New user with some questions

[KEW]

I would like to query the respondents about the HH Scott Amp.
I had a HH Scott receiver from the early 70's (maybe late 60's).
It was well built (made in the USA) and I bought it in '77 used from a local audio shop.
Fast forward to 1987, returned to being a broke student for grad school and looking for the cheapest video cassette player I could find. I got one for $80 and it was an HH Scott!
Made in China and generally a piece of crap, but it did work so no complaints given the price.
However, I had the impression that the once respected HH Scott label had been purchased and was now being put on low quality gear like happened with Sansui.
Have you seen some indication that the amp is a quality unit?

 

[KEW]

I'm not huge on bass beyond say, what a bass drum actually sounds like live.

Assuming you are talking a Kick Drum... 50Hz!
Quite honestly, with a 12" woofer and at 35Hz to 20kHz, +/-3dB, I would not get too excited about a sub. Your speakers were designed as full range music speakers before subs became a common part of the equation.
But be your own judge, here are some frequencies of various instruments:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

This is an interactive chart, so drag the cursor over any area of interest.

Aside from pipe organ and modern electronica (which are not addressed on this chart), you are not missing much and I would not recommend concerning yourself with a sub unless you feel what you have is not getting the job done.

To get the full benefits of a sub, you need good bass management, to get good bass management, you will need a receiver designed with a crossover to unload the low frequencies from your speakers, to use that, you need to have a TV connected, etc.

 

[MrBoat]

I would like to query the respondents about the HH Scott Amp.
I had a HH Scott receiver from the early 70's (maybe late 60's).
It was well built (made in the USA) and I bought it in '77 used from a local audio shop.
Fast forward to 1987, returned to being a broke student for grad school and looking for the cheapest video cassette player I could find. I got one for $80 and it was an HH Scott!
Made in China and generally a piece of crap, but it did work so no complaints given the price.
However, I had the impression that the once respected HH Scott label had been purchased and was now being put on low quality gear like happened with Sansui.
Have you seen some indication that the amp is a quality unit?

It's crap, but then, it's almost 30 years old and never been in for repairs of any kind and it's been used hard. The higher quality audiophile equipment of the times was unobtainable to anyone I knew coming up in the trades then unless they still lived with their parents. None of the controls on this are scratchy. The transformer is quite large for what this is. I have others from the same era for comparison. The speakers I just got seem to be helping it. Fisher was bought by Emerson (the electric fan company) and Pioneer went thru some weird competitive business associations. This HH Scott on the other hand, looks as though that even though it was built in Taiwan, seems to be to American engineering standards, if that makes sense. Like the trend now with American power tools mostly made in China with the same feel of their domestic offerings of a decade ago or so.

Maybe HH Scott still had a warehouse full of these parts and just needed cheap labor to contend. I don't know, but it actually sounds ok. It had not been turned on for years, although, I found it on one day that either the dog laid against it or one of the grandkids were pushing buttons but for all I know, it could have been on for months. I cleaned all the dog, cat hair and dust bunnies out of it and it worked and it's loud as all get out. Nothing distorts until well above 100w and I cannot tell if it's distortion in the system, or just so unbearably loud that it's my ear drums imploding instead.

 

[MrBoat]

Assuming you are talking a Kick Drum... 50Hz!
Quite honestly, with a 12" woofer and at 35Hz to 20kHz, +/-3dB, I would not get too excited about a sub. Your speakers were designed as full range music speakers before subs became a common part of the equation.
But be your own judge, here are some frequencies of various instruments:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

This is an interactive chart, so drag the cursor over any area of interest.

Aside from pipe organ and modern electronica (which are not addressed on this chart), you are not missing much and I would not recommend concerning yourself with a sub unless you feel what you have is not getting the job done.

To get the full benefits of a sub, you need good bass management, to get good bass management, you will need a receiver designed with a crossover to unload the low frequencies from your speakers, to use that, you need to have a TV connected, etc.

 

[KEW]

That kind of reliability is hard to argue with.
If it works it works.

 

[MrBoat]

Assuming you are talking a Kick Drum... 50Hz!
Quite honestly, with a 12" woofer and at 35Hz to 20kHz, +/-3dB, I would not get too excited about a sub. Your speakers were designed as full range music speakers before subs became a common part of the equation.
But be your own judge, here are some frequencies of various instruments:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

This is an interactive chart, so drag the cursor over any area of interest.

Aside from pipe organ and modern electronica (which are not addressed on this chart), you are not missing much and I would not recommend concerning yourself with a sub unless you feel what you have is not getting the job done.

To get the full benefits of a sub, you need good bass management, to get good bass management, you will need a receiver designed with a crossover to unload the low frequencies from your speakers, to use that, you need to have a TV connected, etc.

That's pretty much where I am at with this system. I know I can do better, but as has been suggested, I am kind of to the point where I need to address my living space because this thing I have now is overkill. Either way, I am kind of hooked into this as a new hobby and hoping I can break some new ground. I still don't trust the sheer amount of brand names that are out now. It feels generic to me and because of what happened in the 80's, I wonder how much of that is still being exploited.

TY for the replies. It helps.

 

[MrBoat]

I am reading reviews about the Denon I previously mentioned. The AVR 3802. It has a lot of good reviews and the price is right for 75 dollars and with 5 speakers. He and his wife started having a family about 10 years ago and it's been in a closet since they got the house they are at now. He has another theater system in his living room that they use and says he may have watched it a dozen times so it isn't like he is much into this stuff anymore.

 

[KEW]

I still don't trust the sheer amount of brand names that are out now. It feels generic to me and because of what happened in the 80's, I wonder how much of that is still being exploited.

TY for the replies. It helps.

Good for you. There are definitely some sketchy products out there (Pyle comes to mind)!

You also can't trust reviews (though you can generally trust lab test results). Magazines earn their living by advertisements and a writer (who is actually making a living) is generally not too quick to bite the hand that feeds!

Let us know if/when you decide what you want and we'll direct you to gear that has proven itself to be a good value.

 

[MrBoat]

Good for you. There are definitely some sketchy products out there (Pyle comes to mind)!

You also can't trust reviews (though you can generally trust lab test results). Magazines earn their living by advertisements and a writer (who is actually making a living) is generally not too quick to bite the hand that feeds!

Let us know if/when you decide what you want and we'll direct you to gear that has proven itself to be a good value.

I appreciate that and I agree about reviewers. Half of what amounts to my skepticism.

 

[KEW]

That kind of reliability is hard to argue with.
If it works it works.

 

[MrBoat]

Does anyone go through this for just the music aspect, or is it predominately home theater?

If someone were to build an audio only, directed at all around music quality, where would they start? I'm 54 yrs old and have never been interested in television or movies much and I don't expect that to change. I'm outdoors more than in. When I come in for the night is when I listen to music and sometimes all night. I can't see me spending 2-3 grand on an amp, especially if I don't need 'all' of the connectivity. I don't really need a turntable. After honestly thinking about it, I don't truly believe it's better than digital. One would have to do a constant side-by-side battle with themselves to prove it, only to arrive at a trivial preference at best.

What are some good solid names in Audio that have been consistent for the last 20 years? Or, what was good 10-20 years ago and then who took the spotlight the last 10 years perhaps? I mentioned Denon. Is that a hit or miss? I see it mentioned a lot. On speakers I see the name "Dual" mentioned. My last experience with dual was with car audio, and I used to see their products in what amounted to the J.C. Whitney equivalent of car audio catalogs back then with a lot of wild claims based on 'peak' wattage ratings in the hundreds or thousands. I put an Alpine car stereo in for a friend of mine who listened to the same music I did. A younger neighbor of his, who liked Dual, talked him into bridging the amp I installed for more "bump." So he slaps a giant Dual sub in the back and that is all you could hear was bump.

In the case of car audio, you don't hear clean jazz pumping out of cars at red lights or driving down the streets. All you hear is bass and rap and some horrible growling and distorted, angry vocals. How much of audio these days is based on that? Are those people still considered audiophiles?

 

[Swerd]

I'm entering this thread very late. Nonetheless, welcome MrBoat to Audioholics. Your thoughts & observations are more than welcome here.

I'd also like to say, that the advice offered here by others, mainly AH regulars, has been generally excellent. Nice going.

 

[shadyJ]

Does anyone go through this for just the music aspect, or is it predominately home theater?

If someone were to build an audio only, directed at all around music quality, where would they start? I'm 54 yrs old and have never been interested in television or movies much and I don't expect that to change. I'm outdoors more than in. When I come in for the night is when I listen to music and sometimes all night. I can't see me spending 2-3 grand on an amp, especially if I don't need 'all' of the connectivity. I don't really need a turntable. After honestly thinking about it, I don't truly believe it's better than digital. One would have to do a constant side-by-side battle with themselves to prove it, only to arrive at a trivial preference at best.

What are some good solid names in Audio that have been consistent for the last 20 years? Or, what was good 10-20 years ago and then who took the spotlight the last 10 years perhaps? I mentioned Denon. Is that a hit or miss? I see it mentioned a lot. On speakers I see the name "Dual" mentioned. My last experience with dual was with car audio, and I used to see their products in what amounted to the J.C. Whitney equivalent of car audio catalogs back then with a lot of wild claims based on 'peak' wattage ratings in the hundreds or thousands. I put an Alpine car stereo in for a friend of mine who listened to the same music I did. A younger neighbor of his, who liked Dual, talked him into bridging the amp I installed for more "bump." So he slaps a giant Dual sub in the back and that is all you could hear was bump.

In the case of car audio, you don't hear clean jazz pumping out of cars at red lights or driving down the streets. All you hear is bass and rap and some horrible growling and distorted, angry vocals. How much of audio these days is based on that? Are those people still considered audiophiles?

In this forum, for many people it is a mix of music and film and television, as it is for me. Many of my favorite movies are due to the score, so for me music and film are not really separate.

I don't know what a Dual is, btw, and it certainly isn't an audiophile brand. Some solid names in Audio for 20 years, a lot of companies have had their ups and downs, so that is hard to say. One company is, I would say, Infinity, who have had reliably good products from beginning to end.

 

[ski2xblack]

Does anyone go through this for just the music aspect, or is it predominately home theater?

Fortunately, the fundamentals of sound reproduction are the same, whether the source is a movie or music. Speakers can't differentiate between dialog, special effects, or Miles blowing the soul out of his horn. A well sorted system will excel at both.

If someone were to build an audio only, directed at all around music quality, where would they start?

-Good quality speakers, chosen with careful consideration of how they will be implemented (e.g. speaker sensitivity and power handling limits relative to your tastes for spl, the distances involved, the intended coverage area...; the character of local acoustics and how your chosen speakers interact with it...). All of that is thoroughly covered in Toole's book, which is why I highly recommend it to newbs. Speakers are by far the most important choice in putting together a system.
-source material that exhibits excellent production quality

The rest is rather easy, either directly dependent on previous choices (amplification requirements for chosen speakers), or on other considerations specific to your use (multichannel, phono input, bass management if you're using subs, etc.) Pragmatism is appropriate for all of these choices, and a little extravagance on the speaker budget (which includes subs) is perfectly justified.

There are a lot of "blind-consumerism traps" in audio. Don't be a blind consumer, as that's not in service to the music. What's the old audiophile adage, "I spent all this money only to realize I didn't need to spend all that money to get good sound" or something to that effect. Some knowledge and understanding will help you avoid wasteful mistakes.

In the meantime, continue enjoying the old JBLs. You would have to spend quite a bit to get any appreciable improvement in dynamics and extension than they're currently delivering. I'm a sucker for wide dynamic range myself, and for that, there's no replacement for displacement. Big ol' monkey coffins may be out of style, but they can wrestle with Hoffman's Iron Law a bit more effectively, achieving extension and sensitivity that puny speakers can only dream of. They're fun.

 

[MrBoat]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. You have been very cooperative and I study all the replies. I realize there is a lot of threads centered around these concerns but I did not want to resurrect multiples to get specific questions answered. Also, this thread serves as an introduction of sorts as well and everything you folks are saying does make believable sense. I'm likely in this for the long haul.

Also have been digging into the forum reviews so, I am getting a feel on topics such as budgets/expectations etc.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm entering this thread very late. Nonetheless, welcome MrBoat to Audioholics. Your thoughts & observations are more than welcome here.

I'd also like to say, that the advice offered here by others, mainly AH regulars, has been generally excellent. Nice going.

Thank you for the welcome.

 

[KEW]

Does anyone go through this for just the music aspect, or is it predominately home theater?

I'm not sure what "this" is! We have lots of people here who are primarily audio. At this point, I consider myself 90% audio/10% HT. 7 years ago I came here like you looking exclusively for audio advice and my 10% Home Theater is primarily a by-product of that.

If someone were to build an audio only, directed at all around music quality, where would they start? I'm 54 yrs old and have never been interested in television or movies much and I don't expect that to change. I'm outdoors more than in. When I come in for the night is when I listen to music and sometimes all night. I can't see me spending 2-3 grand on an amp, especially if I don't need 'all' of the connectivity. I don't really need a turntable. After honestly thinking about it, I don't truly believe it's better than digital. One would have to do a constant side-by-side battle with themselves to prove it, only to arrive at a trivial preference at best.

The only valid argument that I can make for Vinyl (I have a nice Thorens TT that sits in my basement - not used) is that if the recording engineer is making a separate mix, he is likely to recognize the intended market as audiophiles sitting at home; as opposed to the standard mix that is likely to be played over earbuds or in car, etc. Thus he could allow a wider dynamic range for the vinyl version and compress the other mix so it doesn't get too quiet or too loud (which is not good in your car or walking down the street with earbuds). However, it is not like this is a universal rule. I have seen posts which indicate which version is better, CD or Vinyl, and there is not a consistent trend (most often, it is probably the same mix).
I can also appreciate someone enjoying the process of picking out the LP sliding it out of the jacket and sleeve, putting it on the table and deftly setting the needle down, all the while, the ears are resting in comparative silence while anticipating listening to the music about to be played. Psychologically, we should not ignore those influences. But personally, I'm just not keen enough on that to make room for my old albums and turntable and 95% of the time I don't want to run out of music until I get back to the task of getting out a new album. I really don't listen to music to listen to music. I have music in the background for my life and every now and then as I pass by, the sheer excellence of a passage will grab my attention and THEN I will devote several minutes solely to music.

What are some good solid names in Audio that have been consistent for the last 20 years? Or, what was good 10-20 years ago and then who took the spotlight the last 10 years perhaps? I mentioned Denon. Is that a hit or miss? I see it mentioned a lot. On speakers I see the name "Dual" mentioned. My last experience with dual was with car audio, and I used to see their products in what amounted to the J.C. Whitney equivalent of car audio catalogs back then with a lot of wild claims based on 'peak' wattage ratings in the hundreds or thousands. I put an Alpine car stereo in for a friend of mine who listened to the same music I did. A younger neighbor of his, who liked Dual, talked him into bridging the amp I installed for more "bump." So he slaps a giant Dual sub in the back and that is all you could hear was bump.

Denon, Marantz, Yamaha are great standard bearers for receivers. Onkyo has lost favor due to some reliability issues that were not addressed very quickly. Pioneer still make some very nice units, but they just don't really seem to be that aggressive about staying in the mainstream audio market. There are new brands, some are boutique brands with very high prices and low volume sales. However, they work hard at building a mystique around their product (which you may guess is because there is nothing in the way of lab certifiable improvements to be shown).

In the case of car audio, you don't hear clean jazz pumping out of cars at red lights or driving down the streets. All you hear is bass and rap and some horrible growling and distorted, angry vocals. How much of audio these days is based on that? Are those people still considered audiophiles?

I don't know if they ever were. I always looked at the car thing as being more about grabbing peoples attention (though I do know some people who installed very high quality and well balanced systems in their cars).
With the development of dedicated subwoofers, there is the option of generating insane levels of low frequency energy. I find that I enjoy feeling the floor vibrate under me when a dinosaur stomps by. However, if I don't change the settings on my sub when switching to music it sucks (fortunately, the AVR changes it for me).

 

[MrBoat]

In this forum, for many people it is a mix of music and film and television, as it is for me. Many of my favorite movies are due to the score, so for me music and film are not really separate.

I don't know what a Dual is, btw, and it certainly isn't an audiophile brand. Some solid names in Audio for 20 years, a lot of companies have had their ups and downs, so that is hard to say. One company is, I would say, Infinity, who have had reliably good products from beginning to end.

That is good to know, thank you. I recall infinity being a good brand. As far as my movie comment, I just didn't want to buy speakers that blanket everything at the expense of a quality I am after. That was part of the issue of the 80's speakers trying to fit all genres of music to where many of them did everything 'generally' well. I suppose the tech has evolved enough where one can choose more accurately now. Either way, that will likely be the questions I ask with some specifics input on my part with what to expect.

 

[MrBoat]

Fortunately, the fundamentals of sound reproduction are the same, whether the source is a movie or music. Speakers can't differentiate between dialog, special effects, or Miles blowing the soul out of his horn. A well sorted system will excel at both.


-Good quality speakers, chosen with careful consideration of how they will be implemented (e.g. speaker sensitivity and power handling limits relative to your tastes for spl, the distances involved, the intended coverage area...; the character of local acoustics and how your chosen speakers interact with it...). All of that is thoroughly covered in Toole's book, which is why I highly recommend it to newbs. Speakers are by far the most important choice in putting together a system.
-source material that exhibits excellent production quality

The rest is rather easy, either directly dependent on previous choices (amplification requirements for chosen speakers), or on other considerations specific to your use (multichannel, phono input, bass management if you're using subs, etc.) Pragmatism is appropriate for all of these choices, and a little extravagance on the speaker budget (which includes subs) is perfectly justified.

There are a lot of "blind-consumerism traps" in audio. Don't be a blind consumer, as that's not in service to the music. What's the old audiophile adage, "I spent all this money only to realize I didn't need to spend all that money to get good sound" or something to that effect. Some knowledge and understanding will help you avoid wasteful mistakes.

In the meantime, continue enjoying the old JBLs. You would have to spend quite a bit to get any appreciable improvement in dynamics and extension than they're currently delivering. I'm a sucker for wide dynamic range myself, and for that, there's no replacement for displacement. Big ol' monkey coffins may be out of style, but they can wrestle with Hoffman's Iron Law a bit more effectively, achieving extension and sensitivity that puny speakers can only dream of. They're fun.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

I am actually enjoying these JBL speakers a lot. They have been on, more than off, since I got them. It is good to know that some still appreciate the big block V-8's. I am probably already close to getting my 75 bucks worth out of them by this point.

Consumerism traps. . .that's an issue. So is internet hype with all products these days. I bought a set of logitech computer speakers on hype, something I rarely do and they were indeed overstated. They sound 'ok' but nothing like what the user reviews said.

At this point I would not mind having this system and yet another, more modern one to play with and see where it leads me. By "modern," I mean from say Y2k on and I am not adversed to buying used stuff if it is good. I know how to rebuild speakers and my boss is a 30 year electronics engineer with Lockheed, for any minor circuitry concerns I may find.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm not sure what "this" is! We have lots of people here who are primarily audio. At this point, I consider myself 90% audio/10% HT. 7 years ago I came here like you looking exclusively for audio advice and my 10% Home Theater is primarily a by-product of that.


The only valid argument that I can make for Vinyl (I have a nice Thorens TT that sits in my basement - not used) is that if the recording engineer is making a separate mix, he is likely to recognize the intended market as audiophiles sitting at home; as opposed to the standard mix that is likely to be played over earbuds or in car, etc. Thus he could allow a wider dynamic range for the vinyl version and compress the other mix so it doesn't get too quiet or too loud (which is not good in your car or walking down the street with earbuds). However, it is not like this is a universal rule. I have seen posts which indicate which version is better, CD or Vinyl, and there is not a consistent trend (most often, it is probably the same mix).
I can also appreciate someone enjoying the process of picking out the LP sliding it out of the jacket and sleeve, putting it on the table and deftly setting the needle down, all the while, the ears are resting in comparative silence while anticipating listening to the music about to be played. Psychologically, we should not ignore those influences. But personally, I'm just not keen enough on that to make room for my old albums and turntable and 95% of the time I don't want to run out of music until I get back to the task of getting out a new album. I really don't listen to music to listen to music. I have music in the background for my life and every now and then as I pass by, the sheer excellence of a passage will grab my attention and THEN I will devote several minutes solely to music.


Denon, Marantz, Yamaha are great standard bearers for receivers. Onkyo has lost favor due to some reliability issues that were not addressed very quickly. Pioneer still make some very nice units, but they just don't really seem to be that aggressive about staying in the mainstream audio market. There are new brands, some are boutique brands with very high prices and low volume sales. However, they work hard at building a mystique around their product (which you may guess is because there is nothing in the way of lab certifiable improvements to be shown).



I don't know if they ever were. I always looked at the car thing as being more about grabbing peoples attention (though I do know some people who installed very high quality and well balanced systems in their cars).
With the development of dedicated subwoofers, there is the option of generating insane levels of low frequency energy. I find that I enjoy feeling the floor vibrate under me when a dinosaur stomps by. However, if I don't change the settings on my sub when switching to music it sucks (fortunately, the AVR changes it for me).

That's pretty much what confirmations I am looking for and to somewhat get a grasp of what a modern audiophiles varied interests appear as, so that I may direct my questions or concerns more efficiently and hopefully not rubbing other people with different interests the wrong way. For the time being, I'll be doing good to get around the language of this hobby.

ETA: Many of the car people consider themselves audiophiles even if all they listen to is bass music just for spending thousands on gear. Some will even be downright critical with my car audio choices because it's not a bass factory. That is much of the influence when you go to buy car audio equipment because much of it is those young guys working there. They think it's so great that everyone's system should be designed accordingly.