New receiver or new power amp?

[Buckeyefan 1]

So my current set up is:

Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1014TX
Fronts: B&W DM 604 - S3 x 2
Rears: B&W DM 602 - S3 x 2
Centre: B&W LCR 600 - S3
Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK2

The problem is I want it to be louder, I have the DM 604's bi-amped from the Pioneer but it seems as though they are still not getting enough power. So would I be better off spending $1000 on a 2 channel power amp just for my front towers and keeping the exiting receiver or buying a whole new receiver that has more power??

Thanks

Do as hifi says, and try a pro amp for your two towers. That should provide ample power while lowering the sound floor. The goal is to lower distortion as the dB's go up, not to simply increase dB's.

 

[cfrizz]

I was actually able to turn my volume down 10 notches to -40 & have greater clarity. There are no mind tricks involved.

I find it kind of funny that people will get cars that have more power, PC's that have more power, etc. but somehow don't want to have it for their music?

Power in just about all applications makes a big difference and that includes amplifiers. It provides the power necessary to maximize the output of the speaker without risking either speaker or receiver.

In other words your hearing will give out long before your speakers will.

Zumbo admitted that he gained other benefits from adding an amp which is details & clarity, but somehow that's not important. If you aren't hearing all of the details of the music, than what is the point of it all?

Hearing is believing Scott. Get one for yourself and find out.

Yes, if you turn it well above normal listening levels, it will be louder all right.
But, at normal levels, why would you get details you never heard before, unless the mind is playing tricks, once again.

 

[Nuglets]

Zumbo - the reason I say that it will get louder by adding more power is this. If the receiver is clipping before it's able to make the speaker's reproduce sound at their full potential(loudness), then adding power will raise the level at which the amplifier clips thus providing louder sound.

cfrizz - I don't think anybody is saying that getting more power is a bad thing. Comparing the "power" in a car, the "power" of a PC and the "power" of an amplifier is not relevant. The "power" in a car is defined HP@a given RPM, the power in a PC could be interpreted as the either speed of the PC or the actual amount of watts the power supply can output(which is the same type of power as an amplifier but won't give you any difference in the performance of the PC unless a component fails to work due to lack of power). Besides, I've been saying that more power is a good thing since the beginning anyways and a few other's have also, so how can you say people don't want power for their music?

cfrizz, I also think that you need to calibrate your speaker's if you watch movies or use any of the surround modes because if you are getting that large of an increase in volume at 10dB's less on your receiver then it's obvious that they aren't playing at the same SPL as they were before you got that amplifier. If you get all your speaker's to a proper SPL and keeping it consistent when comparing the sound of the amplifier vs. the sound of the receiver, you will likely hear less of a difference in sound quality. Just a few dB's difference when comparing can easily be misinterpreted as a difference in clarity or quality.

 

[RickT]

Assuming we are comparing two amps with similar capabilties other than power, doubling the power adds 3dB. That equates to loudness however you measure it.

It's pointless comparing an amp to most receivers since most are overrated and have very little if any headroom on top of that.

 

[Nick250]

Has everyone forgotten that when listening at moderate levels with these speakers that the power requirement is most likely in the 5 watt area? How does more power help with the "details"?

Nick

 

[Nuglets]

Has everyone forgotten that when listening at moderate levels with these speakers that the power requirement is most likely in the 5 watt area? How does more power help with the "details"?

Nick

There has only been one person so far that has said anything about the amplifier bringing out details not heard before. What most of us are saying is that when listening above moderate levels you need more power to prevent the amplifier from clipping.

 

[RickT]

Presactly ... Even at lower levels any decent amp will be superior to a receiver for a variety of reasons ...

 

[zumbo]

Presactly ... Even at lower levels any decent amp will be superior to a receiver for a variety of reasons ...

BS. Plain and simple. One amp producing *db (unclipped) compared to another amp producing *db (unclipped) connected to the same speakers will be the same.

Someone said the detail that I speak of will be at high levels. This is correct. Well above what my wife, friends, mother, and etc, can handle. I am the only one in my family who gets the music that loud. Otherwise, there is no difference. And, let me be clear, it's not louder than it was before the amp was added.

 

[highfihoney]

The thing that always sticks in my craw about these amp vs reciever threads is how many people refuse to accept that higher wattage generaly does good things for the system but instead try to focus on other areas,you could treat your listening room till the cows come home with accoustic panels,bass traps & what not but if the system is underpowered it will not rock,ever,period,no way jose,its not going to happen.

At this point in this thread clipping is not an issue,a reciever or amp does not need to go into full clip for it to run out of gas & what happens when it runs out of gas is that it dont have the reserve power or headroom to cover all the dynamic swings in the music,loss of dynamics or impact is instantly translated as loss of overall volume.

As i have posted in other threads i have seen & measured dynamic swings while listening with 500 watts continuous where the swing was close to 5,000 watts peak,that 10 times the wattage needed to accurately reproduce these peaks, this is where having extra wattage on hand makes all the difference, without reserve wattage impact will be lost.

 

[Seth=L]

The thing that always sticks in my craw about these amp vs reciever threads is how many people refuse to accept that higher wattage generaly does good things for the system but instead try to focus on other areas,you could treat your listening room till the cows come home with accoustic panels,bass traps & what not but if the system is underpowered it will not rock,ever,period,no way jose,its not going to happen.

At this point in this thread clipping is not an issue,a reciever or amp does not need to go into full clip for it to run out of gas & what happens when it runs out of gas is that it dont have the reserve power or headroom to cover all the dynamic swings in the music,loss of dynamics or impact is instantly translated as loss of overall volume.

As i have posted in other threads i have seen & measured dynamic swings while listening with 500 watts continuous where the swing was close to 5,000 watts peak,that 10 times the wattage needed to accurately reproduce these peaks, this is where having extra wattage on hand makes all the difference, without reserve wattage impact will be lost.

I totally agree with you. I used to have Carver amplifier, it had lots of dynamic headroom. I have yet to hear a receiver that has lots of headroom, they tend to flatten out at higher volumes. The OP obviously notices a problem with dynamics and in concordance with that, volume. A powerful amplifier should definitely enhance your music and movie watching experiance.

 

[tlqualman]

I am currently using my Denon 5700 reciever as my processor and have it connected to a Parasound Halo A21 250/watt/ch amp. The Denon had 140/watts/ch already and sounded good but having having the extra power from a dedicated amp has made a big difference. My ears give out before the clean power does. The bass is tighter and everything sounds better. I don't think you will go wrong with a seperate power amp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Has everyone forgotten that when listening at moderate levels with these speakers that the power requirement is most likely in the 5 watt area? How does more power help with the "details"?

Nick

Mind tricks But, that is hard to accept. Reality sucks

 

[mtrycrafts]

Presactly ... Even at lower levels any decent amp will be superior to a receiver for a variety of reasons ...

Please give evidence for this claim.

 

[mtrycrafts]

There has only been one person so far that has said anything about the amplifier bringing out details not heard before. What most of us are saying is that when listening above moderate levels you need more power to prevent the amplifier from clipping.

The only detail you might be missing is at a level that is above the previous amps design power limit and that speakers sensitivity, period.
You will not miss any detail requiring 5 watts of power, period. You will not miss detail that requires 50 watts from a 100 watt amp, period.
You could miss it if a detail spikes to 200 watts but I have a hard time seeing when such a spike in music would come as that would depend on speaker sensitivity and recorded level.

 

[Nick250]

Presactly ... Even at lower levels any decent amp will be superior to a receiver for a variety of reasons ...

What are those reasons?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I was actually able to turn my volume down 10 notches to -40 & have greater clarity. There are no mind tricks involved.

That is a claim, yes. Whop knows how the comparison was performed with what flaws.

I find it kind of funny that people will get cars that have more power, PC's that have more power, etc. but somehow don't want to have it for their music?

I find it funny that you would use such irrelevant comparisons to try to explain yourself.

Power in just about all applications makes a big difference and that includes amplifiers.

Maybe, maybe not. You can only go so fast with your cars. I am not in a hurry to accelerate to 55 or 65mph, are you?


In other words your hearing will give out long before your speakers will.

Actually, your speakers will too as it increases distortion , compression as you increase power, and how.


Zumbo admitted that he gained other benefits from adding an amp which is details & clarity, but somehow that's not important.

That is the claim, unverified as who knows how good his comparison protocol was, how biased he was, etc. So, it is not convincing.


If you aren't hearing all of the details of the music, than what is the point of it all?

Right. You will not hear it all. Hearing is very masking to begin with, right? Some will disappear in the rooms noise floor, etc.

 

[highfihoney]

The only detail you might be missing is at a level that is above the previous amps design power limit and that speakers sensitivity, period.
You will not miss any detail requiring 5 watts of power, period. You will not miss detail that requires 50 watts from a 100 watt amp, period.
You could miss it if a detail spikes to 200 watts but I have a hard time seeing when such a spike in music would come as that would depend on speaker sensitivity and recorded level.

This statement is simply not true,peaks requiring 4x wattage are extremely common,a 200 watt spike from an amp/reviever being driven at 50 watts is very normal unless all the load has been taken off the amp & been reassigned to a subwoofer.

 

[PENG]

This statement is simply not true,peaks requiring 4x wattage are extremely common,a 200 watt spike from an amp/reviever being driven at 50 watts is very normal unless all the load has been taken off the amp & been reassigned to a subwoofer.

This is something I can agree to, I hope mtry probably could too? Too bad the OP has not provided us with more specifics, other than:

"The problem is I want it to be louder, I have the DM 604's bi-amped from the Pioneer but it seems as though they are still not getting enough power."

 

[zumbo]

This statement is simply not true,peaks requiring 4x wattage are extremely common,a 200 watt spike from an amp/reviever being driven at 50 watts is very normal unless all the load has been taken off the amp & been reassigned to a subwoofer.

If a receiver has a 200W spike, but is not rated @ 200WPC, it would clip @ or before 200W due to it's low power consumption labled on the back. Correct?

If this statement is true, not saying it isn't, then ALL mid-fi receivers would clip on a regular basis. Speakers would fry, and so would the receiver. Also, my 110WPC Yamaha would go into protection mode while trying to drive my inefficient 4ohm MB Quarts. It never, ever did.

 

[highfihoney]

If a receiver has a 200W spike, but is not rated @ 200WPC, it would clip @ or before 200W due to it's low power consumption labled on the back. Correct?

If this statement is true, not saying it isn't, then ALL mid-fi receivers would clip on a regular basis. Speakers would fry, and so would the receiver. Also, my 110WPC Yamaha would go into protection mode while trying to drive my inefficient 4ohm MB Quarts. It never, ever did.

Hi zumbo,long time no see so to speak.

What you wrote is true but only to a point,depending an the actual duration of the peak the time that the extra wattage is needed may not be enough for the amp to clip even though it couldnt produce the necessary wattage.

Also most if not all protection circuts are based on distortion values not wattage being produced,im going by the 50 watt continuous figure,driving an amp that is rated at 100 watts continuous with a 50 watt demand is not pushing it very hard & not likely to raise distortion levels enough for a protection circut to kick in but the amp will not be able to produce a 200 watt spontanious burst & being that the demand time for that 200 watts was so short the protection circut wont kick in ,this is where i find music looses its slam.

have a great holiday