Need help with amplifier for Yamaha rxa 860

[Puglover]

I don't have a subwoofer at this time, just 5 speaker system. You are right on with what I was thinking. Better avr and not need to get an amp. This would give me better options given the 860's shortcomings that I have already noticed. I don't listen to high volumes very often anyway. I have never owned a Denon before but alot of people on here speak highly of them.I shouldn't need anything more for my situation. Crutchfield gives me 60 days to try at no cost to me if I don't like it or have a problem. I have never listened to a Denon before so this way I have nothing to lose. Hopefully it will sound better, along with more options for the future.

 

[lovinthehd]

While I think you're attributing too much to sound differences inherent in different brands of avr, or even the slight power differences among them, the Denon would provide a bit more power. In an apartment can't see it making a lot of difference unless you like annoying your neighbors but that may depend on your building's construction

 

[KEW]

While I think you're attributing too much to sound differences inherent in different brands of avr, or even the slight power differences among them, the Denon would provide a bit more power. In an apartment can't see it making a lot of difference unless you like annoying your neighbors but that may depend on your building's construction

You need to check out the AH review of this product. Yamaha screwed the pooch on this one! The power supply seems to be atrociously deficient!

 

[Puglover]

Even though where I am currently it's not a problem so far (pretty solid building) that's why I haven't gone out and purchased anything yet without posting here first. It's just hard to get the bad taste out of my mouth on the 860. I even complained where I bought it before the review came out here. I didn't want to pass up on the Denon offer if others here with expertise thought it is a wise and solid move or not. Although I have spent alot of time researching for myself here and elsewhere. This forum seems to have the most experienced and we'll informed people.

 

[Pogre]

FWIW I would normally recommend a sub, but with the issues I've been reading about the 860 I vote the 4300 also. It's an awesome deal and you can save for a sub or 2 later.

 

[highfigh]

I don't have a subwoofer at this time, just 5 speaker system. You are right on with what I was thinking. Better avr and not need to get an amp. This would give me better options given the 860's shortcomings that I have already noticed. I don't listen to high volumes very often anyway. I have never owned a Denon before but alot of people on here speak highly of them.I shouldn't need anything more for my situation. Crutchfield gives me 60 days to try at no cost to me if I don't like it or have a problem. I have never listened to a Denon before so this way I have nothing to lose. Hopefully it will sound better, along with more options for the future.

This is the reason I would like the AV manufacturers to build a lower cost preamp/processor and 5-11 channel power amp- more power helps, but it would have to be a significant jump in output over the lower powered AVRs. Since it's unlikely that they'll build AVRs with a modular power amp built in, this would be the second best way to get people into the equipment they need. Yes, it costs more, but if someone buys an RX-V860 AND a power amp, it will be over $1000, anyway.

Look at the Denon AVR-X4300H- it's more powerful and it's on sale for less than $799. If you find that it's not enough power, and it's rated for only 25W/channel more, maybe you could go with a lower priced receiver with similar preamp abilities and add a power amp.
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However, if you already have some MusicCast pieces in your house, I would stay with Yamaha, but maybe the RX-V760 and a power amp to save money since the 760 only differs in its output and almost nothing else of consequence. If you already have HEOS, go with the Denon because that's built into their AVRs, now.

 

[KEW]

Look at the Denon AVR-X4300H- it's more powerful and it's on sale for less than $799. If you find that it's not enough power, and it's rated for only 25W/channel more, maybe you could go with a lower priced receiver with similar preamp abilities and add a power amp.

While it may be so rated, what you are missing is that the Yamaha is a particularly poor design. It seems likely that the power supply is not what it should be.
Look at the power tables here comparing the (100WPC) Yamaha 860 against the (105WPC) Denon 3300:
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

Note that Gene avoided publishing CFP-BW info for 2 channels into 4 Ohms on the Yamaha without explanation.
Note that the 3300 produces 88.6WPC 1kHz Psweep into 5 channels at 8 ohms, while the 860 falls to 37WPC under the same circumstances.
It looks like the Yamaha falls apart when current demands are put upon it!

 

[Andrein]

While it may be so rated, what you are missing is that the Yamaha is a particularly poor design. It seems likely that the power supply is not what it should be.
Look at the power tables here comparing the (100WPC) Yamaha 860 against the (105WPC) Denon 3300:
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

Note that Gene avoided publishing CFP-BW info for 2 channels into 4 Ohms on the Yamaha without explanation.
Note that the 3300 produces 88.6WPC 1kHz Psweep into 5 channels at 8 ohms, while the 860 falls to 37WPC under the same circumstances.
It looks like the Yamaha falls apart when current demands are put upon it!

I used to have a860 with 4ohm fronts. Was getting distortion while listening to some power demanding songs dven at -25db. Bought external amp Anthem mca 525. This fixed the issue with distortion. But other guys scared me with low quality preouts of a860 so i upgraded to a1070. But with a1070 tbh i havent noticed much difference from a860. But i dont listen at levels higher then -20 db. So not sure what would happen there if i didnt uprade avr.

 

[highfigh]

While it may be so rated, what you are missing is that the Yamaha is a particularly poor design. It seems likely that the power supply is not what it should be.
Look at the power tables here comparing the (100WPC) Yamaha 860 against the (105WPC) Denon 3300:
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

Note that Gene avoided publishing CFP-BW info for 2 channels into 4 Ohms on the Yamaha without explanation.
Note that the 3300 produces 88.6WPC 1kHz Psweep into 5 channels at 8 ohms, while the 860 falls to 37WPC under the same circumstances.
It looks like the Yamaha falls apart when current demands are put upon it!

I know. Fortunately, Yamaha's AVRs are reliable, if not especially powerful.

That's one of my major annoyances- as a dealer, I have to deal with client requests and find something that will fit the bill and then, when the time comes, the features are good, but the amplifier performance is lacking. I wish I had remembered about the lack of power when I went to the last Yamaha training- I would have grilled the trainer.

In the '70s and early-'80s, most manufacturers offered several preamp/power amp or integrated amp choices and they were popular. They also outperformed the spec sheet in many cases. My Sony TA-F6B integrated amp was rated at 100W/ch, low distortion, 8 Ohms, 20-20KHz and when I had it tested, its output was 176W/channel, both channels driven into 8 Ohms. I'd like to see today's gear do that.

 

[Puglover]

While I think you're attributing too much to sound differences inherent in different brands of avr, or even the slight power differences among them, the Denon would provide a bit more power. In an apartment can't see it making a lot of difference unless you like annoying your neighbors but that may depend on your building's construction

Not necessarily, I know it's been talked about alot but how does audyssey play into the equation? I have noticed alot of members wouldn't consider a receiver without it. Not to start a long debate, but if there is not much differences between avr's in the power Dept so audyssey must do something for sound quality I assume. I am not familiar with YPAO or audyssey. Or is this just personal preference?

 

[lovinthehd]

Not necessarily, I know it's been talked about alot but how does audyssey play into the equation? I have noticed alot of members wouldn't consider a receiver without it. Not to start a long debate, but if there is not much differences between avr's in the power Dept so audyssey must do something for sound quality I assume. I am not familiar with YPAO or audyssey. Or is this just personal preference?

This is where avrs can differ in sound as the room eq or dsp of different avrs is.....different. I haven't played with YPAO but do like the Audyssey feature, particularly dual sub capabilities of XT32/SubEQ equipped avrs. I've used a Pioneer with MCACC and have an old Sony with not even an auto setup. They're all just different.

IMO this is personal preference, not necessarily a quality difference. Compare avrs in their bare bone state, pure direct or its equivalent, and that's hard to do without level matching, quick switching to the same speakers, blind, etc....

 

[Puglover]

Decisions, decisions. I guess after all my research and advice I've gotten here, it all boils down to how the Denon performs in my environment and how I like what I hear along with the different features it has. If I do purchase the Denon, I will have 60 days to decide if it's worth it to me to justify the change. If I do, I will post my opinions. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Andrein]

Another option would be the new gen of yamaha avrs like a1070+ if you are used to yamaha or like its features, dsp modes. If your a860 is not distorting at the levels you listen, then i would just leave it until it becomes a problem.

 

[Puglover]

Another option would be the new gen of yamaha avrs like a1070+ if you are used to yamaha or like its features, dsp modes. If your a860 is not distorting at the levels you listen, then i would just leave it until it becomes a problem.

That's one thing I am going to do.
I am going to do some serious listening with some demanding material at the volumes I like before making a decision to purchase anything. The conversation that we had stopped me from running out and buying a 1070 already. It's hard when you hear all the problems with the 860, exspecially the low acd test and low preouts. You gave me good advice and made me really think about what I should do and I think you for that. I actually really do like the features of the Yamaha for that matter. But I haven't had a Denon to compare. I may just go with your advice, again

 

[PENG]

That's one thing I am going to do.
I am going to do some serious listening with some demanding material at the volumes I like before making a decision to purchase anything. The conversation that we had stopped me from running out and buying a 1070 already. It's hard when you hear all the problems with the 860, exspecially the low acd test and low preouts. You gave me good advice and made me really think about what I should do and I think you for that. I actually really do like the features of the Yamaha for that matter. But I haven't had a Denon to compare. I may just go with your advice, again

Again, low preout is not an issue if you match it with an amplifier that has high enough gain for the pair to reach rated output. Gene explained that in his review. Like amplifier output power, more is better but once you get pass the point of diminishing return, you can simply try to get the best bang for your money.

ACD numbers are not that important unless you listen to 5 or 7 channel stereo mode and listen loud in a large enough room for that to become an issue. At a given price point, the manufacturer has to choose to optimize 1,2 and 3 channel output (spend more on the amps), or try to achieve the best ACD rating (spend more on the power supply). Yamaha did the right thing as bench tests in the past showed that their AVRs have had very good 2 channel driven numbers. Their ACD numbers suffered, partly because of their apparently more aggressive protective circuit. That will not likely be a real problem when playing typical music and movie contents when the high peak moments don't last long enough to activate the protective circuit.

 

[Puglover]

Again, low preout is not an issue if you match it with an amplifier that has high enough gain for the pair to reach rated output. Gene explained that in his review. Like amplifier output power, more is better but once you get pass the point of diminishing return, you can simply try to get the best bang for your money.

ACD numbers are not that important unless you listen to 5 or 7 channel stereo mode and listen loud in a large enough room for that to become an issue. At a given price point, the manufacturer has to choose to optimize 1,2 and 3 channel output (spend more on the amps), or try to achieve the best ACD rating (spend more on the power supply). Yamaha did the right thing as bench tests in the past showed that their AVRs have had very good 2 channel driven numbers. Their ACD numbers suffered, partly because of their apparently more aggressive protective circuit. That will not likely be a real problem when playing typical music and movie contents when the high peak moments don't last long enough to activate the protective circuit.

So maybe going ahead with a subwoofer purchase might just also be the way to go. As I see it, it might just take some of the pressure off the Yamaha power just enough to where I might not have any problems with more demanding movie material. If it's true you only need a few Watts, 37 per channel should be more than enough for my listening taste's. I still have time to think about it. But something in me really wants a better avr since no one is suggesting to go out and buy a Yamaha rxa 860.

 

[Andrein]

A860 is not a bad avr. Even Gene mentioned this i think in his article and video. You just need to know a860 boundaries. Once you hit those, it will make sence to think about another avr or external amp. If you cant hear any distortion at levels you listen to, you wont get a better sound with other avr. And this makes sub a better purchase for you than external amp.

 

[PENG]

So maybe going ahead with a subwoofer purchase might just also be the way to go. As I see it, it might just take some of the pressure off the Yamaha power just enough to where I might not have any problems with more demanding movie material. If it's true you only need a few Watts, 37 per channel should be more than enough for my listening taste's. I still have time to think about it. But something in me really wants a better avr since no one is suggesting to go out and buy a Yamaha rxa 860.

You seem still fixated on the ACD 37W thing, so do you really listen to 7 channel stereo that much? I am just curious, and if you do like 7ch or even 5ch stereo then you definitely will benefit from an external power amp if you also like to listen loud and in a relatively large room. Otherwise I do think a good sub will be the way to go.

 

[Puglover]

You seem still fixated on the ACD 37W thing, so do you really listen to 7 channel stereo that much? I am just curious, and if you do like 7ch or even 5ch stereo then you definitely will benefit from an external power amp if you also like to listen loud and in a relatively large room. Otherwise I do think a good sub will be the way to go.

Not at all, don't like it one bit. I believe you and adrein are correct, I just haven't listened to the Denon before and I have researched all the positive reviews and of course the smoking deal on the 4300, it got me to thinking. Thats why I posted here before I did anything since I know enough to ask from others with more experience.