New Member Seeking Wisdom

J

Juto

Audiophyte
Ok. First things, hello all and thank you for dealing with my noobism :)

So. I'll be moving out of my apartment into into a house (YAY!!!!)

Being a movie aficionado I see this as a opportunity to finally get a home theater system without the worries and restrictions of disturbing neighbors.

Some information about myself:

1. I love movies. I make frequent visits to theaters to view movies of my liking.
2. I am not hesitant when it comes to forking over more of my hard earned $ to view a movie on the big screen. In fact IMAX theaters make me want to melt. Just recently saw Tron in IMAX and I had stars in my eyes. Been visiting IMAX theaters since the Third Matrix movie and have seen almost all the big IMAX releases since. I am completely aware of the difference in sound between a IMAX theater and non-IMAX theater, and these difference are phenomenal. So I guess I do have a sense of good vs. amazing sound.
3. I love playing video games. I have a 5.1 speaker on my computer and I can tell you that sound makes so big of a difference to me that I'd give up watching blu-rays/playing Xbox on my 52" Sony Flat panel to watch on my 24" Monitor simply cause it has 5.1 speakers and they make that big of a difference to the expierence.
4. I own a HDTV (not 3-D b/c I hate wearing the glasses and have heard Sony is coming out with TV that require no glasses so I'm waiting ;) ). I also have Xbox 360 and a 3-D capable Blu-Ray Disc Player. I have a HD-DVR Satellite as well.

Now I'll Explain What I Want From My Audio System:

I want to let you know that I am a totally clueless when it comes to audiophile vocabulary. I've never had a home theater system and am completely unaware of anything someone tells me about one (I went to HHGregg and someone was trying to figure out what I wanted and I just looked at him with a blank look).

I researched some on the internet about some good Home Theater systems and stumbled upon a few I liked. They were Onkyo HT-S7300 and Onkyo HT-S9300THX. However, I also read that if I were to be paying prices in the range of this that I would be better off buying separate components with which the overall experience would be greater then by buying the HTIB's (I just recently learned what this meant lol...). The idea of having to figure out what components would come together just scares the hell outta me cause I haven't a clue where to begin.

So here I am now asking for your wisdom. If you need any further information of what I need plz don't hesitate to ask. Just remember you might have to use very simple audio language for my novice self to comprehend your advanced wisdom :p

Oh. Almost forgot. My Budget is 500-1200 dollars. I am very adamant about getting the most bang for my buck and will shop around for weeks to get the best equipment at the best price :D
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
First Welcome to AH forums.
If you are looking for knowledge you need to start to do lot of reading starting here:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles
How big is the space (including open rooms) in sq?
You have to understand - in order to get anywhere close to IMAX sound you'll need much more than $1200, but this amount could help you start with few building blocks and add later then your budget allows.
So bottom line : you should start looking for Home Theater receiver and 2.1 speaker system.
 
J

Juto

Audiophyte
Ahh thanks for the link. Will get along reading that.

Not sure on the dimensions of the room. Will more then likely have to go out and measure it.

I know I won't be able to achieve IMAX sound quality... probably ever haha. I was just trying to convey that I knew there is a difference between good sound and amazing sound.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I know I won't be able to achieve IMAX sound quality... probably ever haha.
I think we are not a few here who truly believe our setups are superior to the IMAX theater. I for one prefer mine for both* audio and video. I also think we are not a few here who think we can do this with a budget that is somewhat reasonable. However, I am saying this with the knowledge that most people don't have homes that can accommodate the size of an IMAX theater. When the space is smaller, there is less power necessary, less speakers, less lumens on the projector, less seating, etc.

Oh. Almost forgot. My Budget is 500-1200 dollars. I am very adamant about getting the most bang for my buck and will shop around for weeks to get the best equipment at the best price :D
Or you can take those weeks and build yourself everything.

projector ~$2k

receiver ~$600

DIY Seymour XD screen ~$150
DIY speakers, 5 of them ~$1100(?)
DIY subwoofer ~$650(?) including amp


Bunch of AV stuff: $4,500
Blowing away every theater in your local area, including the IMAX: Priceless
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
jostenmeat is 100% right, you'd never get better bang for a buck than DIY.
There are plenty of well documented projects and some are very easy to build.
 
J

Juto

Audiophyte
I understand that $4500 could get me something comparable to IMAX sound since my living room is alot smaller. But $4500 is still out of my cost range.

This will most likely be a temp system. But I won't be willing to put out that much cash until I move into my own place. This is something we will use for a family room.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
You need to clarify.

Is $1200 your maximum budget - as in the maximum you are willing to allocate to a system, period? Or is it what you have now and would you be interested in choosing components which allow you a good basic system now that you could save/build towards a better ultimate system over the next few years?

Secondly, are you interested in DIY for speakers, screen, and/or sub?
 
J

Juto

Audiophyte
Well considering this really isn't my money that I will be using I assume $1200 will be my maximum budget at this point in time. However, at some later point if I feel I want to upgrade the system it would always be nice to have to option to do so.

DIY is not a probable option. Like I said in my first post I have no experience with speakers let alone building them on my own from scratch.

I did a little more research and I figured I want to have at least a 5.1 system but 7.1 is preferred.

Im going to look at the house today and will try to get the exact dimensions of the room for you guys, as I'm sure that is a pretty important thing to know.

Thanks for the responses.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
2. I am not hesitant when it comes to forking over more of my hard earned $ to view a movie on the big screen. In fact IMAX theaters make me want to melt. Just recently saw Tron in IMAX and I had stars in my eyes. Been visiting IMAX theaters since the Third Matrix movie and have seen almost all the big IMAX releases since. I am completely aware of the difference in sound between a IMAX theater and non-IMAX theater, and these difference are phenomenal. So I guess I do have a sense of good vs. amazing sound.
To get amazing sound, the two most important factors are usually the speakers and the room itself. You then need to amplify them properly, and preamplify that properly, but "properly" depends on what speakers you end up with.

3. I love playing video games. I have a 5.1 speaker on my computer and I can tell you that sound makes so big of a difference to me that I'd give up watching blu-rays/playing Xbox on my 52" Sony Flat panel to watch on my 24" Monitor simply cause it has 5.1 speakers and they make that big of a difference to the expierence.
This is going to come as a bit of a surprise to you but a quality pair of stereo speakers will give you a more amazing experience then a mediocre 5.1 set, if we're talking about budget. I'd invest in some mains and a subwoofer.

I want to let you know that I am a totally clueless when it comes to audiophile vocabulary.
Perfect. Then we don't have to worry about beating the BS out of you :D

There's only a few vocabulary you need to worry about

Soundstage and imaging - How wide does the sound feel, how tall does it feel, how deep does it feel, and where do individual sounds in a stereo recording come from? This is often attributed to room interaction as well as off-axis frequency response.

Tonality - Does it get the sound of something "right"? We search for neutrality here, and that's usually accompanied by a flat mid-range frequency response

Dynamics. Does it handle a very quiet passage with clarity, and can it shift to an extremely loud passage cleanly?

... that's about it... for now :D

I researched some on the internet about some good Home Theater systems and stumbled upon a few I liked. They were Onkyo HT-S7300 and Onkyo HT-S9300THX. However, I also read that if I were to be paying prices in the range of this that I would be better off buying separate components with which the overall experience would be greater then by buying the HTIB's (I just recently learned what this meant lol...). The idea of having to figure out what components would come together just scares the hell outta me cause I haven't a clue where to begin.
Right here :D. For starters let's make a list of what you need in some sort of logical order

-Processor - This will decode high definition surround codecs and preamplify a signal for an amplifier. A receiver is part processor and part amplifier.

-Amplification - This will either be in your receiver to power passive loudspeakers, or built into your active loudspeakers.

-Wires - 14awg is usually a good choice of gauge. Monoprice is usually the go-to place although you sometimes have to do a slight bit of DIY with as far as connectors. Blue Jeans Cable is a good choice for completely ready-made wire.

-Front Speakers - A great pair of front speakers hold a ton of sonic information, and can either completely bring a soundtrack to life or make it dull and flat. In movies they usually hold a good deal of ambient information, background music, and dynamic special effects such as gun shots.

-Diffusion and absorption panels - The right balance of these things is key. If you don't get the room right, you could buy $20,000 speakers and have them sound "wrong". The goal is to take away reflections within the first 10ms but keep later reflections. This gives an enveloping soundstage.

-Subwoofer - A subwoofer holds a lot of "impact". It's not just there to add some one-note rumble... it brings to life an entire effects channel.. the .1 in 5.1! Over here we like to recommend multiple subwoofers because in a room, any given spot will be likely to have nulls as described below, and peaks. With multiple subwoofers we can have a move even bass response at different seating positions. Placement and subwoofer choice are very important. You must select a subwoofer based on how it will presumably interact with your specific room!

-Bass Traps - In a room, bass wavelengths are just too big, will reflect, and merge, and cancel. There will be too many peaks and valleys in response from 20hz to 500hz or so. With bass traps we can clean that up to an extent and really give definition to bass.

-Soundproofing - We don't want our sound to leave the home theater. That will reduce our own apparent sound pressure levels, especially for bass, and will disturb others, especially for bass.

-Center Speaker - Of course it will hold 75-80% of the content in a movie soundtrack. However a quality pair of stereo speakers can create a "phantom center", so if you don't have the budget for a center, don't fret! It's better to get a great pair of stereo mains and save up for a good center later. I usually recommend great off-axis response and vocal clarity for a center.

-Surround Speakers - Surround speakers usually hold ambient information and can occasionally have panning effects. Very fun to have in a game situation, but overall not a worthwhile investment if you don't already have great mains. People often prefer dipole surrounds which give a spacious, diffuse effect but I don't consider it realistic. I prefer good old monopole speakers, that is, speakers that "fire forward" instead of two ways.

-Rear Speakers - Actually very useful IMO for a larger room, especially in matrixed 7.1 it will reduce the ability to localize the surround. Still, like the other other surrounds, not a worthwhile investment until you've got other pieces figured out.

All speakers should be able to reproduce content down to 70hz in order to blend seamlessly with a subwoofer in a room without

Oh. Almost forgot. My Budget is 500-1200 dollars. I am very adamant about getting the most bang for my buck and will shop around for weeks to get the best equipment at the best price
Infinity Primus P362 mains - $400 a pair from crutchfield
Marantz SR5004 Receiver - $389 from accessories4less (refurbished but reliable)
Monoprice cable
And a subwoofer. This decision will depend on your room so please elaborate. You say it's 14 x 10 but you didn't mention the height, or whether it's open to other areas or sealed. assuming it's a small room like that though, the Emotiva Ultra Sub 12, Epik Legend, and SVS SB10-NSD all seem like the ideal choice for you. Multiples if possible.

And later, as you add to the budget, you can throw in an Infinity PC351 center channel, some Behringer 2030A or 2030P surrounds, more subs, lots of acoustic paneling and bass traps, measurement equipment to know if your room acoustics are optimal, etc. It`s a long process but trust me, home theater is very much capable of being very good even on a budget. Getting the room right is arguably the most difficult step, because we already know that money can buy some absolutely amazing speakers!

As far as matching IMAX SQ, I bet you could do it if you keep your eyes glued to the used market. Just right now a fella has an entire 7.2 RBH T system for sale on the Audioholics classifieds for $7000... those speakers would probably wipe the floor with IMAX sound quality... the set would retail around $25000 and may be worth every penny
 
Last edited:
J

Juto

Audiophyte
To get amazing sound, the two most important factors are usually the speakers and the room itself. You then need to amplify them properly, and preamplify that properly, but "properly" depends on what speakers you end up with.



This is going to come as a bit of a surprise to you but a quality pair of stereo speakers will give you a more amazing experience then a mediocre 5.1 set, if we're talking about budget. I'd invest in some mains and a subwoofer.



Perfect. Then we don't have to worry about beating the BS out of you :D

There's only a few vocabulary you need to worry about

Soundstage and imaging - How wide does the sound feel, how tall does it feel, how deep does it feel, and where do individual sounds in a stereo recording come from? This is often attributed to room interaction as well as off-axis frequency response.

Tonality - Does it get the sound of something "right"? We search for neutrality here, and that's usually accompanied by a flat mid-range frequency response

Dynamics. Does it handle a very quiet passage with clarity, and can it shift to an extremely loud passage cleanly?

... that's about it... for now :D



Right here :D. For starters let's make a list of what you need in some sort of logical order

-Processor - This will decode high definition surround codecs and preamplify a signal for an amplifier. A receiver is part processor and part amplifier.

-Amplification - This will either be in your receiver to power passive loudspeakers, or built into your active loudspeakers.

-Wires - 14awg is usually a good choice of gauge. Monoprice is usually the go-to place although you sometimes have to do a slight bit of DIY with as far as connectors. Blue Jeans Cable is a good choice for completely ready-made wire.

-Front Speakers - A great pair of front speakers hold a ton of sonic information, and can either completely bring a soundtrack to life or make it dull and flat. In movies they usually hold a good deal of ambient information, background music, and dynamic special effects such as gun shots.

-Diffusion and absorption panels - The right balance of these things is key. If you don't get the room right, you could buy $20,000 speakers and have them sound "wrong". The goal is to take away reflections within the first 10ms but keep later reflections. This gives an enveloping soundstage.

-Subwoofer - A subwoofer holds a lot of "impact". It's not just there to add some one-note rumble... it brings to life an entire effects channel.. the .1 in 5.1! Over here we like to recommend multiple subwoofers because in a room, any given spot will be likely to have nulls as described below, and peaks. With multiple subwoofers we can have a move even bass response at different seating positions. Placement and subwoofer choice are very important. You must select a subwoofer based on how it will presumably interact with your specific room!

-Bass Traps - In a room, bass wavelengths are just too big, will reflect, and merge, and cancel. There will be too many peaks and valleys in response from 20hz to 500hz or so. With bass traps we can clean that up to an extent and really give definition to bass.

-Soundproofing - We don't want our sound to leave the home theater. That will reduce our own apparent sound pressure levels, especially for bass, and will disturb others, especially for bass.

-Center Speaker - Of course it will hold 75-80% of the content in a movie soundtrack. However a quality pair of stereo speakers can create a "phantom center", so if you don't have the budget for a center, don't fret! It's better to get a great pair of stereo mains and save up for a good center later. I usually recommend great off-axis response and vocal clarity for a center.

-Surround Speakers - Surround speakers usually hold ambient information and can occasionally have panning effects. Very fun to have in a game situation, but overall not a worthwhile investment if you don't already have great mains. People often prefer dipole surrounds which give a spacious, diffuse effect but I don't consider it realistic. I prefer good old monopole speakers, that is, speakers that "fire forward" instead of two ways.

-Rear Speakers - Actually very useful IMO for a larger room, especially in matrixed 7.1 it will reduce the ability to localize the surround. Still, like the other other surrounds, not a worthwhile investment until you've got other pieces figured out.

All speakers should be able to reproduce content down to 70hz in order to blend seamlessly with a subwoofer in a room without



Infinity Primus P362 mains - $400 a pair from crutchfield
Marantz SR5004 Receiver - $389 from accessories4less (refurbished but reliable)
Monoprice cable
And a subwoofer. This decision will depend on your room so please elaborate. You say it's 14 x 10 but you didn't mention the height, or whether it's open to other areas or sealed. assuming it's a small room like that though, the Emotiva Ultra Sub 12, Epik Legend, and SVS SB10-NSD all seem like the ideal choice for you. Multiples if possible.

And later, as you add to the budget, you can throw in an Infinity PC351 center channel, some Behringer 2030A or 2030P surrounds, more subs, lots of acoustic paneling and bass traps, measurement equipment to know if your room acoustics are optimal, etc. It`s a long process but trust me, home theater is very much capable of being very good even on a budget. Getting the room right is arguably the most difficult step, because we already know that money can buy some absolutely amazing speakers!

As far as matching IMAX SQ, I bet you could do it if you keep your eyes glued to the used market. Just right now a fella has an entire 7.2 RBH T system for sale on the Audioholics classifieds for $7000... those speakers would probably wipe the floor with IMAX sound quality... the set would retail around $25000 and may be worth every penny
Wow thanks for the thorough input haha. I will more then likely have to do a little research as some of the things said are still above my understanding of home theater knowledge haha.

But I do understand what you are saying. Buy good parts for the time being and then as I get more $ I can upgrade.

Also to answer your question about the room being open or closed. It has 3 openings. So its a fairly open room. One opening has a door which can be closed. But the other 2 are opening with no door. The height of the room is probably 10-12 feet.

I haven't really moved anything into the house so Im not sure how far the viewer will be sitting from the actual TV screen but it won't be more then 10-12 feet from the TV.

Again much thanks for the explanation and I will most likely be coming back to this thread as questions arise.
 
digicidal

digicidal

Full Audioholic
What is going on around here these days - we're under attack! :eek:

Seriously, it's getting pretty bad when they're spamming information on Christian Interracial Dating services... not that I think there's any problem with the concept - but talk about reaching out to a pretty small audience.

OK back on topic - I think trying to match IMAX in output and/or soundfield 'spaciousness' is not necessarily rational (although there are some on here that have probably come close to even SURPASSING it - at least I bet Warpdrv comes close in the bass department anyway). However, matching or exceeding IMAX in quality is entirely possible - and will have at least as much to do with room treatment and speaker placement as it will with electronics and the actual transducers selected.

Just my thoughts... pretty much Grant knows at least 500X more than me, as do many others on here - but from personal experience I can at least say the following:

If you can at least hear everything that's going on in the soundtrack / movie dialog - spending $1K-2K on dealing with the room itself will probably do more in listening satisfaction than spending the same amount on speakers will. However, maybe my speakers suck much less than I give them credit for - or my room is absolutely horrible... but just slapping rugs on the side walls as a temporary fix while shopping for speakers made me much, much happier in the interim. :)
 
J

Juto

Audiophyte
What is going on around here these days - we're under attack! :eek:

Seriously, it's getting pretty bad when they're spamming information on Christian Interracial Dating services... not that I think there's any problem with the concept - but talk about reaching out to a pretty small audience.

OK back on topic - I think trying to match IMAX in output and/or soundfield 'spaciousness' is not necessarily rational (although there are some on here that have probably come close to even SURPASSING it - at least I bet Warpdrv comes close in the bass department anyway). However, matching or exceeding IMAX in quality is entirely possible - and will have at least as much to do with room treatment and speaker placement as it will with electronics and the actual transducers selected.

Just my thoughts... pretty much Grant knows at least 500X more than me, as do many others on here - but from personal experience I can at least say the following:

If you can at least hear everything that's going on in the soundtrack / movie dialog - spending $1K-2K on dealing with the room itself will probably do more in listening satisfaction than spending the same amount on speakers will. However, maybe my speakers suck much less than I give them credit for - or my room is absolutely horrible... but just slapping rugs on the side walls as a temporary fix while shopping for speakers made me much, much happier in the interim. :)
Not sure what you are talking about haha.

Rugs on the wall for soundproofing?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Not sure what you are talking about haha.

Rugs on the wall for soundproofing?
I think the idea is to reduce first reflections, however, a rug isn't going to do too much. I mean, if you're going to cover sections of the wall, might as well use broadband absorption. The floor, see, acoustic panels might look pretty out of place there . . . and so people might use rugs etc to tame the room down a tad. (edit: the reason rugs/curtains only do so much, or why you have to be careful, is that they are only good at absorbing the HF, but do nothing for midbass or bass. This means that you've might have toned down the high end but the midbass is still all bloaty, masking all of your other important frequencies.)

You don't have to absorb the first reflections if you have speakers with fantastic offaxis response. See, the reflected information closely resembles the direct audio in this case. However, in most cases, the "angled" audio is not nearly as accurate as the "head on direct" stuff.

However, there are some experts that I trust who would say that if they had to name what the very top priority for SQ was, it would be listener position, even more so than speakers' position.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
(edit: the reason rugs/curtains only do so much, or why you have to be careful, is that they are only good at absorbing the HF, but do nothing for midbass or bass. This means that you've might have toned down the high end but the midbass is still all bloaty, masking all of your other important frequencies.)
A rug along won't do it, but 2-3 inches of owens corning 703 with a rug on top would work.

You don't have to absorb the first reflections if you have speakers with fantastic offaxis response. See, the reflected information closely resembles the direct audio in this case. However, in most cases, the "angled" audio is not nearly as accurate as the "head on direct" stuff.
Very true. Ideally a monopole would measure the same 90 degrees off axis as it does totally on axis so that reflections are completekly consistent, as long as you have room. I'
 
digicidal

digicidal

Full Audioholic
Not sure what you are talking about haha.

Rugs on the wall for soundproofing?
LOL! Yeah, it's a poor-man solution while I'm waiting for my panels to be printed and shipped (having custom printed absorption panels made). The rugs just helped take out some of the treble reflections - I have an exceptionally bright room area (at least as far as my side walls are concerned) and I currently have Polk RTI A's as my speakers which are very tipped up in the treble - so just adding something to the first reflection points made a big difference. I've also added some curtains to the back wall with insulation between them and the big window between the speakers which helped as well.

Thankfully the ceiling is one of the better aspects of the room as it's vaulted away from the speakers so ceiling reflections fall far behind the listening position for me.
 

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