Need some help with room gain.

[Danzilla31]

Ok sorry for disappearing. I don't frequent this forum, just stop in from time to time to harass @shadyJ.

I meant that you should lower the crossover point on an individual sub, as in use its own built in LPF.

I know I know, but isn't it bad to compound multiple crossovers? Doesn't it screw up the sound? Well, not really. paralleling two 2nd order BW filters gives you a 4th order L-R filter. So we aren't talking about much different here. What it does is technically make the filter steeper, but as I said, the entire goal was to take advantage of that fact, since it changes the shape of the response. It adds group delay, but so does any higher order crossover. You can compensate for that by adjusting the delay. Make the sub farther away, or...rerun Audyssey, it will automatically compensate.

In my own system, I have it setup so the main speakers run full range. A global 150hz 2nd order LP filter is applied. I have a total of 4 subwoofers placed in various locations around the room. One is in the front left corner, one is front center, one is right front 1/3, and the other is left rear 1/3, roughly. The front two subwoofers are operating from 150hz and down. The next closest location to the listening position is crossed at 100hz 1st order. The last subwoofer is crossed at 80hz 1st order. In practice the slopes are steeper than that because of inductive losses and because of the cascading crossovers at 150hz and 100 or 80hz. This arrangement creates minimal excess group delay from the filters and provides for good integration.

So the rear most subwoofer isn't actually crossed at 80hz however. Because I wanted to get a flatter response and it had too much upper bass, I actually set the crossover at closer to 60hz and turned the level up. If you saw the response of just that sub, you would swear it was crossed at 80hz (it effectively is), but the electrical slope is much lower.

In general it is best not to focus on numbers and rather on results. A crossover point is fairly meaningless if the speakers response is not flat. The response of most speakers are not flat, even subs, which are very smooth typically, are not necessarily flat. All speakers are bandwidth limited, they all have a high pass filter. Maybe not electrically, but certainlly acoustically. Depending on the way the sub's response rolls off on the bottom can make the placement of the low pass filter as much a low pass filter as EQ.

Welcome back! I solved my problem by moving both PB 4000's Near field behind the couches. They measured even better there and the Near field effect is well phenomenal. And all my room gain issues were resolved the thick boomyness from the right side the cricket sound chirping from my chimney the rattling of the walls. Now it's just clean perfect accurate distortionless body tingling gut rumbling kick you in the chest beautiful BASS.

Those subs were amazing 14 ft in front of me they are beyond description a foot behind me. One of the funnest awesomeness experiences I've had in audio up to this time.

I see your point with multiple crossovers and can see how if done correctly it can improve your experience in your room. I've experienced this myself. For example the ceilings are set fronts 120hz back rears 90hz surrounds 100 Hz fronts and center 80hz and the subs take on over at that point. You'd think all the crossover points would be an issue. But no its what sounds the best in my room.

By the way what speakers do you run full range? I'm buying 3 SVS ultra towers to run my front 3 next year then moving the prime towers to surround status on the sides and rears. I really want to run the 3 towers full range up front. I say this because when I first set up Audyssey I accidentally set the primes on full range. And it sounded awesome. It's just a little too much for them but I'm hoping the Ultras can handle it. But all towers in all positions and 4 RSL c34e's in my ceiling for my heights should be pretty darn epic. Well at least I'm thinking they will be Lol.

 

[snakeeyes]

The specs on the ultra towers look sweet! It would be a shame to not run those full range.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I use a trio of Gedlee Abbeys from Earl Geddes. He’s largely retired from the speaker business.

My Video on the Geddes approach explains a bit of how and why I run speakers full range. For the bass integration approach I’ve adopted, it’s not something that can be done with any speaker. They need to have certain dynamic capabilities and a certain rolloff characteristic.

 

[Danzilla31]

I use a trio of Gedlee Abbeys from Earl Geddes. He’s largely retired from the speaker business.

My Video on the Geddes approach explains a bit of how and why I run speakers full range. For the bass integration approach I’ve adopted, it’s not something that can be done with any speaker. They need to have certain dynamic capabilities and a certain rolloff characteristic.

Interesting! Congrats on the setup I'll definetly be checking that article out might help me in my setup when those towers come in. I'll need all the advice I can get! Lol

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Interesting! Congrats on the setup I'll definetly be checking that article out might help me in my setup when those towers come in. I'll need all the advice I can get! Lol

Yeah I tried to include a lot of concepts that are generally applicable in that discussion.

You need to be able to take measurements to fully utilize it, but otherwise it’s not very complicated, just cumbersome.

I’m not surprised that the nearfield subs worked out. It’s probably an idea worthy of greater investigation. David Griesinger came up with a sort of similar idea. He noted that by placing the subs on either side of the listener (he meant against the walls however) you maximized the direct sound. At LF’s there is virtually no direct sound when subs are in normal locations. However as you move the subs closer to the seats the amount of direct sound increases and that gives a flatter response.

 

[Danzilla31]

Yeah I tried to include a lot of concepts that are generally applicable in that discussion.

You need to be able to take measurements to fully utilize it, but otherwise it’s not very complicated, just cumbersome.

I’m not surprised that the nearfield subs worked out. It’s probably an idea worthy of greater investigation. David Griesinger came up with a sort of similar idea. He noted that by placing the subs on either side of the listener (he meant against the walls however) you maximized the direct sound. At LF’s there is virtually no direct sound when subs are in normal locations. However as you move the subs closer to the seats the amount of direct sound increases and that gives a flatter response.

That's what I did the subs are equidistant to either side right behind me behind the couches ones behind the middle of the right ones behind the middle of the left you can't tell there are too subs back there it all sounds and feels like the bass is coming right from where your sitting

 

[Matthew J Poes]

That's what I did the subs are equidistant to either side right behind me behind the couches ones behind the middle of the right ones behind the middle of the left you can't tell there are too subs back there it all sounds and feels like the bass is coming right from where your sitting

good you found something that works for you.

 

[Danzilla31]

good you found something that works for you.

Oh yeah like eargasmic works for me! Youv'e given me some very good articles to look into thank you for the input

 

[snakeeyes]

The measurements down to 28hz are impressive on the SVS Ultra Towers. I definitely would love to audition a pair at some point for 80% home theater use. I wonder if they measure better or worse than 28hz. I’m hoping they possibly measure a little better even.

 

[Danzilla31]

The measurements down to 28hz are impressive on the SVS Ultra Towers. I definitely would love to audition a pair at some point for 80% home theater use. I wonder if they measure better or worse than 28hz. I’m hoping they possibly measure a little better even.

Me too! I bet you the 28hz they're falling off pretty steep by that point but I bet you there solid down to 32hz for sure. At least I hope so we'll just have to measure them and see!

 

[snakeeyes]

Me too! I bet you the 28hz they're falling off pretty steep by that point but I bet you there solid down to 32hz for sure. At least I hope so we'll just have to measure them and see!

These SVS Ultra Towers and the GoldenEar Triton 5 Towers are on my list to audition. I keep thinking about those Canton Vento Towers at A4L though.