AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 17, 2022 #41 PENG said: In this case though the example AVR10 used did show THD much higher than 0.01% Click to expand... Ouch! Well, I don’t think he preferred the Arcam for the much higher than 0.01% THD. I think it comes down to the SETUP.
PENG said: In this case though the example AVR10 used did show THD much higher than 0.01% Click to expand... Ouch! Well, I don’t think he preferred the Arcam for the much higher than 0.01% THD. I think it comes down to the SETUP.
P PENG Audioholic Slumlord Oct 23, 2004 19,797 0 113 Ontario Nov 17, 2022 #42 AcuDefTechGuy said: Ouch! Well, I don’t think he preferred the Arcam for the much higher than 0.01% THD. I think it comes down to the SETUP. Click to expand... Could well be the case, only he knows. There are certainly other factors, distortions is just one, that may not matter at all in this case. I am just using the AVR10 as an example. 0.01% is not an audible issue for me if it is the worst case under the worst conditions. I am also saying that harmonic distortions can sound good to a lot of people. Also, his is the AVR11 that has no available test data yet. Reactions: lovinthehd
AcuDefTechGuy said: Ouch! Well, I don’t think he preferred the Arcam for the much higher than 0.01% THD. I think it comes down to the SETUP. Click to expand... Could well be the case, only he knows. There are certainly other factors, distortions is just one, that may not matter at all in this case. I am just using the AVR10 as an example. 0.01% is not an audible issue for me if it is the worst case under the worst conditions. I am also saying that harmonic distortions can sound good to a lot of people. Also, his is the AVR11 that has no available test data yet.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 17, 2022 #43 PENG said: Could well be the case, only he knows. There are certainly other factors, distortions is just one, that may not matter at all in this case. I am just using the AVR10 as an example. 0.01% is not an audible issue for me if it is the worst case under the worst conditions. I am also saying that harmonic distortions can sound good to a lot of people. Also, his is the AVR11 that has no available test data yet. Click to expand... I think the bottom line for most of us here is that we've seen SO MANY examples of people saying that their NEW AVR's sound so much better than their OLD AVR's, even in Direct Mode, Level Matched and all that. So it's like "been there, done that". Reactions: lovinthehd
PENG said: Could well be the case, only he knows. There are certainly other factors, distortions is just one, that may not matter at all in this case. I am just using the AVR10 as an example. 0.01% is not an audible issue for me if it is the worst case under the worst conditions. I am also saying that harmonic distortions can sound good to a lot of people. Also, his is the AVR11 that has no available test data yet. Click to expand... I think the bottom line for most of us here is that we've seen SO MANY examples of people saying that their NEW AVR's sound so much better than their OLD AVR's, even in Direct Mode, Level Matched and all that. So it's like "been there, done that".
jonmartin84 Enthusiast Oct 21, 2022 16 0 1 41 Nov 17, 2022 #44 AcuDefTechGuy said: I think the bottom line for most of us here is that we've seen SO MANY examples of people saying that their NEW AVR's sound so much better than their OLD AVR's, even in Direct Mode, Level Matched and all that. So it's like "been there, done that". Click to expand... So many assumptions it tickles. Wouldn't the logic apply that the Cinema 50 is a newer receiver from a manufacture known to have less issues than Arcam and although I was mostly happy with the unit and could've just as well kept using it and never bothered with the Arcam and its quirks at all. FYI the only reason I obtained the Arcam is because I had ordered the Marantz cinema 50 and thought it was going to take a while I ordered the Arcam to play with in the meantime but it came much sooner than expected and I ended up being in possession of both. I could've easily just sold off the Arcam like I did the Cinema 50 if I felt it was better for my needs and sounded better but it didn't, so your whole assumption goes out the window.
AcuDefTechGuy said: I think the bottom line for most of us here is that we've seen SO MANY examples of people saying that their NEW AVR's sound so much better than their OLD AVR's, even in Direct Mode, Level Matched and all that. So it's like "been there, done that". Click to expand... So many assumptions it tickles. Wouldn't the logic apply that the Cinema 50 is a newer receiver from a manufacture known to have less issues than Arcam and although I was mostly happy with the unit and could've just as well kept using it and never bothered with the Arcam and its quirks at all. FYI the only reason I obtained the Arcam is because I had ordered the Marantz cinema 50 and thought it was going to take a while I ordered the Arcam to play with in the meantime but it came much sooner than expected and I ended up being in possession of both. I could've easily just sold off the Arcam like I did the Cinema 50 if I felt it was better for my needs and sounded better but it didn't, so your whole assumption goes out the window.
jonmartin84 Enthusiast Oct 21, 2022 16 0 1 41 Nov 17, 2022 #45 PENG said: Could well be the case, only he knows. There are certainly other factors, distortions is just one, that may not matter at all in this case. I am just using the AVR10 as an example. 0.01% is not an audible issue for me if it is the worst case under the worst conditions. I am also saying that harmonic distortions can sound good to a lot of people. Also, his is the AVR11 that has no available test data yet. Click to expand... Like I said before I could've used the information in that thread and ignored the Arcam but I didn't and I'm more than happy with its sound. We can go back and forth all day about it with as many charts and graphs and still doesn't change the fact it sounds better to me. As you said yourself you're talking about a different unit with different firmware possibly even malfunctioning or not setup properly. I was going to send both the Cinema 50 and AVR11 out to Amir but I got banned for voicing my opinion by the children running the board so I guess we'll never know until maybe he being a dealer ask for a unit himself to test. As it stands I'm still recommending the OP buy an Arcam for himself and make his own judgments I'm done with this thread jack.
PENG said: Could well be the case, only he knows. There are certainly other factors, distortions is just one, that may not matter at all in this case. I am just using the AVR10 as an example. 0.01% is not an audible issue for me if it is the worst case under the worst conditions. I am also saying that harmonic distortions can sound good to a lot of people. Also, his is the AVR11 that has no available test data yet. Click to expand... Like I said before I could've used the information in that thread and ignored the Arcam but I didn't and I'm more than happy with its sound. We can go back and forth all day about it with as many charts and graphs and still doesn't change the fact it sounds better to me. As you said yourself you're talking about a different unit with different firmware possibly even malfunctioning or not setup properly. I was going to send both the Cinema 50 and AVR11 out to Amir but I got banned for voicing my opinion by the children running the board so I guess we'll never know until maybe he being a dealer ask for a unit himself to test. As it stands I'm still recommending the OP buy an Arcam for himself and make his own judgments I'm done with this thread jack.
lovinthehd Audioholic Jedi Sep 11, 2012 44,872 0 113 Oakridge, OR Nov 17, 2022 #46 @jonmartin84 still, a preference by someone isn't all that interesting, it goes both ways, like Peng's example of someone who wouldn't go back to Arcam. Personally I find them all (all brands) far more similar outside of specific dsp flavors/capabilities...and wouldn't bother just "listening" to various makes/models before buying one. Glad you like yours in any case. Reactions: PENG and AcuDefTechGuy
@jonmartin84 still, a preference by someone isn't all that interesting, it goes both ways, like Peng's example of someone who wouldn't go back to Arcam. Personally I find them all (all brands) far more similar outside of specific dsp flavors/capabilities...and wouldn't bother just "listening" to various makes/models before buying one. Glad you like yours in any case.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 17, 2022 #47 jonmartin84 said: So many assumptions it tickles. Wouldn't the logic apply that the Cinema 50 is a newer receiver from a manufacture known to have less issues than Arcam and although I was mostly happy with the unit and could've just as well kept using it and never bothered with the Arcam and its quirks at all. FYI the only reason I obtained the Arcam is because I had ordered the Marantz cinema 50 and thought it was going to take a while I ordered the Arcam to play with in the meantime but it came much sooner than expected and I ended up being in possession of both. I could've easily just sold off the Arcam like I did the Cinema 50 if I felt it was better for my needs and sounded better but it didn't, so your whole assumption goes out the window. Click to expand... It’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that there have been many cases of people owning or buying an AVR and then buying or owning another AVR and making the same observation as you do - saying brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. When I saw “New” or “Old”, I meant in order that you got them, not the year they were released. But that’s not really the point. For many of us, it’s about proven double-blinded studies, not some subjective opinions and hearsay like “this component sounds much better even though it has much worse THD+N“. Yes, everyone should audition as many components as possible. Whatever you prefer is just your subjective opinion, which is what everyone has been saying. So it’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that many people have said brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. Last edited: Nov 17, 2022 Reactions: PENG
jonmartin84 said: So many assumptions it tickles. Wouldn't the logic apply that the Cinema 50 is a newer receiver from a manufacture known to have less issues than Arcam and although I was mostly happy with the unit and could've just as well kept using it and never bothered with the Arcam and its quirks at all. FYI the only reason I obtained the Arcam is because I had ordered the Marantz cinema 50 and thought it was going to take a while I ordered the Arcam to play with in the meantime but it came much sooner than expected and I ended up being in possession of both. I could've easily just sold off the Arcam like I did the Cinema 50 if I felt it was better for my needs and sounded better but it didn't, so your whole assumption goes out the window. Click to expand... It’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that there have been many cases of people owning or buying an AVR and then buying or owning another AVR and making the same observation as you do - saying brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. When I saw “New” or “Old”, I meant in order that you got them, not the year they were released. But that’s not really the point. For many of us, it’s about proven double-blinded studies, not some subjective opinions and hearsay like “this component sounds much better even though it has much worse THD+N“. Yes, everyone should audition as many components as possible. Whatever you prefer is just your subjective opinion, which is what everyone has been saying. So it’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that many people have said brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 17, 2022 #48 lovinthehd said: @jonmartin84 still, a preference by someone isn't all that interesting, it goes both ways, like Peng's example of someone who wouldn't go back to Arcam. Personally I find them all (all brands) far more similar outside of specific dsp flavors/capabilities...and wouldn't bother just "listening" to various makes/models before buying one. Glad you like yours in any case. Click to expand... Exactly. I think we’re all telling him the same message, but different wordings. Reactions: lovinthehd
lovinthehd said: @jonmartin84 still, a preference by someone isn't all that interesting, it goes both ways, like Peng's example of someone who wouldn't go back to Arcam. Personally I find them all (all brands) far more similar outside of specific dsp flavors/capabilities...and wouldn't bother just "listening" to various makes/models before buying one. Glad you like yours in any case. Click to expand... Exactly. I think we’re all telling him the same message, but different wordings.
lovinthehd Audioholic Jedi Sep 11, 2012 44,872 0 113 Oakridge, OR Nov 17, 2022 #49 AcuDefTechGuy said: Exactly. I think we’re all telling him the same message, but different wordings. Click to expand... Just somewhat annoying for a "dealer" altho if you want to put it in terms of a drug dealer, makes more sense.... ps no, not to do with yours, sorry, wasn't thinking of your practice at all....altho sometimes I have Reactions: PENG and AcuDefTechGuy
AcuDefTechGuy said: Exactly. I think we’re all telling him the same message, but different wordings. Click to expand... Just somewhat annoying for a "dealer" altho if you want to put it in terms of a drug dealer, makes more sense.... ps no, not to do with yours, sorry, wasn't thinking of your practice at all....altho sometimes I have
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 17, 2022 #50 lovinthehd said: Just somewhat annoying for a "dealer" altho if you want to put it in terms of a drug dealer, makes more sense.... ps no, not to do with yours, sorry, wasn't thinking of your practice at all....altho sometimes I have Click to expand... I thought about being a drug dealer - mail order pharmacy that is. But probably too much headaches. Easier just to work for a hospital pharmacy. Reactions: lovinthehd
lovinthehd said: Just somewhat annoying for a "dealer" altho if you want to put it in terms of a drug dealer, makes more sense.... ps no, not to do with yours, sorry, wasn't thinking of your practice at all....altho sometimes I have Click to expand... I thought about being a drug dealer - mail order pharmacy that is. But probably too much headaches. Easier just to work for a hospital pharmacy.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 17, 2022 #51 jonmartin84 said: I'm done with this thread jack. Click to expand... Just one more question before you leave - does every AVR, AVP, Preamp, DAC, Amp have a sound signature of its own - all sound very differently even in Direct Mode and Level Matched?
jonmartin84 said: I'm done with this thread jack. Click to expand... Just one more question before you leave - does every AVR, AVP, Preamp, DAC, Amp have a sound signature of its own - all sound very differently even in Direct Mode and Level Matched?
lovinthehd Audioholic Jedi Sep 11, 2012 44,872 0 113 Oakridge, OR Nov 17, 2022 #52 AcuDefTechGuy said: I thought about being a drug dealer - mail order pharmacy that is. But probably too much headaches. Easier just to work for a hospital pharmacy. Click to expand... Most of the issues I know with people and drugs are prescribed ones, but I know you're a generally good guy, thanks. Reactions: AcuDefTechGuy and PENG
AcuDefTechGuy said: I thought about being a drug dealer - mail order pharmacy that is. But probably too much headaches. Easier just to work for a hospital pharmacy. Click to expand... Most of the issues I know with people and drugs are prescribed ones, but I know you're a generally good guy, thanks.
jonmartin84 Enthusiast Oct 21, 2022 16 0 1 41 Nov 17, 2022 #53 AcuDefTechGuy said: It’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that there have been many cases of people owning or buying an AVR and then buying or owning another AVR and making the same observation as you do - saying brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. When I saw “New” or “Old”, I meant in order that you got them, not the year they were released. But that’s not really the point. For many of us, it’s about proven double-blinded studies, not some subjective opinions and hearsay like “this component sounds much better even though it has much worse THD+N“. Yes, everyone should audition as many components as possible. Whatever you prefer is just your subjective opinion, which is what everyone has been saying. So it’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that many people have said brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. Click to expand... You're saying that while literally looking at data from a different piece of equipment if we're going to look at OLD graphs from different hardware might as well look at the newer better measurements from other similar JBL/ARCAM gear using the similar architecture and same firmware at least. I have no idea what the AVR10 measurements from 2.5 years ago have to do with my post about the AVR11 this whole discussion really has me laughing. "But mah science" right?
AcuDefTechGuy said: It’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that there have been many cases of people owning or buying an AVR and then buying or owning another AVR and making the same observation as you do - saying brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. When I saw “New” or “Old”, I meant in order that you got them, not the year they were released. But that’s not really the point. For many of us, it’s about proven double-blinded studies, not some subjective opinions and hearsay like “this component sounds much better even though it has much worse THD+N“. Yes, everyone should audition as many components as possible. Whatever you prefer is just your subjective opinion, which is what everyone has been saying. So it’s not an assumption. It’s a fact that many people have said brand X sounds better than brand Y and vice versa. Click to expand... You're saying that while literally looking at data from a different piece of equipment if we're going to look at OLD graphs from different hardware might as well look at the newer better measurements from other similar JBL/ARCAM gear using the similar architecture and same firmware at least. I have no idea what the AVR10 measurements from 2.5 years ago have to do with my post about the AVR11 this whole discussion really has me laughing. "But mah science" right?
T Trebdp83 Audioholic Spartan Oct 27, 2009 5,805 0 36 Nov 18, 2022 #54 NDyse10 said: Fellow Audioholics, Been a long time since I posted/lurked here but I am back (with a larger budget!). I have some outdated gear and I'm ready to start upgrading. First on my list is an updated receiver as I'm working with a model not able to even do 4K passthrough. Current Setup: 5.1 Marantz SR5005 Definitive Technology Mythos STS Towers Definitive Technology Mythos Seven Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800 SVS PB-12 NSD My budget is roughly $2000 but willing to go above if it will further future proof me or is a significant increase in quality. This will be for multimedia use. Gaming with Ps5, surround sound and music. I likely will not be adding more speakers or incorporate Atmos so I'm really going for sound quality and being futureproofed. I have also heard great things about Dirac Live so have been favoring that functionality (or ability to upgrade). I'd say my largest questions center around how much power I need and how important Dirac Live is. My receiver short list sits at: Arcam AVR5 Anthem MRX540 Denon AVR3800H Yamaha A4A Yamaha A2A Onkyo RZ50 Denon S970H (budget option) Would love to hear your recommendations! Click to expand... Arcam AVR5 doesn’t support 4K @120Hz, so it’s out. Yamaha A2A not much better as it supports HDMI 2.1 but only at 24Gbps, so it is also out. If running 5.1 and wanting to use height virtualization for Dolby Atmos/Dolby Surround AND DTS:X/Virtual:X, Anthem and Yamaha do not support DTS Virtual:X so the Anthem MRX540 and Yamaha A4A are out. Denon S970H no DIRAC yet and no Audyssey XT32 so it’s out. That leaves Onkyo RZ50, with DIRAC now, and Denon X3800, DIRAC on the way and Audyssey XT32 now. Onkyo has some quirky HDMI specs while Denon has some quirky upmixing specs. If staying with 5.1 and have no need for pre outs, might check out the Onkyo TX-NR7100. Still, Denon X3800 shares DNA with the Marantz and will be the most familiar and perhaps easiest to setup. But, hate this new trend of future firmware update features promises. Whatever you choose, enjoy!
NDyse10 said: Fellow Audioholics, Been a long time since I posted/lurked here but I am back (with a larger budget!). I have some outdated gear and I'm ready to start upgrading. First on my list is an updated receiver as I'm working with a model not able to even do 4K passthrough. Current Setup: 5.1 Marantz SR5005 Definitive Technology Mythos STS Towers Definitive Technology Mythos Seven Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800 SVS PB-12 NSD My budget is roughly $2000 but willing to go above if it will further future proof me or is a significant increase in quality. This will be for multimedia use. Gaming with Ps5, surround sound and music. I likely will not be adding more speakers or incorporate Atmos so I'm really going for sound quality and being futureproofed. I have also heard great things about Dirac Live so have been favoring that functionality (or ability to upgrade). I'd say my largest questions center around how much power I need and how important Dirac Live is. My receiver short list sits at: Arcam AVR5 Anthem MRX540 Denon AVR3800H Yamaha A4A Yamaha A2A Onkyo RZ50 Denon S970H (budget option) Would love to hear your recommendations! Click to expand... Arcam AVR5 doesn’t support 4K @120Hz, so it’s out. Yamaha A2A not much better as it supports HDMI 2.1 but only at 24Gbps, so it is also out. If running 5.1 and wanting to use height virtualization for Dolby Atmos/Dolby Surround AND DTS:X/Virtual:X, Anthem and Yamaha do not support DTS Virtual:X so the Anthem MRX540 and Yamaha A4A are out. Denon S970H no DIRAC yet and no Audyssey XT32 so it’s out. That leaves Onkyo RZ50, with DIRAC now, and Denon X3800, DIRAC on the way and Audyssey XT32 now. Onkyo has some quirky HDMI specs while Denon has some quirky upmixing specs. If staying with 5.1 and have no need for pre outs, might check out the Onkyo TX-NR7100. Still, Denon X3800 shares DNA with the Marantz and will be the most familiar and perhaps easiest to setup. But, hate this new trend of future firmware update features promises. Whatever you choose, enjoy!
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,058 0 113 Nov 18, 2022 #55 jonmartin84 said: You're saying that while literally looking at data from a different piece of equipment if we're going to look at OLD graphs from different hardware might as well look at the newer better measurements from other similar JBL/ARCAM gear using the similar architecture and same firmware at least. I have no idea what the AVR10 measurements from 2.5 years ago have to do with my post about the AVR11 this whole discussion really has me laughing. "But mah science" right? Click to expand... Whether the THD is 0.01% or 0.001% or 0.0001%, it is all inaudible. You can prefer one AVR, AVP or one Amp over another one. People need to realize that it’s just your personal preference. Other people can easily have the opposite preference. The point is not that the Arcam measured worse. The point is that it is not any better or that it is inaudible. For many years some people have been saying that “separates“ sounded better than AVR. The measurements show that these numbers are inaudible. So separates can have worse or better or the same measurements, but the point is that it is inaudible. So does every AVR, AVP, Preamp, DAC, Amp have a sound signature of its own - all sound very differently even in Direct Mode and Level Matched? Last edited: Nov 18, 2022 Reactions: PENG
jonmartin84 said: You're saying that while literally looking at data from a different piece of equipment if we're going to look at OLD graphs from different hardware might as well look at the newer better measurements from other similar JBL/ARCAM gear using the similar architecture and same firmware at least. I have no idea what the AVR10 measurements from 2.5 years ago have to do with my post about the AVR11 this whole discussion really has me laughing. "But mah science" right? Click to expand... Whether the THD is 0.01% or 0.001% or 0.0001%, it is all inaudible. You can prefer one AVR, AVP or one Amp over another one. People need to realize that it’s just your personal preference. Other people can easily have the opposite preference. The point is not that the Arcam measured worse. The point is that it is not any better or that it is inaudible. For many years some people have been saying that “separates“ sounded better than AVR. The measurements show that these numbers are inaudible. So separates can have worse or better or the same measurements, but the point is that it is inaudible. So does every AVR, AVP, Preamp, DAC, Amp have a sound signature of its own - all sound very differently even in Direct Mode and Level Matched?
