New user with some questions

[MrBoat]

From some quick research, it seems that neither the amp nor the speakers are considered "junk" so if you're digging the sound, the thing that stands out to me is your description of your room, which is going to have reflections all over the place. The best thing you could do is put some rugs and drapes around to start. The fact that you describe hearing the speakers from inside your bathroom tells me you really need to try to deaden that room a little bit at least.

That's what brought me here. Not knowing what I had or if the human ear has evolved beyond my old school capacity. If nothing else, to broaden my horizons in that regard. Just didn't want to try it with all out crap, or get shot down for having greatly stopped living musically in a period when according to a lot of 'purists', was the industry's worst. It's increasingly harder to get honest opinions these days in a world of the internet, to where one may soon get the idea that pedigrees are revolving around the deepest pockets.

 

[ski2xblack]

You can almost hear the moment of separation and closing of the high hats to know that's what they are, Jeff Beck's and Mark Knopfler's effect on the strings with their unique pick-less style of playing, etc. The little subtle honks between notes some use when playing the sax and even when they take a breath at times, even in spite of the bass presence. That can't be too bad.

Sounds like they're balanced and resolving speakers. Like I said, and perhaps I should have used the sarcasm font as it was meant to be an understatement, I think you did alright. For $75 and lots of musical grins, consider this an internet high five for your score!

You would get a lot out of Toole's work. There are several articles here that he's authored or contributed to, and his book of course. Highly recommended reading.

 

[MrBoat]

Bass management is the management of the bass frequencies, not a tone or eq control, but rather a way to determine what frequencies are handled by the speakers vs subs; i.e. a crossover, an implementation of a high pass filter for your speakers in combination with a low pass filter for your subs. Dual voice coils in a sub's driver is for different wiring schemes for the impedance/amp combo desired.

Weight has a lot to do with the amp classification (A, A/B, D, etc) and whether active or passive cooling is involved.

Stand alone old style graphic equalizers like you have have been pretty much pushed to the side by more modern parametric eq's. Software works to an extent (jriver comes to mind) or you can use a stand alone unit like a miniDSP 2x4.

Now I know what to research. This helps. I can understand the EQ bit, because a true audiophile would likely be slave to such things for each and every song, or even portions of it. I recall going thru that on some cuts, like a certain part of Steve Vai's "Blue Powder," or parts of Eddie Van Halens riffs, or the best talent included on some older funk/jazz tunes.

 

[MrBoat]

Sounds like they're balanced and resolving speakers. Like I said, and perhaps I should have used the sarcasm font as it was meant to be an understatement, I think you did alright. For $75 and lots of musical grins, consider this an internet high five for your score!

You would get a lot out of Toole's work. There are several articles here that he's authored or contributed to, and his book of course. Highly recommended reading.

I will look into that. I'm also here because there are not a lot of people to talk to about hi-fi in a normal day. All I hear about now is bass and more bass. Like that sheet metal rattling kind you hear in cars a lot.

 

[lovinthehd]

where one may soon get the idea that pedigrees are revolving around the deepest pockets.

In audio its how deep your pockets are as to the pedigree of those who seek to delve into them....

Have you run across some of the ridiculous stuff going on with speaker cables and various specific types of interconnect? Insanity in many cases. Here's a nice informative look at it http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[lovinthehd]

Now I know what to research. This helps. I can understand the EQ bit, because a true audiophile would likely be slave to such things for each and every song, or even portions of it. I recall going thru that on some cuts, like a certain part of Steve Vai's "Blue Powder," or parts of Eddie Van Halens riffs, or the best talent included on some older funk/jazz tunes.

Actually you'll find a fair number of folks who go for the "straight wire" approach, some gear even to the point of leaving out tone controls altogether. Not my preference, I like having eq tools.

What I'd suggest is obtaining a measurement mic like a miniDSP Umik-1 or a Dayton UMM-6 and use it with some software like Room EQ Wizard (aka REW) and use that to know what your baseline is before any eq you're going to apply (and can even be used to implement specific equalization with that miniDSP 2x4 I linked).

 

[MrBoat]

In audio its how deep your pockets are as to the pedigree of those who seek to delve into them....

Have you run across some of the ridiculous stuff going on with speaker cables and various specific types of interconnect? Insanity in many cases. Here's a nice informative look at it http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Cables, I never really fell for outside of ohm's law (I went to electronics school at an early age and have done quite a bit of electrical work, and have been a welder for the last 25 years and a 10 year stint with electric motor rebuilding) considerations and basic electrical principals. Especially when you see a unit that has been designed with spring loaded pinch connectors being the weakest link in that regard.

 

[MrBoat]

Actually you'll find a fair number of folks who go for the "straight wire" approach, some gear even to the point of leaving out tone controls altogether. Not my preference, I like having eq tools.

What I'd suggest is obtaining a measurement mic like a miniDSP Umik-1 or a Dayton UMM-6 and use it with some software like Room EQ Wizard (aka REW) and use that to know what your baseline is before any eq you're going to apply (and can even be used to implement specific equalization with that miniDSP 2x4 I linked).

All I remember about my EQ was just having it turned on seemed to enhance the overall sound even if it was set to flat, and then working it from there. I don't remember the technical reason for that now. You could notice it when switching it on.

 

[MrBoat]

In audio its how deep your pockets are as to the pedigree of those who seek to delve into them....

Have you run across some of the ridiculous stuff going on with speaker cables and various specific types of interconnect? Insanity in many cases. Here's a nice informative look at it http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

RE: the deep pockets comment. This is what I want to avoid. I want to re-approach this with some common sense and logic outside of the hype of what makes things cost more than they're actually worth. I don't mind paying someone for their skills if they are custom building something for me, but for something that is mass produced for pennies on the dollar, not so much.

 

[lovinthehd]

RE: the deep pockets comment. This is what I want to avoid. I want to re-approach this with some common sense and logic outside of the hype of what makes things cost more than they're actually worth. I don't mind paying someone for their skills if they are custom building something for me, but for something that is mass produced for pennies on the dollar, not so much.

Plenty of good audio to be had without going "high end".

 

[MrBoat]

Weight isn't much of an indicator of quality IMO. I'll put my 8.6 lb 300W/ch (8ohm stereo) amps up against "heavier" competition any time.

Speakers and your room are the biggest factors in chasing difference in sound qualities, electronics very little by comparison. I've used, and use, a variety of amplification but don't ascribe to the finer points of "amp listening"; I currently have three avrs and four power amps in use, plus two power amps waiting on repairs, and find it is fairly generic, particularly compared to changing speakers and/or rooms.

If I were you I'd think about adding a sub/bass management capabilities, that's what I found to be a better way to go than chasing amplification differences. While your speakers may have decent sized bass drivers, subs will still improve on them.

Your JBL speakers I haven't heard nor find much about, I recently changed to some newer JBLS I like a lot (JBL S590 with 530s and a 520) but I really doubt a change in amp would significantly change the way they sound (and can be a pain to properly compare) but I suppose your current amp could have declined in performance with age....

Ok. Clearly I misunderstood the modern interpretations presented here of "Bass Management." The need for which, seems as if it is pretty much unanimous across the audiophilic world. Even with some older looking folks than myself, and not just for theater considerations. My speakers range from 35-20khz (±3dB). Oddly enough, and after listening to Tom Petty's "Here Comes My Girl" I can almost imagine a void being filled by such a treatment, which took me over to the subwoofer discussion area. Saw some budget offerings that got a lot of good reviews for an inexpensive starting point at least, and further yet looking into DIY since "building things" is kind of my life anyway. Then dismissed the DIY for now.

But, at least the information you and that other fellow that mentioned subs earlier in this thread piqued my interest on the subject and may be actually the best transition from my old ways to current with advances in sound quality without going crazy with it right off the bat and it may actually even do this antiquated hardware some justice.

 

[herbu]

Can you tell us a little more about your source? iTunes? Pandora? I'm not qualified to guide you on this, but "source", "speakers" and "room treatment", were mentioned as the top 3, and the only thing I've seen you mention about your source is "computer".

Do you use a lossless format? Once you tell us what you use, and what sound card you have in your computer, others here can provide some expert advice on improving your source. Though I can't help you with it, I can attest to the importance of a good source.

 

[MrBoat]

Can you tell us a little more about your source? iTunes? Pandora? I'm not qualified to guide you on this, but "source", "speakers" and "room treatment", were mentioned as the top 3, and the only thing I've seen you mention about your source is "computer".

Do you use a lossless format? Once you tell us what you use, and what sound card you have in your computer, others here can provide some expert advice on improving your source. Though I can't help you with it, I can attest to the importance of a good source.

To be honest, I had seen the "lossless" bit mentioned when I was looking up to see if I could hook my pc up to an older stereo, or whether I really needed a DAC. Then I read that most sound cards have it built in so I just bought the Y cable figuring to start there and it worked. At that point, it was worlds better than my desktop speakers so I looked no further. I just started on this recent audio adventure a week ago.

Typically I use the CD player and Pandora (Pithos in Linux) and some U-tube. I also have boxes of old vinyl and a few turntables knocking around here but I think the cartridges were spent when I retired them when CD players became affordable right about the same time. Figured to possibly re-explore that at some point.

My sound card is the intel HD audio card that came with this Dell PC back in 2006. I should also note that for some reason, computers last me forever. I've never killed one. Linux manages to keep them viable longer for what I use them for, well after they are obsolete. I did add another 2G of RAM to it about 6 mos ago.

It doesn't matter how "qualified" you are. Those are good questions that I need to explore further and it helps to remind me of how little I actually know.

 

[MrBoat]

After listening to the good advice I received on this thread, I started reading around this forum and elsewhere. Some things I had not considered. For one, how I used to listen to my old 100w system back in the day. Space was limited back then and furnishings were sparse. Plus, that EQ I mentioned. I used to sit where I could work that and my system was always set up to where this put me right between the two speakers. They would be perhaps 10-12' apart and pointed right about where I would sit. This is how I used to enjoy listening to it. I can see why this is perhaps optimum for 2 channel, left ear, right ear listening.

The other things that was mentioned here was the quality of the source material and the lack of mechanical EQs these days. I had not played CD's on this Linux machine with anything than the default player. I discovered another on this system named "Audacious." It has a 10 band EQ function with a preamp effect as well. Huge difference. Although, I don't have to adjust it all the time. I may set it once for each album, or, for that genre of music at least. At least I found out that the amp and the speakers are actually capable for at least a pretty solid entry to mid level experience.

Another friend had seen my FB musings with this venture and says he will sell me his (he says it's kind of ancient) Denon AVR 3802 system for about what I paid for the speakers and he will include some of the old speakers with it if I am interested, which is 75 bucks. But then, I don't remember him being that big on audio, at least with music. Last thing I remember about Denon was some odd looking turntables with platter matter, or something like that. I really have no interest in video or the effects while watching a movie, so many of the options with this system might be overkill for my needs but if it functions like a regular stereo, I could set it up in my shop, if nothing else.

I'm still poking around this forum, found some pretty good reviews on some of the budget subs on the parts site I see mentioned here often. There is really a lot to digest with this hobby. Some of which has brought on some attention deficit disorder with the details at times.

One question I have is, and I did research some but, does an active sub have to be equal to, or larger than the bass drivers in your mains? That starts getting me into the 12-15" range. My main speakers are ported. Should the sub be ported as well, or would a sealed unit be a good contrast considering that my listening space is not that big?

 

[lovinthehd]

One question I have is, and I did research some but, does an active sub have to be equal to, or larger than the bass drivers in your mains? That starts getting me into the 12-15" range. My main speakers are ported. Should the sub be ported as well, or would a sealed unit be a good contrast considering that my listening space is not that big?

Larger is generally the better way to go with a sub driver, but would depend on the sub design itself rather than just measuring the driver's approximate diameter. Ported vs sealed sub is more about the room you'll use it in and what sort of cabin gain/extension you're looking for; for a smaller space a sealed sub can work very well. The sub need not be ported just because your speaker cabinets were....

 

[zieglj01]

Here's the JBL's in question. Maybe seeing the layout of the cabinets, ports etc may help without ppl having to look them up. The room averages 20x12 with 7'6" ceiling height. Essentially, the room IS a speaker. You really don't get any diminishing of sound from one end to the other. In some areas, like the adjacent hallway, the sound seems to actually be amplified more. Even in the bathroom around the corner you don't really notice any drop in sound or bass for that matter. Probably because of the concrete floors. The only dampening really, is the drywall.

You got some nice speakers - they were a popular series, and were considered to be some good all around speakers. For sure $75 was a no brainer.

 

[MrBoat]

Larger is generally the better way to go with a sub driver, but would depend on the sub design itself rather than just measuring the driver's approximate diameter. Ported vs sealed sub is more about the room you'll use it in and what sort of cabin gain/extension you're looking for; for a smaller space a sealed sub can work very well. The sub need not be ported just because your speaker cabinets were....

That's what I thought after reading up on it but could not really get a specific answer. I'm not huge on bass beyond say, what a bass drum actually sounds like live. I'm not after rolling thunder or explosions from a storm or war scene from a movie. More like that bump-bump-bump when you hear a drummer gearing up before the start of a set, if that makes any sense. The bass from the strings section I have already with the speakers I have.

I guess what I am hoping (or guessing really) in a nutshell is, overall, is that the sub's crossover takes some of the clutter out of the main speakers woofers. I read a lot so I may be getting this confused without revisiting the specifics again. But in the case of a song like Toto's "Rosanna," they have some really clean percussion, and some deep bass guitar and the two almost collide at certain frequencies. It's not bothersome really, I likely never would have noticed it if it had not been pointed out to me that improvements have been made since I was into this years ago or that I should consider a sub as such.

 

[MrBoat]

You got some nice speakers - they were a popular series, and were considered to be some good all around speakers. For sure $75 was a no brainer.

I was happy to get them. It made it possible for me to get back into this on a budget.

 

[MrBoat]

I forgot I have to consider the limitations of my old amp as far as employing any crossover help. I don't have a dedicated sub output so they would have to come from the speaker outputs which means I would probably need two subs? Or is it possible to line-in to the sub before the amp?

It's getting to the point where this 'free' amp that doesn't owe me anything is about as good as what some of the initial responses said with "enjoy it for what it's worth if it works." Last week, I could have afforded budget subs. This week I could have afforded better ones for not running out and buying last week. In 3 months, with a little patience, I could likely afford to start over with about the same expenditure when it's all said and done without having turned a sow's ear into a silk purse or ending up with a room full of 'extras' that I won't use.

Either way, the sub is about as far as I am willing to go with this old system before I start getting ridiculous with it. It would irk me if I could do better with newer stuff for a couple grand over a year's time instead of 500 on this one in a couple months.

 

[lovinthehd]

Some subs have speaker level (aka high level) inputs as well as outputs (both L & R). Some subs have both a low pass filter for the sub as well as a high pass filter for your speakers for crossover purposes (but many just have the low pass filter for your sub and nothing for your speakers).