New Home build/New AV Studio.

Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Any chance of you sharing your design/plans for this sub?
Based on my experience with the Phil3's TL is very good bass, and I have been wondering why there are not any TL subs out commonly getting accolades!
A simple internet search says there are no commercially available TL subs in the US. I suspect that's because the cabinetry is a lot more expensive and labor-consuming to produce than ported or sealed subs. It seems like Murphy-Salk could make one out of a modified version of the Phil3's bass section, if they felt like it.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
I'm still eager to pursue our conversation from earlier this year, too: I am very interested to learn more about how to design and build these for myself! :) (Was planning on letting you get situated before pestering you, though... but since KEW so graciously brought it up... :p )
Right now I'm just hoping to hear a "yes"!
I figure that would be followed up with a "give me a couple of months to wrap up construction first"!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
A simple internet search says there are no commercially available TL subs in the US. I suspect that's because the cabinetry is a lot more expensive and labor-consuming to produce than ported or sealed subs. It seems like Murphy-Salk could make one out of a modified version of the Phil3's bass section, if they felt like it.
I'm good with building my own! Just need someone to give me dimensions!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
A simple internet search says there are no commercially available TL subs in the US. I suspect that's because the cabinetry is a lot more expensive and labor-consuming to produce than ported or sealed subs. It seems like Murphy-Salk could make one out of a modified version of the Phil3's bass section, if they felt like it.
Those are mass loaded TLs and are significantly different from my designs. They are a pipe terminating in a Helmholtz resonator and not a pure Gedeckt pipe. There behavior is significantly different and behave much more like a reflex enclosure than the TLs I design. The impedance curves and rate of roll off below F3 are totally different.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Right now I'm just hoping to hear a "yes"!
I figure that would be followed up with a "give me a couple of months to wrap up construction first"!
As you know at the moment I'm very busy on multiple fronts.

I am not going to give the all the details as I do not have them. In due course I will publish all details here including measurements.

At the moment my AV room is full of boxes after the movers left on Monday. I have to organize the room before further construction can commence.

All will be revealed over the coming winter months.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
As you know at the moment I'm very busy on multiple fronts.
I am not going to give the all the details as I do not have them yet. In due course I will publish all details here including measurements.

At the moment my AV room is full of boxes after the movers left on Monday. I have to organize the room before further construction can commence.

All will be revealed over the coming winter months.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Mark, I have to warn you. There's someone living inside your walls.
1571296284916.png


I reccomend burning some incense and letting smoke inside to drive him out.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for the link, I'll look it over, but I am not in a rush and I'd like to see info for TLS Guys actual build. The link does a pretty good job of modelling what is expected, but I did not see indication that they actually built and measured it. Also, I wonder about a TL sub with a 12" driver that rolls-off starting at 50Hz, -7dB for 40Hz, and -17dB at 30Hz.
That seems pretty poor compared to the Phil3, which plays down to 25Hz (+/-2dB) using an 8" driver!
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the link, I'll look it over, but I am not in a rush and I'd like to see info for TLS Guys actual build. The link does a pretty good job of modelling what is expected, but I did not see indication that they actually built and measured it. Also, I wonder about a TL sub with a 12" driver that rolls-off starting at 50Hz, -7dB for 40Hz, and -17dB at 30Hz.
That seems pretty poor compared to the Phil3, which plays down to 25Hz (+/-2dB) using an 8" driver!
Wouldn't the TL he is building be 6db an octave roll off untill the tuning of the line is reached?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Some would call that speaker design Rear-Horn Loaded because the driver is at the closed end of the line. Many current definitions of TLs account for the driver being placed along the length of the line... some say halfway, but most I've seen indications that placing the driver about 1/3 the length is better for the inherent damping of the 3rd harmonic If using 2 matching drivers, the second one would be centered about a fifth of the way, if I understand, and do the same thing by damping the fifth harmonic. (The other odd harmonics are more easily damped by stuffing the line).
The Phil 3, being a mass loaded line, has the terminus port at the end of the line. The 8" Scan Speak Revelator is positioned about a third of the length of the line: it is folded and straight, not tapered or flared.
I cannot speak about how mass loading actually works. There is chatter about exactly what Mark wrote, that the port terminus changes the way the line performs.
It is still delicious!
:)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Do not use that article to design a line. It is total rubbish and highly inaccurate.

The reason the line in the article in question does not go that low is because the Fs of the driver is 39 Hz and therefore not suitable as sub driver.

The only model I know that agrees with the build every time is the model of G.L. Augspurger. I have the last version of his software. TLwrx Version 3.1 He published this in 2008. The first edition was 2000 but the final version is the real deal.

Unfortunately I have lost contact with him. His software does not seem to be available at this time. Without getting his permission I do not feel comfortable making it available.

For all other models you had to rely on experience and results were hit and miss. I know his model to produce reliable results and I think it is the only one that is.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Those are mass loaded TLs and are significantly different from my designs. They are a pipe terminating in a Helmholtz resonator and not a pure Gedeckt pipe. There behavior is significantly different and behave much more like a reflex enclosure than the TLs I design. The impedance curves and rate of roll off below F3 are totally different.
You've explained this before. I brought up the Phil3 mainly because the measurements show that its bass section produces very linear response and good output for a single 8" driver to about 25Hz, and because it is (or was) a commercially viable product. I was going to order a pair of Phil3s for my HT room, but Dennis left the business before I got a chance.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Do not use that article to design a line. It is total rubbish and highly inaccurate.

The reason the line in the article in question does not go that low is because the Fs of the driver is 39 Hz and therefore not suitable as sub driver.

The only model I know that agrees with the build every time is the model of G.L. Augspurger. I have the last version of his software. TLwrx Version 3.1 He published this in 2008. The first edition was 2000 but the final version is the real deal.

Unfortunately I have lost contact with him. His software does not seem to be available at this time. Without getting his permission I do not feel comfortable making it available.

For all other models you had to rely on experience and results were hit and miss. I know his model to produce reliable results and I think it is the only one that is.
This doesn't bode well for TL designs in general.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
We have been moved in for 12 days now.

The lower great room in wall system is up and running. One item remains. The metal trim for the equipment cabinets is at the powder shop and I should have it within a week.

These are the pictures.





The left cabinet contains a Marantz AV 7701, APC 1500 KVA UPS Panasonic BD player, Intel NUC, Internet hub and Comcast remote unit. The right cabinet contains two Quad 909 Power amps. The top for the left and right speakers, the lower one for the center and sub. That cabinet also contains the passive crossovers. Tech tubes connect the cabinets, and on the left tech tubes bring in FM, Ethernet and Comcast TV.

There are four fans two in each case. There are two thermometers in each case. The fans are variable speed and set to come on at 50 C and alarm at 60C. So far the fans have not come on. The control head can be seen between the left speakers and center speaker.

The TV is the 65" Panny plasma from the AV room at the lake.

The white grill by the right equipment case is the port for the TL sub.

For the left ad right speakers the tweeter is a Scanspeak D2608/9130 1" soft dome. The bass mids are Morel 6" CAW 638s. Each with an DIN power handling of 150 watts, 1000 watts for 10 m/sec. Each is in its isolated sealed enclosure, so one can not drive the other. This is a problem in sealed boxes with more than one driver. Crossover is at 2.5 KHz.

The center uses the same bass mids and the Morel EM 428 Elite Midrange. 150 watts DIN and 800 watts for 10 m/sec.

The tweeter is the Eton 19SD-1 3/4" soft dome. This is an exact copy of the old Dynaudio D 21 AF, which is one of my favorite tweeters of all time. Unfortunately this is NLA. However I thunk the circuit could easily be changed to take the 3/4" Hiquaphon tweeter.

The bass drivers are in their own compartments and the mid tweeter is in its own compartment.

Crossovers are at 400 Hz and 3.8 KHz. So the mid is handling the whole speech discrimination band with crossovers either side of it.

The sub driver is the Dayton RSS265HF-4 10".

Loading is aperiodic TL. F3 is 27 Hz with 12 db per octave roll off. So it is 6 to 7 db down at 20 Hz by calculation without room gain.

Measurements will follow in about 3 to 4 weeks once the AV room is built out.

Current listening impressions are very favorable. My wife who claims this as her system is thrilled with it.

I hope to make rapid progress on the AV theater build out in the next couple of weeks or so. Driver reinstall has now started. The build out and wiring of the racks will follow. The foundation infrastructure is nearly complete.

I will update as appropriate.

The family room system is also functional at this time.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Things are starting to come together.

Trim out is now finished on the in wall system. Two final pieces of trim were added today. My wife is over the moon with it, especially now I have her ipod connected to the system. I'm barely allowed to touch it now!

This is the last picture I have, but before the last couple of pieces of trim.



This "little" system easily fills this large space open to the stairway to the second floor. The sound is very even throughout the space. It has really good coverage. This is true especially for the bass. The 10" TL sub has good even coverage through out the space. There seem to be zero low or high spots, and even the boom and bang movies do very well. The sub seems very efficient. In fact I was having trouble with too much bass. Audyssey has set the crossover point at 40 Hz to the sub. Strangely this does sound to be optimal, even though the F3 of the three speakers is 83 Hz, 12 db per octave roll of. I suspect this is occurring for two reasons. First stacking wall reflections as this is an in wall system with no protrusions beyond the plane of the wall. Secondly because of band pass issues with the center woofers. Crossover to the mid of the center speaker is 400 Hz. This gives the woofers a range of a little over 3 octaves, which is optimal for controlling band pass gain issues.

This has made me realize, that in this day of subs, three way speakers are a problem in the event there is a low crossover point below 400 Hz. If there is then when these speakers are going to have serious band pass issues and uneven bass response when used with a sub. I now feel three or four way speakers with a low crossover below 400 Hz to the mid are NOT suitable for use with conventional subs

There is another issue I have come to realize with mixing two way mains and three way centers and vice versa. In a three way with the cross to the mid is likely to require a second order electrical crossover in the woofer active pass band. So the best response is likely to be with a phase reversal at crossover. This center speaker modeled best the reverse phase to the mid. That was the way it was originally installed. However there were severe integration issues with the right and left speakers which do not have a phase reversal. So at the crossover points at 400 and 4 kHz the speakers phased correctly, but were out of phase with the right and left speakers throughout most of the pass band of the center mid driver. This resulted in really poor integration of the three speakers, with marked change in sound with changing position. So I cancelled the phase reversal of the mid, and found it far better to accept slight null at the crossover points than have the center mid out of phase with the right and left speakers over most of their pass band.

So the bottom line is that if you have three way mains with two way center or vice versa, there is a high probability that you have a severe compatibility problem resulting is severe degrading of sound quality. I had never considered this issue before, but I'm now certain there are systems out there severely compromised by it.

The two channel family room system has been up and running for a while. However the room is next door and being used as a staging area for the studio build and therefore a relative mess.

The new AV room/studio is now starting to come alive, and I'm listening to it now.

It is quite a task, I had to reinstall 28 drivers and install four new ceiling speaker for 32 drivers in all. At the amp end this resulted in 40 individual wire terminations.

This is the front speaker terminal block. The speaker runs in conduit are 10 AWG Belden.



The rear group terminal.





There is 600 ft of 10 AWG speaker cable in the system.

Some views of the construction of the amp case. This is what 18 power amp channels able to deliver 3.9 KW of audio power all channels driven looks like.





The new LG 77" OLED TV is up and running is superb. The rebuilt HTPC for 4K is up and running.

The new Panasonic BD player is set up as well as the 4K 7705 Marantz pre/pro.

The three AV racks are now populated, with Comcast and the disc players on line in addition to the HTPC. Grounding appears good as the system is very quiet.

The first AV rack and power amp case, also the TV are fully functional. The analog equipment, DAW and turntable case remain to come on line.

I hope to have this complete some time next week, and trim out started if not complete and the parts sent for finishing. Hopefully the system will be complete in a couple of weeks or so.

After 8 months, I had forgotten just how superb this speaker system really is. In this significantly larger space the speakers are shinning better than before. Bass now seems totally uniform through out the space.

So I'm looking forward to a winter of great music.

This continues to be a massive undertaking.

On a personal note, my wife and I were married 50 years ago today and we will have a celebration for family and close friends tomorrow.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Spartan
That looks so good. I love your work, doc. If I'm ever in your area I'm inviting myself over so I can hear it in person!

Congratulations on 50 years of marriage! I'm not even half way there at 21 years now!
 

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