New receiver or new power amp?

[Scott Andrew]

So my current set up is:

Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1014TX
Fronts: B&W DM 604 - S3 x 2
Rears: B&W DM 602 - S3 x 2
Centre: B&W LCR 600 - S3
Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK2

The problem is I want it to be louder, I have the DM 604's bi-amped from the Pioneer but it seems as though they are still not getting enough power. So would I be better off spending $1000 on a 2 channel power amp just for my front towers and keeping the exiting receiver or buying a whole new receiver that has more power??

Thanks

 

[zumbo]

More power is most likely not going to make it louder. If you are not clipping your current rig, more power is not needed.

Room treatment will.
More efficient speakers will.

 

[Seth=L]

You could try the Behringer A500 for you your fronts and leave the rest of the channels to the reciever. Best part is the A500 is less than $200.

 

[Seth=L]

So my current set up is:

Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1014TX
Fronts: B&W DM 604 - S3 x 2
Rears: B&W DM 602 - S3 x 2
Centre: B&W LCR 600 - S3
Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK2

The problem is I want it to be louder, I have the DM 604's bi-amped from the Pioneer but it seems as though they are still not getting enough power. So would I be better off spending $1000 on a 2 channel power amp just for my front towers and keeping the exiting receiver or buying a whole new receiver that has more power??

Thanks

Bi-amping at the receiver isn't going to help. They still use the same power supply and capacitors.

 

[Nuglets]

More power is most likely not going to make it louder. If you are not clipping your current rig, more power is not needed.

Room treatment will.
More efficient speakers will.

I'm assuming that if he is under the impression that he needs more power he probably is clipping his amplifier. A receiver amplifier doesn't take much to go into clipping especially if they are a somewhat insensitive speaker. In my opinion more power will help you a lot. Room treatment will help for sure but it's in a different league of upgrade in my opinion. New speakers could either help or hurt depending on the sound you like(I'm assuming you like what you have so that probably isn't a very reasonable option). If you are running out of power at the moment your best bet would be to buy a separate amplifier.

The sensitivity of my speaker's is 92dB and the subwoofer's have their own amplifier and I can still get my red clipping LED's to blink once and a while if I feel like pushing the limit's. Granted, the LED's come on a bit before the amplifier actually clips but it does show that if you listen loud you can easily clip a powerful amp even with a sensitive speaker. If I can clip that amplifier I know why I was unimpressed with my setup before I connected it. Most receiver's are obviously far less powerful than that amp so I'm guessing that if you listen loud you easily clip your amplifier and probably more than your speaker's would like.

 

[highfihoney]

Ill say this much about having power,you can never have too much truly clean wattage,with that being said its easy to be sure if adding an external amp will give your speakers the shot in the arm your looking for & i suspect it will,go to any local "guitar center" store & buy a crown ce-4000 amplifier,guitar center offers a 30 day no questions asked money back policy on all amps that they cary,the crown is 600 wpc @ 8 ohms & 1200 wpc @ 4 ohms,if you dont like the amp or the extra power didnt help you out just take it back to the store & your out nothing but i'd think alot of extra wattage is exactly what your b&w's need.

 

[zumbo]

I'm assuming that if he is under the impression that he needs more power he probably is clipping his amplifier. A receiver amplifier doesn't take much to go into clipping especially if they are a somewhat insensitive speaker. In my opinion more power will help you a lot.

More power will help, but the result will not be "louder".

New speakers could either help or hurt depending on the sound you like(I'm assuming you like what you have so that probably isn't a very reasonable option).

I understand that new speakers is not an option. But, if louder is what they want, that is what it will take.

Room treatment will help for sure but it's in a different league of upgrade in my opinion.

The only other option is room treatment. Doesn't have to be expensive stuff. Hang thick rugs, change location of speakers, it's all listed in the proper section.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

 

[cfrizz]

Add a Separate Amplifier

Hi Scott.

The single biggest improvement I made to my system was by adding a separate amplifier to my Denon receiver. I started out with a Parasound 1500A 205wpc amp. I liked that so much I added an Outlaw Monoblock for my center channel. Then earlier this year I finally just got the Sunfire 5 chnl 405wpc amp that is in my signature!

I always recommend starting at 200wpc & going up from there. However, I didn't notice any difference when I went from 200wpc up to 400wpc so I think 200wpc will drive any speaker to its fullest extent.

You will notice details in your music & movies that you have never noticed before, and everything will simply sound more articulate as well as louder.

So start looking at Audiogon for a separate amp & just do it once by getting a 5 channel amp and be done with it!

 

[zumbo]

Hi Scott.


I didn't notice any difference when I went from 200wpc up to 400wpc so I think 200wpc will drive any speaker to its fullest extent.

everything will simply sound more articulate as well as louder.

Two excerpts from the last post. Hmmmmmm.

 

[cfrizz]

What are you confused about Zumbo? As I said 200wpc will drive any speaker, going higher than that I believe you enter into diminishing returns.

I didn't get the Sunfire for the extra power, I got it because it was a 5 channel amp that I could physically manage. The extra wattage was a bonus.

But as I said, I didn't notice any huge improvement getting the additional wattage, so I think 200wpc is a very good starting point.

 

[zumbo]

But as I said, I didn't notice any huge improvement getting the additional wattage, so I think 200wpc is a very good starting point.

If you didn't notice a difference from 200 to 400, how do you expect someone to notice a difference from 110 to 200? Remember, this pertains to loudness. I am fully aware of the detail aspect.

This is in no way an attempt to attack a new member, just trying to inform the other member of the loudness issue before they spend their money.

 

[cfrizz]

Very simply because that 110 from the receiver is being split 5 different ways trying to drive all the channels. We all know that what each speaker is getting is far less than the 110 watts as stated by Denon.

As far as I'm concerned, it is getting the full details of the music/movies that the 200wpc gives you is the most important factor.

When I ran my speakers on just my Denon, my usual volume was -30. My usual volume now is -40 and it is significantly clearer & articulate than when my Denon was at -30.

If I can clearly hear all details in the program at -40, than there is no need to turn it up to -30 unless I just want to rock! (Which I often do.)

If you didn't notice a difference from 200 to 400, how do you expect someone to notice a difference from 110 to 200? Remember, this pertains to loudness. I am fully aware of the detail aspect.

 

[zumbo]

Very simply because that 110 from the receiver is being split 5 different ways trying to drive all the channels. We all know that what each speaker is getting is far less than the 110 watts as stated by Denon.

When in 2-channel mode, the receiver will put out 110 x 2. When set to 5.1, that would equal 220/5. Not 110/5. When rocking out, don't you listen in 2-channel? Going from 110 to 200 will yield nothing in the form of loudness. As I stated, I understand the gained detail and control over the speaker. That is not the issue here.

 

[cfrizz]

Depending on my mood, I will listen in both 2 channel or 5 channel.

I think you & I had simply better to agree to disagree Zumbo.

I know that to my own ears, having 200wpc from a separate amplifier will drive speakers cleaner & louder than any receiver will all by itself.

Scott do yourself a favor and go compare a receiver vs amp for yourself. You will quickly hear the difference.

 

[zumbo]

Yamaha RX-V1400-receiver
Adcom GFA-7605-amp
Adcom ACE-315-power conditioner
Yamaha S840-dvd
Yamaha CDC-645-cd
MB Quart QLS 830's-front & rear
MB Quart QLS 330-ctr
NHT SW12-sub
Old Sony tv (next upgrade)
Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 (Time Warner Digital Cable)
Hitachi FX6404 VCR
Interconnects: Bluejeans, Ixos, Tara Labs, and AR

I have an external amp myself. All it did was take the strain off of my receiver. But, the receiver never went into protection mode before I added the amp. There is more detail at high listening levels, and better control over the speaker. It is in no way what so ever louder.

 

[cfrizz]

The bottom line is that Scott will achieve louder, more detail & greater clarity with a separate amplifier driving his speakers than he will with just his receiver.

I have an external amp myself. All it did was take the strain off of my receiver. But, the receiver never went into protection mode before I added the amp. There is more detail at high listening levels, and better control over the speaker. It is in no way what so ever louder.

 

[zumbo]

The bottom line is that Scott will achieve louder, more detail & greater clarity with a separate amplifier driving his speakers than he will with just his receiver.

Well, seeing as how you doubled your power and "didn't notice any difference ", and I added a hefty amp that didn't yield any volume gain, I am sure Scott can rest easy knowing he will blow his ears off when he adds an amp.

 

[PENG]

I think it depends on what Scott meant by "louder". Zumbo would probably (cannot be sure without knowing his room acoustic parameters) be right in terms of physics/engineering principles if one goes by the measured SPL to gauge how loud it is to Scott.

Cfrizz would probably be right if Scott was after louder bass, warmer brass sound etc. In that case, a separate 200WX2 or X5 amp would give Scott the perception of "louder", even at the same measured SPL.

With sensitivity of 90 dB, unless those 604s are in a huge room, it should not take a lot of power to make them loud. My guess is, Scott wanted more than just SPL. May be he will tell us more.

 

[mike c]

PENG laid down exactly what I was thinking ...

it's not louder PER SE - because when I compared my receiver and an external amp - I was comparing at the same SPL level, but it still "FELT" louder, especially with the bass.

to the OP, I agree, get at least 200wpc and you'll be happy

 

[mtrycrafts]

You will notice details in your music & movies that you have never noticed before, and everything will simply sound more articulate as well as louder.

Yes, if you turn it well above normal listening levels, it will be louder all right.
But, at normal levels, why would you get details you never heard before, unless the mind is playing tricks, once again.