New A/V Receiver Help!

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yea, I've seen that thread and had I made a purchase decision purely based on the information I wouldn't even consider the Arcam and unfortunately I'm sure most don't because of that thread, however I do things differently. I'm glad I gave the Arcam a chance I'm not here to debate anyone on the topic but just sharing my experience. Amir's "reviews" are somewhat useful but in the end doesn't tell you much there's alot of other important factors that matter that aren't even considered and considering he spends very little time with the gear vs someone like me who spends much more time I'll go with my opinion over his.

For example everyone on that forum seems to think the Denon 3700h is the greatest AVR available at just about any price point based on his data and I'll simply laugh at that considering I have both available on hand and he has to borrow them from strangers. Most of the people on the boards haven't heard either and yet have made an opinion and thats even more laughable. Also there been discussion about his methods not being useful because his test methods and standards seem to change on the fly. This also isn't one of those "I like it more because I spent more" type of situations because I'm in the industry and don't pay retail for anything.
It‘s probably one of those “It costs $500 more than the Marantz, and a lot less people own Arcam vs Marantz/Denon/Yamaha, and plus I spent a lot of time and energy on this, so it must be better because I don’t want to spend more time and money because I’m tired“. :D

There are many factors.

Are you claiming that the Room Correction of the Arcam is better or that the Arcam just sounds better because the amp inside the Arcam has a better sound signature In Direct mode?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yea, I've seen that thread and had I made a purchase decision purely based on the information I wouldn't even consider the Arcam and unfortunately I'm sure most don't because of that thread, however I do things differently. I'm glad I gave the Arcam a chance I'm not here to debate anyone on the topic but just sharing my experience. Amir's "reviews" are somewhat useful but in the end doesn't tell you much there's alot of other important factors that matter that aren't even considered and considering he spends very little time with the gear vs someone like me who spends much more time I'll go with my opinion over his.

For example everyone on that forum seems to think the Denon 3700h is the greatest AVR available at just about any price point based on his data and I'll simply laugh at that considering I have both available on hand and he has to borrow them from strangers. Most of the people on the boards haven't heard either and yet have made an opinion and thats even more laughable. Also there been discussion about his methods not being useful because his test methods and standards seem to change on the fly. This also isn't one of those "I like it more because I spent more" type of situations because I'm in the industry and don't pay retail for anything.
How do you particularly "hear" an avr and all its functionality let alone compare it to another one? How did you do it?
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic
I think I’ve heard someone say, “I sold my Arcam and got a Bose system and I’m never going back!” :D

People say something like that all the time. I sold X and got Y, and now and Y is so much better. Blah, blah, blah.

Internet hearsay and bias ALL DAY LONG. :D

I suppose it’s human nature to JUSTIFY everything we do, especially since we invest so much money and time.
Confirmation Bias
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
It‘s probably one of those “It costs $500 more than the Marantz, and a lot less people own Arcam vs Marantz/Denon/Yamaha, and plus I spent a lot of time and energy on this, so it must be better because I don’t want to spend more time and money because I’m tired“. :D

There are many factors.

Are you claiming that the Room Correction of the Arcam is better or that the Arcam just sounds better because the amp inside the Arcam has a better sound signature In Direct mode?
The Arcam's run Dirac Room EQ....
 
jonmartin84

jonmartin84

Enthusiast
It‘s probably one of those “It costs $500 more than the Marantz, and a lot less people own Arcam vs Marantz/Denon/Yamaha, and plus I spent a lot of time and energy on this, so it must be better because I don’t want to spend more time and money because I’m tired“. :D

There are many factors.

Are you claiming that the Room Correction of the Arcam is better or that the Arcam just sounds better because the amp inside the Arcam has a better sound signature In Direct mode?
Yep many factors. Measurements don't tell you how something is going to sound in your room with your sources, speakers etc.

I'm talking about the sound of the unit out of the box with just the level matching and distances set with and without the external amps I have. I haven't spent enough time with Dirac I've spent plenty of time with the different Audyssey iterations in the past and it sounded fine but I'm at the point where I'm happy with the Arcam as it sits without room correction. If anything I'll just enable Dirac and limit it to the bass region at some point and leave it at that. Can't say the same for the Marantz or Denon in the past they did the job and sounded good enough had I not tried the Arcam but I almost always had Audyssey on and working to get the sound I wanted. Again cost wasn't a factor in this decision if anything I got the Arcam cheaper then I got the Marantz by a few dollars.

I'll be selling the Denon soon as I don't have a need for it.
 
jonmartin84

jonmartin84

Enthusiast
How do you particularly "hear" an avr and all its functionality let alone compare it to another one? How did you do it?
Buy them both and find out for yourself just like I did. Set them up properly and compare on your own.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Buy them both and find out for yourself just like I did. Set them up properly and compare on your own.
That part's easy enough, how did you do it particularly tho so you could do a proper comparison? Pretty difficult and anecdotal info outside of a good trial is just not that interesting. You have a preference, that's great for you. I wouldn't necessarily trust your taste in anything without knowing you particularly well....
 
jonmartin84

jonmartin84

Enthusiast
That part's easy enough, how did you do it particularly tho so you could do a proper comparison? Pretty difficult and anecdotal info outside of a good trial is just not that interesting. You have a preference, that's great for you. I wouldn't necessarily trust your taste in anything without knowing you particularly well....
You're entitled to that. Just like the OP whom I suggested the same. Buy one don't buy one I don't really care the OP asked for suggestions and I gave it and thats that.
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
Arcam all day from a performance standpoint, I sold my new Marantz Cinema 50 and went with an AVR 11 and there's no comparison when it comes to sound quality even without Dirac room correction. BUT the Arcam definitely has more quirks. The Marantz GUI is top notch and that is basically non existent on the Arcam.

I've also had a Denon 3700H before the Marantz and a Marantz AV77002. If you can get an Arcam and at least try it out with a fair return period Im pretty sure thats what you'd prefer in the end. Just make sure you spend the time to properly set it up with the correct distances and use an SPL meter to set the levels and you're golden.
To be fair, the AVR11 is a couple of market segments up on the Cinema 50... the Cinema 40 is closer to the same market segment...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm talking about the sound of the unit out of the box with just the level matching and distances set with and without the external amps I have. I haven't spent enough time with Dirac I've spent plenty of time with the different Audyssey iterations in the past and it sounded fine but I'm at the point where I'm happy with the Arcam as it sits without room correction.
So your comparison was just direct mode vs direct mode, not Marantz/Denon Audyssey vs Arcam Direct mode?

Anyway, as PENG and others said, you should use whatever you think sounds best to your ears. It’s your money, so gotta be happy, right? :D

I think your point is that everything should try for themselves.

And other peoples point is that, yes, everyone should try for themselves. But everyone needs to realize that there are SO MANY examples on the forums about people saying that brand Y sounds so much better to them than brand X.

Also realize that many of us have actually auditioned Arcam, Anthem, and other brands as well. This goes for AVR, AVP, amps.

I think MCode said Arcam is owned by Harman, which is now owned by Samsung.

All the Arcam AVR are made in Vietnam. The Denon x3000 and x4000 and Marantz Cinema-50 are also made in Vietnam.

The Denon x6000 and x8000 are made in JAPAN.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Confirmation Bias
Yep. You got the fancy words for it. :D

When someone is predisposed (biased) toward a certain brand by whatever reasons, they will find whatever it takes to reinforce their bias/preference and ignore/dismiss everything else. :D

If there are double-blind tests that disprove the bias, they will ignore them.
 
jonmartin84

jonmartin84

Enthusiast
To be fair, the AVR11 is a couple of market segments up on the Cinema 50... the Cinema 40 is closer to the same market segment...
I'm aware. I'm a dealer for all those brands and have used them all. I'm just sharing my current thoughts from my own system I will get a Cinema 40 or whatever their 7706 replacement is when available (if they make one) and reevaluate down the line I like switching gear from time to time and living with it before offering them to my clients. This gives me time to figure out the strengths and weaknesses as well as test how they play with the automation systems I work with.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm aware. I'm a dealer for all those brands and have used them all. I'm just sharing my current thoughts from my own system I will get a Cinema 40 or whatever their 7706 replacement is when available (if they make one) and reevaluate down the line I like switching gear from time to time and living with it before offering them to my clients. This gives me time to figure out the strengths and weaknesses as well as test how they play with the automation systems I work with.
Oh, now you're a dealer....just doing some guerilla marketing? LOL.
 
jonmartin84

jonmartin84

Enthusiast
Oh, now you're a dealer....just doing some guerilla marketing? LOL.
If thats your take thats on you, Last I checked I'm not selling to anyone on here including the OP so its irrelevant. I'm not allowed to have an opinion all of a sudden? Laughable.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If thats your take thats on you, Last I checked I'm not selling to anyone on here including the OP so its irrelevant. I'm not allowed to have an opinion all of a sudden? Laughable.
Vested interests are vested interests....and informal comparisons from excited consumers (or dealers)....meh.
 
jonmartin84

jonmartin84

Enthusiast
Vested interests are vested interests....and informal comparisons from excited consumers (or dealers)....meh.
If I'm not selling on here what are my vested interest? If I can sell either product am I still not allowed to have an opinion? It's funny how Amir at ASR is also a dealer but has an opinion but doesn't seem to phase anyone interesting.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If I'm not selling on here what are my vested interest? If I can sell either product am I still not allowed to have an opinion? It's funny how Amir at ASR is also a dealer but has an opinion but doesn't seem to phase anyone interesting.
Not quite like that. Amir's brief subjective impressions aren't the basis of the review. Who said you're not allowed to have an opinion but why is your opinion particularly relevant or did you discover something actually different that can be articulated other than in subjective terms, particularly only your subjective terms?
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic
I'm aware. I'm a dealer for all those brands and have used them all. I'm just sharing my current thoughts from my own system I will get a Cinema 40 or whatever their 7706 replacement is when available (if they make one) and reevaluate down the line I like switching gear from time to time and living with it before offering them to my clients. This gives me time to figure out the strengths and weaknesses as well as test how they play with the automation systems I work with.
With my recent change of AVR's (Onkyo TX-SR876 & Integra DTR 70.4 to Integra DRX 3.4) - I too compared old to new in Direct mode to evaluate the analogue circuitry...

The new couldn't hold a candle to the old models as an AVR - ie using the internal amps (but that was expected, as it is several segments down the marketplace form those oldies) - once I put external amps on the new AVR - the difference between old and new became negligible - I doubt I could differentiate between them in a blind test.

Only after that, did I then set up Dirac and compare Audyssey vs Dirac.... immediately noticeable improvement in favour of Dirac. Imaging, soundstaging, vocal clarity... surprising how much better! - I like to mention my caveat - the old versions of Audyssey XT32 I used had the MRC 2kHz drop, hard wired - no option to disable it - and it is possible that on newer D&M versions, where the MRC can easily be disabled, Audyssey would duke it out more evenly with Dirac.... but my experience is 100% in favour of Dirac.
 
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dlaloum

Audioholic
If I'm not selling on here what are my vested interest? If I can sell either product am I still not allowed to have an opinion? It's funny how Amir at ASR is also a dealer but has an opinion but doesn't seem to phase anyone interesting.
Amirm's opinions on ASR are often controversial - many ASR readers do no agree with his opinions - while reading with great interest the measurements.

Opinions are based on subjective values - values differ, how one weighs those values differ - hence different people, presented with multi-dimensional measurements of a component, are likely to end up with differing opinions based on those same measurements.

The polls attached to the reviews are just as interesting - with the spread of reader responses reflecting the differences in opinon.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If thats your take thats on you, Last I checked I'm not selling to anyone on here including the OP so its irrelevant. I'm not allowed to have an opinion all of a sudden? Laughable.
To be fair, I have not seen a single post on this thread where someone implied someone else is not entitled to an opinion. Though I can see that HD might have been a little sarcastic in his "dealer" comment. You, on the other hand said "..Most of the people on the boards haven't heard either and yet have made an opinion and thats even more laughable.. ". To me, I hope after you had your laugh you would also consider their "opinions" in a more objective manner.

Consider that ASR's typical battery of measurements that include not just SINAD (reciprocal of THD+N), but also dynamic range/Signal to noise, 32 tones input, IMD (intermodulation distortions), frequency response including not just the typical 1 kHz but also up to 90 kHz bandwidth, frequency dependency, linearity, THD+N for coaxial input, HDMI input, analog input, and for the power amp side, 5 W output test, maximum output tests into 8 and 4 ohms at the THD knee point, not just clipping point, dynamic output into 8/4 ohms and more..; and also FFTs that display the harmonic profiles, that something the likes of Soundandvison.com would never do, and now they are not doing it at all, don't you think such measurements done on ASR are, to people who lean more on the "audio science" side, are a little more than just "somewhat useful", but actually reasonably useful and reliable in terms of predicting the dut's (devices under tests) sound quality at least in terms of transparency if not audibility?

Dealer or not, you clearly are an open minded audioholics, otherwise you wouldn't have bothered trying several AVRs before settling on one, so I hope you would give the others (the "people on the boards...") point of views more serious considerations instead of just laughing it off..

By the way, talking about FFT, take a look of an Arcam's AVR10 and the AVR-X3700H, the one with the original DAC IC:

AVR10 vs AVR-X3700h:

1668691281300.png
1668691232632.png


Let's ignore the noise part in case there is something peculiar about Amir's typical connections layout that the specific Arcam AVR10 may not like, but you can see the harmonic distortions of the AVR10 are quite high, not only in the less offensive low order, but also the higher order harmonics such as the 7th, 9th, 11th and beyond.

That's just the preamp/dac output! If you look at the measurements at the power amp output you will see similar performance. We don't know if Amir had made any "mistakes" or done something that might have skew the results in a negative way, but in the past, other lab's test results including the manufacturers typically confirmed his results in similar tests, with may be one or two exceptions that I can remember (usually on the noise side, and in those cases, the reasons for the differences were discovered and explained).

So I hope you can see why the "people on the boards" reacted the way they did, with those results there isn't much need to listen to the devices to conclude that the AVR10 has much higher distortions and noise than the AVR-X3700H and because it is not about "audibility" but about the measurable performance that most posters reacted to.

In terms of audibility, it is highly possible that the AVR10 can sound more pleasing to many (but not necessarily most) as it has distortions that may be high enough to be audible and it is proven in various studies that harmonic distortions alone, unless really high such as above 1%, is not a good indicator of perceived sound quality anyway. Nelson pass actually designed a DIY harmonic generator for people interested in trying out if they prefer their sound with intentionally added harmonic distortions. He found that "when given a choice between the sound of an amplifier whose characteristic is dominantly 2nd harmonic versus 3rd harmonic, a good percentage of listeners choose the 3rd. " Now clearly if the total harmonics are low enough, such as below 0.01%, one can say who cares if the harmonics are 2nd, 3rd, or even the highly offensive high order ones? In this case though the example AVR10 used did show THD much higher than 0.01%

This example used the AVR10, the AVR11 might have very different performance, perhaps much lower (or higher) harmonic distortions and noise. Regardless, my point is, assuming when the devices being compared do sound audibly different, the one that measured with better results may be preferred by some but not others in terms of perceived sound quality if the better results are mainly in distortions. Also, as you mentioned there may be other things not measured, in the ASR cases, Amir rarely measured damping factor, he did it for amps sometimes but never on AVRs, and that's just one example there may be other important factors not measured but should have been measured.
 
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