New Onkyo TX-NR5100, NR6050, NR6100, NR7100 Receivers redirect surround channel information

M

Mike Up

Audioholic
to surround 'back' speakers with a 5.1 channel input and output. Then there's no side surround speaker output at all. This is for straight 5.1 DD, DD+, DTHD modes. I was wondering if there is a new Spec from Dolby to push out surround channel info through the surround 'back' channels with only a 5.1 channel input and output in a 7.1 speaker setup?

Technically this could be better as a 5.1 only setup should have the surround speakers at 120 degrees from listening position compared to a 7.1 setup at 90 degrees. The 7.1 setup surround back speakers are setup at 135 degrees. That being a 7.1 setup 135 degree surround back speaker position being more correct for a 5.1 input/output than the 7.1 setup 90 degree surround speaker.

I never seen this before. Yamaha seems to just send the same surround channel info to both surround speakers and surround back speakers with a 5.1 input and output mode.

Denon follows the 5.1 input with the 5.1 output speakers. No surround back channels at all for a 5.1 input and output, in a 7.1 speaker setup (unless using Dolby Surround Mode with a 5.1 input). Onkyo's previous models, XT-NR595, NR696, NR797 follows what Denon does.

Of course using Dolby Surround Mode with a 5.1 input will upmix to use all 7.1 speakers with their correct channel information.
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
I tried to tell ya'.;)

Onkyo TX-NR6050 Manual, Page 139:
Screenshot 2022-11-05 at 12.52.09 PM.png
 
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M

Mike Up

Audioholic
I tried to tell ya'.;)

Onkyo TX-NR6050 Manual, Page 139:
View attachment 58452
Yeh, I knew this from the get go. I'm just curious why they are doing that. I honestly would had thought they would had just copied from the surround channels like the 'option' on my early Denon AVR-3803 where surround channel info would play out of both the surround speakers PLUS the surround back speakers.

I'm wondering what made Onkyo change from a traditional, no output from surround back channel with 5.1 soundtrack to switching the surround speakers with the surround back speakers.

What made ONKYO decide to do this when it's traditionally not done?

As I said, I can see benefits as in a true 5.1 system, surround speakers are suppose to be at 120 degrees, not the 90 degrees in a 7.1 system. The surround back speakers being at 135 degrees is a lot closer to the 120 degrees demanded by a 5.1 only signal, than the 90 degrees now used for surround speakers in a 7.1 speaker setup.

Being Onkyo never changed this until this 2021 receiver line up, what caused their change??
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Actually, you didn't know it from the get go and said you hadn't experienced it. No biggy, but we did discuss it over in your other thread:


Trebdp83 said:
in a case involving a Dolby Digital signal and a sound mode selection of just DD and not Dolby Surround using a 7.1 configuration , the surround speakers may not produce sound. I've experienced it and it is an issue going back years with Onkyo models.
I'll have to check that as I didn't experience it at all, both surrounds and surround backs were playing.

Trebdp83 said:
The quirks of the Dolby and DTS up mixers can be eliminated simply by reconfiguring a 7.1 setup to a 5.1.2 setup if a room and speakers can accommodate switch. With the new up mixers, more is gained in a 5.1.2 setup than is lost when changing from a 7.1 setup. But, it simply isn't an option for one reason or another in many rooms. If one has elevated surround and surround back speakers that were placed many years ago for a 7.1 setup, they would need to be lowered to accommodate a set of height speakers and even need to be lowered to optimize the effects of height virtualization.
I've wondered about going to a 5.1.2 system but I'm not sure if the results will be more positive in my room.

As I started reading these new receiver manuals, I wondered why they were recommending the surround and surround back speakers to be installed in the WRONG position. They shouldn't be installed level with the listeners ears but at 3' above the listeners ears yet they NOW were be recommended lower. My speakers are 3' above listeners ears as what a "TRUE" 7.1 system is suppose to be setup as.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Couldn't say why they did it or if they were forced to do it. Hey, everything about Dolby costs money. Gotta' pick your poison when you don't have deep pockets.
 
M

Mike Up

Audioholic
Actually, you didn't know it from the get go and said you hadn't experienced it. No biggy, but we did discuss it over in your other thread:



I'll have to check that as I didn't experience it at all, both surrounds and surround backs were playing.
I misunderstood your post, I thought you meant you lost all the surround sound not just the side surround sound.

I also thought originally the surround back speakers were mirroring the side surround sound. I realized after actually checking they were just flipping the speakers that were used.

So I realized it shortly after this post. Sorry, I didn't understand your post the way you meant it to be. No big deal, all is good.

So Onkyo has been flipping these speakers for years but just put it in the new manuals?

Even how DTS signals are used isn't clear. With straight DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1, I'm getting sound out of all 4 surround speaker's. I don't know if they're mirrored, Matrixed, or something else. On my Denon AVR-2312ci, there's an option for surround back speaker on what sounds they play. There's an option called "ON" which DTS automatically selects what sound to output based on the DTS decision for that soundtrack. I'm guessing that's what's happening on DTS with the Onkyo.

Denon manual,"
ON*1 : Convert the 5.1-channel source of the DTS/DTS-HD input
signals to the 7.1-channel output recommended by DTS and then play.

*1 This can be selected when playing the 5.1-channel source of DTS/
DTS-HD.
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
No worries. I think it’s a silly way to do things and wish everybody did what Denon did in the past. Let folks choose to duplicate surround info into surround back channels or matrix it into surround back channels if playing a 5.1 track in a 7.1 configuration.
 
M

Mike Up

Audioholic
Yeh, I like the way Denon does it for sure. For me, not a big deal but for some, it could be a lot more confusing. Onkyo is much simpler because they don't give you the option. Onkyo just does it the way they want and you take it, like it or not. I think for straight, surround channel info copied to the surround back channels is best. Theaters done this for years. Yamaha seems to do this with their RX-V6A. Then Direct should leave it as it is, as the DTS direct mode does.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeh, I like the way Denon does it for sure. For me, not a big deal but for some, it could be a lot more confusing. Onkyo is much simpler because they don't give you the option. Onkyo just does it the way they want and you take it, like it or not. I think for straight, surround channel info copied to the surround back channels is best. Theaters done this for years. Yamaha seems to do this with their RX-V6A. Then Direct should leave it as it is, as the DTS direct mode does.
I think the problem is that Onkyo does not use the Dolby upmixer, they use their own. I think the Dolby upmixer is the only one that is any good.

There are Atmos stream coming on line that are really upmixed streams and they are awful. The Dolby upmixer is the only one I cold recommend, as it is incredibly good.
That is a reason not the buy and Onkyo receiver. I'm sure licensing fees are at the bottom of it. So, as usual you pay for what you bet. Buyer be aware!
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Onkyo receivers do in fact have the Dolby Surround upmixer as well as the DTS Neural:X upmixer. Like other brands, they also include their own silly DSP modes that I personally never use.

There are no upmixed signals being streamed online. Signals are upmixed by processors and receivers and a few other devices. Some devices decode and convert the Dolby Atmos/DD+ signal and it is output in an LPCM container with Atmos metadata intact(Dolby MAT.) This is how the Apple TV 4K and XBOX Series X/S deliver Atmos.

Microsoft’s Dolby Access app is a piece of s#%t that, in the case of the XBOX Series S at least, forces the upmix of non atmos tracks when selecting Dolby Atmos for home theater(HDMI Only) for output. Even if turning the upmix option off within the app, it still forces the upmix and the signal making its way to the receiver will display as Dolby Surround and one could apply the Dolby Surround mode to it for redundancy’s sake. Just a mess.

This behavior by Onkyo receivers is not too head scratching when considering new speakers and configurations. Gone are the days of mono signals at the sides being diffused by dipole surround speakers up on the wall above ear level. Surround speakers, when configuring for Dolby Atmos, should be direct firing speakers at or slightly above ear level. So, Onkyo sends surround info to surround back channels when selecting a “Straight” decode of Dolby 5.1 signals using a 7.1 configuration I think for reasons @Mike Up hit upon.

Now, this behavior is not unheard of in the sound processing world. Consider behavior by Marantz when selecting “IMAX DTS” mode while playing a DTS 5.1 signal. Like Onkyo and Dolby 5.1 signals in a 7.1 configuration, surround channel information is sent to surround back channels. I’ll stick with my 5.1 and height virtualization configuration for now.;) It’s far less fussy with sound modes than other speaker configurations.
06F364BB-D65C-46A7-B2A7-46875BCE39B1.jpeg
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic
Very happy using Dolby Surround as my primary mixer for all streams on my Integra DRX 3.4

Setup is 5.1
 
M

Mike Up

Audioholic
With my setup, I guess I wish Direct and Straight DD/DD+/DD True 5.1, surround channel info came from the Side surround speakers as that would be best in my system. However I had alway used DPL IIx on the surround back channels with 5.1 sources just as I plan now to use Dolby Surround/Neural:X with 5.1 sources.
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic
DPLII worked well for music DSU works well too... not sure that it is quite as good as DPLII for music, but DPLII has been deprecated in all current AVR's / Processors so not really an option.
 
M

Mike Up

Audioholic
DPLII worked well for music DSU works well too... not sure that it is quite as good as DPLII for music, but DPLII has been deprecated in all current AVR's / Processors so not really an option.
Yes, DPLIIx Music offers a lot more functionality than Dolby Surround, that's for sure.

I did return my Onkyo TX-NR6050, to many functional design issues to work correctly in my home theater. I went back to a Denon and now it has the correct functionality that I need for my home theater. I went with a new Denon AVR-S960H that sounds great.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
DPLII worked well for music DSU works well too... not sure that it is quite as good as DPLII for music, but DPLII has been deprecated in all current AVR's / Processors so not really an option.
I think DSU is pretty good for music, and it’s mostly what I use(dtsnx is not good for music imo), because DPLII is gone. I really liked the adjustability of it. Used DPLIIx for a looong time and imo it’s better than DSU in a lot of ways.
 
M

Mike Up

Audioholic
DPLII is still used on the new 5.1 receivers. I guess there was no easy way to use it for atmos speakers so Dolby completely changed it so much a new name was in order.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Some new 5.1 receivers that do not support height virtualization from Dolby or DTS are not equipped with object based surround upmixers such as the new Dolby Surround or DTS NEURAL:X upmixers and Dolby Atmos and DTS:X are not supported at all. The older channel based up mixers Dolby Pro Logic II and DTS Neo:6 are used in these receivers. Some new 5.1 models support height virtualization from Dolby and DTS using virtual speakers and will include the new object based Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers and can process Dolby Atmos and DTS:X metadata.
 
M

Mike Up

Audioholic
I guess Onkyo has been doing this surround channel, surround back channel, flipping since the TX-NR797 receiver and pissing off buyers. 797 manual even says that a DD 5.1 signal on a 7.1 speaker setup will have no sound out of the surround REAR speakers.

I guess they did a firmware update and changed that.

Here's the thread about it.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
I guess Onkyo has been doing this surround channel, surround back channel, flipping since the TX-NR797 receiver and pissing off buyers. 797 manual even says that a DD 5.1 signal on a 7.1 speaker setup will have no sound out of the surround REAR speakers.

I guess they did a firmware update and changed that.

Here's the thread about it.
I still just can’t figure out why they would do that? It makes ZERO fukkin sense. Who wants to listen like that?????
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
I think I mentioned it being something that goes back even further than the TX-NR797. When referring to surround channels, meaning speakers 4 and 5, never apply the word REAR as it is a synonym for BACK and some may think you are speaking in regard to the surround back channels 6 and 7 and your statement would actually make sense to them.

Now, instead of going on about Onkyo’s handling of Dolby signals at Dolby’s direction since it longer concerns you, go educate yourself about the differences between Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Surround and the applicable sound modes and corresponding input signals on your new Denon. You might also look up which services and apps actually support Dolby Atmos on your various streaming devices and how to output the signal properly in those devices for optimal playback.
 
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