab at the setup and I would have to agree that the receiver is a little high, based on the total budget. You can find a good receiver in the $600 to $700 range if you go with b-stock, used, or a slightly older model. I would still go with Denon or Yamaha over the Onkyo but any of them, as well as Marantz, would work. I also like the idea of starting with the speakers and determining the rest of your budget from there. I would still go with floorstanders, especially for music. To me they seem to produce fuller, more pleasing sound than bookshelves. I could be that I haven't heard the right combination with the bookshelves, but it seems like you would have to go through a lot of trouble to achieve what you'd get from the big boys.

Anyway, nice discussion. I wish I had auditioned more speakers before I bought mine.

 

[WmAx]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the point about bookshelves vs floorstanders. There's a pretty wide range in both price and quality in both types of speakers. To me, the bookshelves generally are lacking in mid bass. I would rather spend the money on a good set of floorstanders than on an extra sub.

You can disagree if you so desire, but I do not believe you have ever executed the specific set up that I described. Because if you did, it would be MORE capable than most floor standers, and have lower resonance (since a bookshelf speaker inherently has much lower acoustic output from it's much smaller panel surface area) as an added benefit. But for this to work properly, you must use stereo/dual (so that you can cross over high enough to reduce the excursion of the bookshelf mids substantially AND have seamless integration...which requires the subs to be very close to the bookshelf speakers) high quality subwoofers and a precision outboard active xover(without a precision active crossover, there is no way to integrate the subs and mains as a seamless system) as I specified.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Slight side-note -- Chris, have you seen the thread with Earl Geddes participating, over on AVSF, about his ideas for multi-sub setup (he's also recently added a DCX to the chain)? Lots of junk from the peanut gallery to wade through, but there are some interesting nuggets in there.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124011

Sorry, I do not pay attention to Geddes. But multi-subwoofer application has been researched by many acoustics experts and is well understood at this point. Multiple subwoofer can always be beneficial over a single unit when set up properly to distribute/average the LF response.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Would you kindly oblige to answer a question or two I might have? Of course, I am familiar with your recommendation, but could you please outline what kind of compromises would be incurred if one was to use a single subwoofer, playing mono, with a pair of bookshelves?

You mentioned once . . . as long as the sub was within a quarter wavelength of the xover point . . . or something like that? Perhaps this implies that with a smaller room, or smaller distance between the speakers could one more easily more compromise with one subwoofer? Any other tweaks to make this compromise more feasible? I suppose lower xover point, but I fear that cannot be low enough in most cases. . .

You have essentially answered your own questions. The problem with a single subwoofer is that it can not be crossed low enough to integrate with the two bookshelf speaker mains most of the time. One point is to cross high enough to substantially reduce the excursion(thus substantially increasing dynamic range and lowering distortion) of the mid-bass drivers on the bookshelf speaker, which typically requires a crossover point of 90-100Hz. In a very small room, one could theoretically place the subwoofer directly in the middle of the two bookshelf speakers.... but this position is typically the worst for the subwoofer, resulting in substantially reduced acoustic output and a worse room response curve.

-Chris

 

[cwall99]

Fwit

I gotta go along with wmax. A 12 x 14 room is pretty small, and if I recall, you said you had about 3K to drop.... I'd look at spending about 2K of that on speakers, and for that amount of money, you oughtta be able to find a gorgeous pair of speakers.

I have no idea what anything costs, but I'd look at B&Ws. Granted, the pair I have (DM603 s3s) are no longer in production, but they're a gorgeous sounding speaker (imaging is awesome, very crisp and open highs, tight, punchy bass, blah, blah, blah... but they are yummy to listen to), and I got the pair for $700 (which was a 30% discount cuz I had the good fortune to walk into the store the same day as the new 684s were arriving).

I love 'em, and I'm sure with your budget, B&W has a nice pair of speakers.

As far as a source goes, I really like my cheapo Oppo 980H. The thing only cost $170, and it gets rave reviews all over the place. I love the thing. Especially since I have a mess of SACD and DVD-A.

As far as your amp or receiver choices go, you got me. I think they probably have the least amount of impact on sound of all the links in the chain except maybe speaker cables and interconnects, so just make sure you get the features and power you want.

 

[jostenmeat]

You have essentially answered your own questions. The problem with a single subwoofer is that it can not be crossed low enough to integrate with the two bookshelf speaker mains most of the time. One point is to cross high enough to substantially reduce the excursion(thus substantially increasing dynamic range and lowering distortion) of the mid-bass drivers on the bookshelf speaker, which typically requires a crossover point of 90-100Hz. In a very small room, one could theoretically place the subwoofer directly in the middle of the two bookshelf speakers.... but this position is typically the worst for the subwoofer, resulting in substantially reduced acoustic output and a worse room response curve.

-Chris

Thanks, Chris. When you state the benefits of increasing dynamic range and lowering distortion, what kind of thresholds are you talking about? If, say, I listen to classical music at roughly 75db slow weighted, the peaks that may occur at over 100db will have more headroom? What if any peaks I listened to were considerably less than 100db? I assume the distortion is audible indeed, since you would not have mentioned this benefit otherwise.

If the subwoofer is playing at sub 40hz frequencies, one might say that the larger excursions would reduce the dynamic range of the freq range, say, of 60hz-100hz. Now, of course, if you knew that to be true, you would not make this sort of recommendation. Thinking along these lines, could a pair of bookshelves (if they existed), with 7" mid drivers work successfully with a mono sub? (Of course, you would fear the larger cabinet and the resonances that come along with that. Oh yeah, and of course you might mention again the less than ideal placement of the SW).

Sorry that I'm beating this topic; I just think that aesthetically speaking, a single sub could be nice, as well as with reduced costs with some luck. I understand that your recommendation is based on performance for the dollar, and not prettiness. With that in mind, any suggestions to make the dual bookshelves + dual subs look a bit more welcome in a living room? A hefty short bookshelf stand with rubber feet on top of the sub would be fine?

I'm just blabbering along. Could you tell me what the excursion normally is for a typical sized mid woofer playing, say, 80hz at a typical volume?

I can find the 1/4 wavelength distance by using: velocity = wavelength * frequency... ? Therefore, 1/4 wavelength of 90hz is roughly 3.14 feet(?). Which would mean that if using only one subwoofer, I'd need the mains to be within 6.28 feet of each other?

Thanks for answering any of the questions.

 

[krabapple]

Sorry, I do not pay attention to Geddes. But multi-subwoofer application has been researched by many acoustics experts and is well understood at this point. Multiple subwoofer can always be beneficial over a single unit when set up properly to distribute/average the LF response.

-Chris

Geddes doesn't disagree with that.