New receiver or new power amp?

[PENG]

I was actually able to turn my volume down 10 notches to -40 & have greater clarity. There are no mind tricks involved.

This is very interesting! I don't know anything about the 3802 but I do have my 3805 hooked up to a 200WX2 amp.

When I first hooked up the amp, I calibrated the 3805 with the test tones and SPL meter and I did not notice any difference in "loudness".

As I posted before, I measured the voltage and current outputs with a true r.m.s. meter using the same tracks of a couple of Telarc CDs including the 1812 and Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s, mainly for the bass drum hits. With no noticeable/objectionable distortion, the current readings in r.m.s. were virtually the same for the 3805, 3805+the 200W amp, with SPL in the 90's and the volume up to "0". I have since done more tests such as measuring the peaks and push the SPL into the high 90's peaking over 100 dB, with similar results. I also tried the 3805 with a 350WX2 amp to see if it would push more currents into my power hungry Veritas. Well it didn't, the readings were still within a few % points among all 3 configurations. My 3910 univeral player was set to pure direct mode for all the tests. The subwoofer was not used at all.

I am sure you heard better sound with the powerful amps that you have, I just find it interesting that with the external amp you could turn the volume down 10 "notches". Also, in my calibrated system, I have to crank the 3805 to at least -20 for any serious listening to two channel music.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

When I upgraded my Sony STRDE 925 to a Denon 3805, I went from 110x5 to 120x7 (not a big difference as far as rms goes). There was a large difference in three other elements though. One was the thd ratings - much lower in the Denon. Second was the weight of the unit - the Denon weighed about twice as much. Third - the power supply and heat sink in the Denon was much larger and robust (thus the increased weight).

At moderate volumes, my Sony was OK but the midrange struggled - especially the center channel. I blame this on the preamp section of the Sony moreso than the amplifier section. At reference levels, the Sony would overheat and shut down. It would get too hot to the touch, and need a cooling off period. The Denon brought to the table a much more robust midrange, and rarely gets warm when driven hard. It will struggle at extremely high volumes, but its too loud for most to tolerate for more than a few minutes.

The biggest difference I found between the two units was, as I mentioned before - the sound floor. A better unit for some reason never seems to get loud - it only accentuates the peaks. What I look for it the ability to play those peaks with authority, and between the peaks - silence (some call it dynamic range).

 

[RickT]

BS. Plain and simple. One amp producing *db (unclipped) compared to another amp producing *db (unclipped) connected to the same speakers will be the same.

Someone said the detail that I speak of will be at high levels. This is correct. Well above what my wife, friends, mother, and etc, can handle. I am the only one in my family who gets the music that loud. Otherwise, there is no difference. And, let me be clear, it's not louder than it was before the amp was added.

Interesting that after saying BS you contradict yourself in the next paragraph ...

How loud it is, is a function of how far up you have the volume control. The difference between two otherwise similar amps with two different levels of power is that with the one with the higher available power level one could reasonably expect to able to turn the volume up higher with less chance of distortion ( clipping ). Whether or not one chooses to turn the volume up louder has nothing to do with it.

 

[Nick250]

True, but even with a mid fi receiver, say a 3806, I suspect hearing damage (or at least painfully loud) kicks in sooner than clipping in most cases. That's true for my system.

Nick

 

[RickT]

With the dynamic range in todays CD's, SACD's & DVD's it's easier to get there then you think ... even if only for moments at a time ...

 

[Nuglets]

With the dynamic range in todays CD's, SACD's & DVD's it's easier to get there then you think ... even if only for moments at a time ...

I thought that the dynamic range on CD's has gotten worse as of late. Don't most LP's have more dynamic range than many cd's? I don't know about SACD and DVD but for some reason I thought I remembered reading somewhere about CD's lacking in dynamic range...Is this true?

 

[wire]

The thing that always sticks in my craw about these amp vs reciever threads is how many people refuse to accept that higher wattage generaly does good things for the system but instead try to focus on other areas,you could treat your listening room till the cows come home with accoustic panels,bass traps & what not but if the system is underpowered it will not rock,ever,period,no way jose,its not going to happen.

At this point in this thread clipping is not an issue,a reciever or amp does not need to go into full clip for it to run out of gas & what happens when it runs out of gas is that it dont have the reserve power or headroom to cover all the dynamic swings in the music,loss of dynamics or impact is instantly translated as loss of overall volume.

As i have posted in other threads i have seen & measured dynamic swings while listening with 500 watts continuous where the swing was close to 5,000 watts peak,that 10 times the wattage needed to accurately reproduce these peaks, this is where having extra wattage on hand makes all the difference, without reserve wattage impact will be lost.

I totally agree
There was a post on intregrated amps somewhere awhile ago .
The poster was looking at NAD , H/K and i think a yammy .
The headroom in NAD is much greater than any of them . The H/K years ago was also good . But the NAD is definitly not a entry level amp , it will do the job ( thats why musically it will sound better than the mass produced 5.1 to 7.1 recievers ) .

 

[zumbo]

Interesting that after saying BS you contradict yourself in the next paragraph ...

I said BS to your statement. Notice the words lower levels.

Presactly ... Even at lower levels any decent amp will be superior to a receiver for a variety of reasons ...

My "next paragraph" used the words high levels. I also said not louder.

Someone said the detail that I speak of will be at high levels. This is correct. Well above what my wife, friends, mother, and etc, can handle. I am the only one in my family who gets the music that loud. Otherwise, there is no difference. And, let me be clear, it's not louder than it was before the amp was added.

If you need further explanation, let me know.

 

[zumbo]

Hi zumbo,long time no see so to speak.

What you wrote is true but only to a point,depending an the actual duration of the peak the time that the extra wattage is needed may not be enough for the amp to clip even though it couldnt produce the necessary wattage.

Also most if not all protection circuts are based on distortion values not wattage being produced,im going by the 50 watt continuous figure,driving an amp that is rated at 100 watts continuous with a 50 watt demand is not pushing it very hard & not likely to raise distortion levels enough for a protection circut to kick in but the amp will not be able to produce a 200 watt spontanious burst & being that the demand time for that 200 watts was so short the protection circut wont kick in ,this is where i find music looses its slam.

have a great holiday

OK!

 

[zumbo]

What Buckeyefan 1 stated in post #42 is true for me as well. I went from an Onkyo pro-logic, to a Yamaha 5.1. There was about a 35WPC increase, along with the newer technology. There was a huge difference in everything.

But, seeing as how the current receiver in use is current , I doubt there would be much difference if the choice was a new receiver of another brand with just a little more power.

 

[cfrizz]

Hi Peng. I do have my system calibrated to reference levels. I would say the difference is, my speakers are easy to drive 89.5dB, & recommended amplifier power is 30-250wpc. I started out with a 50 wpc Rotel amp, then went to the Denon, & now back to much more powerful separate amps.

I'm not into really measuring everything & studying specs. I simply trust my ears, and my ears noticed that my speakers sound MUCH better being fed 200wpc or more! Since they are rated for a max of 250wpc, I doubt that they will draw more than the 250 except at short intervals when called for. So that is why I wouldn't notice them being any louder going from 200wpc to 400wpc.

By the same token I also think it makes sense that if the speakers are being fed less power, then some of the finer details of music will likely be muted & go unnoticed. Which is precisely what I discovered when I got the 200wpc amps.

I'm not an electrical engineer & hopefully this makes some sense to you.

This is very interesting! I don't know anything about the 3802 but I do have my 3805 hooked up to a 200WX2 amp.

When I first hooked up the amp, I calibrated the 3805 with the test tones and SPL meter and I did not notice any difference in "loudness".

As I posted before, I measured the voltage and current outputs with a true r.m.s. meter using the same tracks of a couple of Telarc CDs including the 1812 and Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s, mainly for the bass drum hits. With no noticeable/objectionable distortion, the current readings in r.m.s. were virtually the same for the 3805, 3805+the 200W amp, with SPL in the 90's and the volume up to "0". I have since done more tests such as measuring the peaks and push the SPL into the high 90's peaking over 100 dB, with similar results. I also tried the 3805 with a 350WX2 amp to see if it would push more currents into my power hungry Veritas. Well it didn't, the readings were still within a few % points among all 3 configurations. My 3910 univeral player was set to pure direct mode for all the tests. The subwoofer was not used at all.

I am sure you heard better sound with the powerful amps that you have, I just find it interesting that with the external amp you could turn the volume down 10 "notches". Also, in my calibrated system, I have to crank the 3805 to at least -20 for any serious listening to two channel music.

 

[wire]

Hi Peng. I do have my system calibrated to reference levels. I would say the difference is, my speakers are easy to drive 89.5dB, & recommended amplifier power is 30-250wpc. I started out with a 50 wpc Rotel amp, then went to the Denon, & now back to much more powerful separate amps.

I'm not into really measuring everything & studying specs. I simply trust my ears, and my ears noticed that my speakers sound MUCH better being fed 200wpc or more! Since they are rated for a max of 250wpc, I doubt that they will draw more than the 250 except at short intervals when called for. So that is why I wouldn't notice them being any louder going from 200wpc to 400wpc.

By the same token I also think it makes sense that if the speakers are being fed less power, then some of the finer details of music will likely be muted & go unnoticed. Which is precisely what I discovered when I got the 200wpc amps.

I'm not an electrical engineer & hopefully this makes some sense to you.

Cfrizz
Very nice amp . know wonder you noticed a difference . I have some older Carver gear and its good stuff . If only i could justify upgrading any of my equipment , i would look at Sunfire 1st .

 

[PENG]

Hi Peng. I do have my system calibrated to reference levels. I would say the difference is, my speakers are easy to drive 89.5dB, & recommended amplifier power is 30-250wpc. I started out with a 50 wpc Rotel amp, then went to the Denon, & now back to much more powerful separate amps.

I'm not into really measuring everything & studying specs. I simply trust my ears, and my ears noticed that my speakers sound MUCH better being fed 200wpc or more! Since they are rated for a max of 250wpc, I doubt that they will draw more than the 250 except at short intervals when called for. So that is why I wouldn't notice them being any louder going from 200wpc to 400wpc.

By the same token I also think it makes sense that if the speakers are being fed less power, then some of the finer details of music will likely be muted & go unnoticed. Which is precisely what I discovered when I got the 200wpc amps.

I'm not an electrical engineer & hopefully this makes some sense to you.

I didn't mean to question you about the calibration, but thank you for the confirmation. For clarity, let's stick to just the front channels for the moment. Since you had calibrated the system at reference level, the 3802 should sound just as loud (may not be as good) as the 3802+Sunfire, at least up to reference level. Now, unless the output from your source is exceptionally high, at -30 you won't be anywhere near reference level from say 10 ft away, whether you have the Sunfire hooked up or not. When you listen to the Sunfire at -40, you can be sure that the Sunfire is actually sending less power to the speakers than the 3802 on its own at -30. So less power get you more details, interesting!

10 dB is a lot, far too much to simply say the Sunfire has better dynamic range. Typically 3 dB increase represents about double the power, and if I remember correctly people may perceive a 10 dB increase in SPL as twice as loud. So I remain curious about why you could drop your listening level by 10 on the Denon's volume knob with the amp and still hear more details. It may not work for others though, not in my case anyway.

I believe you heard what you heard. I cannot understand the "why" perhaps because I am missing some points, facts etc........... Thank you for your response, and patience.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I thought that the dynamic range on CD's has gotten worse as of late. Don't most LP's have more dynamic range than many cd's? I don't know about SACD and DVD but for some reason I thought I remembered reading somewhere about CD's lacking in dynamic range...Is this true?

Today's CDs, most of them, not all, indeed has a lower dynamic range and a higher average volume as that is what people seem to prefer and demand for some odd reason.
So, I have no idea where he is getting his info from.

 

[cfrizz]

I don't know why either Peng. Maybe it's the difference in the quality of the power supplied by first the Parasound 1500A & now Sunfire vs the quality of the power supplied by the Denon. Oh yeah it was just the 2 front channels.

I just know that when I first turned on my receiver with amp attached & started playing a song at -30 which is where I always kept it, I had to scramble for the remote to turn it down to -40 before my neighbors decided to pound on the wall!

-30 is the loudest I will take it for music & -15 is as loud as I will take it for movies. Anything over that & my hearing will be put in jeapordy.

As I said, I don't really know all about dB's & that sort of stuff, I just trust my ears. Thanks for the polite discourse.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If a receiver has a 200W spike, but is not rated @ 200WPC, it would clip @ or before 200W due to it's low power consumption labled on the back. Correct?

If this statement is true, not saying it isn't, then ALL mid-fi receivers would clip on a regular basis. Speakers would fry, and so would the receiver. Also, my 110WPC Yamaha would go into protection mode while trying to drive my inefficient 4ohm MB Quarts. It never, ever did.

It is not true unless you are driving an insensitive speaker to very loud levels.
I'd like to see a home setup with 500 watts of rms power delivered on a continuous basis. Insanity, that is what that is.

 

[cfrizz]

Thank you Wire! I did luck out with this used purchase since I would never have bought it new! I was simply hoping to find a 200wpc 5 channel amp that I could lift, & this pretty much fell into my lap instead.

Cfrizz
Very nice amp . know wonder you noticed a difference . I have some older Carver gear and its good stuff . If only i could justify upgrading any of my equipment , i would look at Sunfire 1st .

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm not into really measuring everything & studying specs. I simply trust my ears, .

That is your whole problem, no controls, no measurements to support anything you are posting, it seems. And yes, your ears are far from being a trustworthy agent, period. Incontestable. Who knows what is going on with your perceptions and reality? No one under these circumstances.

Since they are rated for a max of 250wpc, I doubt that they will draw more than the 250 except at short intervals when called for. So that is why I wouldn't notice them being any louder going from 200wpc to 400wpc.


Why would they draw that much unless you are trying to drive it hard and loud? At 90dB sensitivity, 100 watts will deliver 110dB spl. Not enough?
And, a 400 watt amp could certainly deliver more than that 250 watt max if you drive it hard enough and fail.

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is very interesting! I don't know anything about the 3802 but I do have my 3805 hooked up to a 200WX2 amp.

When I first hooked up the amp, I calibrated the 3805 with the test tones and SPL meter and I did not notice any difference in "loudness".

As I posted before, I measured the voltage and current outputs with a true r.m.s. meter using the same tracks of a couple of Telarc CDs including the 1812 and Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s, mainly for the bass drum hits. With no noticeable/objectionable distortion, the current readings in r.m.s. were virtually the same for the 3805, 3805+the 200W amp, with SPL in the 90's and the volume up to "0". I have since done more tests such as measuring the peaks and push the SPL into the high 90's peaking over 100 dB, with similar results. I also tried the 3805 with a 350WX2 amp to see if it would push more currents into my power hungry Veritas. Well it didn't, the readings were still within a few % points among all 3 configurations. My 3910 univeral player was set to pure direct mode for all the tests. The subwoofer was not used at all.

I am sure you heard better sound with the powerful amps that you have, I just find it interesting that with the external amp you could turn the volume down 10 "notches". Also, in my calibrated system, I have to crank the 3805 to at least -20 for any serious listening to two channel music.

Exactly. And, with a better comparison in that you are able to look and measure at exactly the same peaks precisely, those % differences should disappear. The speaker doesn't know what the amps capability is. It knows what voltage and current it is getting or needs to produce a certain spl level.

It has the same impedance no matter which amp you connect, so th eload will be the same on each amp. a 5 watt signal will give the same spl no matter which amp is delivering that 5 watts, or 100 watts for that matter.

When people compare helter skelter, who knows what is going on for real.

 

[zumbo]

It is not true unless you are driving an insensitive speaker to very loud levels.
I'd like to see a home setup with 500 watts of rms power delivered on a continuous basis. Insanity, that is what that is.

Oops! I think my post was misread or miswrote. Both of my replies were to the quote. Not to my statement. They were both statements in some form of a question. I need to work on my writing skills.

I had to fix this one twice already! Where is Mulester 7 when you need him?