Need Advice - Newbie and not getting audio experience I expected

[mtrycrafts]

Looking at your speaker's specs, they are 96dB sensitive. Very high. 1 watts in will play at 96 dB spl, also very loud.
Both 52s have 5 1/2" drivers. I would suggest making them small in the setup and perhaps 80 Hz or 90 Hz crossover.
The big amp should have negligible effect on those speakers compared to your Yam, certainly not with that kind of sensitivity.
Try turning the center vertically if you have the space.
Again, I would suggest making sure all channels are level matched with an spl meter.
The banana plugs are not an issue. It works or shorts in which case amps shut down, hopefully.
If you can somehow go into the eq feature, turn down some of the higher treble band?

Don't really know what you mean about the live even punch.
I am pretty sure better subs will give you it. If and when you get a better sub, try it without your in.

 

[Ator]

I am not surprised that the Emotiva doesn't add anything. The Yamaha should have enough power for Klipsch (which are known for their efficiency). Having the Emotiva just ensures power definitely is not the issue.
I have a friend who bi-amped his RF62II and he thought there was an improvement, but the fact that he thinks it and doesn't know means we are not talking a major difference.

I think of the Klipsch as the most "punchy" speakers among what you might find in your local B&M stores. The 5" drivers really should be able to perform well enough since you are offloading the bass from your mains! Double check that your mains are not running full-range. I don't know Yamaha's terms, but for Denon, the speakers need to be set to small and the subwoofer mode under bass settings should be set to LFE+Main (you can check to make sure the sub is playing when you listen to an audio only source like a CD. This would ensure the sub is set to play the low frequencies from the "Mains").

The fact that your center (with 4" drivers) passes muster is perplexing. I really hope the leads on one of the speakers got reversed because that would make better sense of it all.

Next time you run them, also feel the air coming out of the ports in the rear of the speakers (I think two per speaker IIRC). It should be roughly equal from all of the ports. On the left side, the ports are firing into a pocket. I don't believe that is an issue, but it is easy enough to pull it about 12" in front of your console as a test to see if there is any change.

Have you tried Pure Direct yet? This eliminates almost all processing, so rules out many factors that might cause the problem.

Evaluating your system before you mentioned any issues, the sub stands out as the weak link. Swapping your sub would definitely be money well spent. But I'm not sure it would fix your problem, so hold off if you don't have money for new speakers until we run our of options. You don't want to buy new speakers only to find out some snafu in the setup caused the issue.

Thanks again for the great feedback and dialogue.

So, I did a lot of checking and tweaking etc. wiring all looks good. I think one improvement I made was that the sub was over driven. Input was too high and maybe drowning out the mids? In my reading I did find to make the speaker set to small which I did. I remeasured all the distances and made some adjustments. Center channel level was way too high so tweaked that. Ordered a meter so I will recheck all the levels.

What I hear now is more continuity in the sounds. It sounds synchronized It feels better.

I just checked the air for the fronts and really don't feel much air coming out of either left or right. Which again makes me feel like something is missing with those fronts.

Also, focused all my retweaked settings in 2 channel stereo for music. Which for me the music is the most important to get where I want it.

When switching to movies I get best results using surround decode but afraid to tweak it as it will mess up the music settings. Oh first world problems! Lol. Wish there was a way to split that out. Any suggestions? Maybe invest in a separate for just pure music?

What about a second sub? I am ok with purchasing another one. What would you recommend? And question is where do I put it? From my picture, during the crawl test the left corner near the bar had great results. Issue is getting a wire there. Or is that too far?

I'm going to keep the emotiva as I may consider in the future new fronts, but only once I can be sure new fronts will make a difference.

Last thought, I listen to my music from Apple TV. There are issues since some songs are recorded in lower volumes etc and the dynamics seem to just disappear ( and vice versa some songs are way too loud). How do people get around this? If the data is not there I suppose not much you can really do?

Thanks!
Leo

 

[Ator]

Thanks again for the great feedback and dialogue.

So, I did a lot of checking and tweaking etc. wiring all looks good. I think one improvement I made was that the sub was over driven. Input was too high and maybe drowning out the mids? In my reading I did find to make the speaker set to small which I did. I remeasured all the distances and made some adjustments. Center channel level was way too high so tweaked that. Ordered a meter so I will recheck all the levels.

What I hear now is more continuity in the sounds. It sounds synchronized It feels better.

I just checked the air for the fronts and really don't feel much air coming out of either left or right. Which again makes me feel like something is missing with those fronts.

Also, focused all my retweaked settings in 2 channel stereo for music. Which for me the music is the most important to get where I want it.

When switching to movies I get best results using surround decode but afraid to tweak it as it will mess up the music settings. Oh first world problems! Lol. Wish there was a way to split that out. Any suggestions? Maybe invest in a separate for just pure music?

What about a second sub? I am ok with purchasing another one. What would you recommend? And question is where do I put it? From my picture, during the crawl test the left corner near the bar had great results. Issue is getting a wire there. Or is that too far?

I'm going to keep the emotiva as I may consider in the future new fronts, but only once I can be sure new fronts will make a difference.

Last thought, I listen to my music from Apple TV. There are issues since some songs are recorded in lower volumes etc and the dynamics seem to just disappear ( and vice versa some songs are way too loud). How do people get around this? If the data is not there I suppose not much you can really do?

Thanks!
Leo

Forgot to add one other question. The hum/buzz I hear is only in the center channel. The rest of the speakers are nearly silent. Thougths? why just the center channel?

 

[PENG]

Forgot to add one other question. The hum/buzz I hear is only in the center channel. The rest of the speakers are nearly silent. Thougths? why just the center channel?

For one thing, the center speaker is 3 dB more sensitive so the hum/buzz should be noticeably louder. There could be other factors, such as the location of the center speaker may emphasize the hum frequencies (mostly the fundamental and 2nd harmonics of the mains frequency).

Try to use a different interconnect between the 1020 and the Emo and keep it the shortest possible and see if that helps. Also try to remove the interconnect between the Emo and the 1020 and use the 1020 to drive the center speaker just to narrow down the causes.

 

[herbu]

When switching to movies I get best results using surround decode but afraid to tweak it as it will mess up the music settings. Oh first world problems! Lol. Wish there was a way to split that out. Any suggestions?

Yes. I think your AVR will do that for you.
I think I remember my Yamaha remote has buttons for different sound modes... ie. Movies, Music, Games, or selections like that. You can program each button to give you what you want.

Program Music for 2-ch Stereo w/ whatever enhancements you want. Program Movies for a completely different set of settings. Makes it very easy to swap back and forth.

 

[DD66000]

I tend to think you have a huge dip in the FR in the MB range.
If you do have, or can connect a lap top or Macbook for a source, then go to dirac web site and download their free 14 day trial stereo suite.

You will also need a calibration mic to run the sweep.
After the sweep is run, it will show you the in-room response at the main listening position. You then let the filter correct the FR, which you can also taylor to suit your preferences.
If there is a huge dip in the 80 ~ 800 hz range, or anywhere else, that is your problem.

An added thought: being you use a Yamaha AVR. Yamaha, like HK, Pioneer, have their own version of auto EQ. If Yamaha's EQ is anything like my HK EQ, it sucks the life out of music.
While listening to music, turn the auto EQ off/on/off. If you notice the music becoming much more intense with it off, there is the problem.
My HK EQ is not too bad for movies, but music, its just plain terrible.

And in any case, I prefer using the Dirac Room Correction for everything, leaving the HK EQ off.

 

[highfigh]

Hey All,

Long time audio fan and getting back into it.

Last year I bought the following setup:

Yamaha RX A1020
Klipsch - RF52 II, RC 52 II, RS 41 II and SW110 sub

System overall sounds good. I have done a lot of tweaking in the receiver settings, but there just seems to be something missing in the mids and feel that there is just not enough punch.

My goal is to feel music as if a live performance. Not loud but the feel of power and punch of the music when you are in front of a live band.

I recently purchased an Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 amp, think this would give me some more but it seems that the output is almost identical, plus I lost the bi-amp feature.

Questions:
1. Should I expect some difference with the new Emotiva Amp?
2. Can I bi-amp by using the reciever bi-amp posts? or is the feature lost?
3. Since I presume to get the punch and in your face feel of live music, that basic physics says that I need bigger speakers to move the sound wave...like a sub?

What would you recommend I do from this point to reach my goals? Should I sell all of the Klipsches and if so what speakers would you recommend?

I am sure there are so many loaded questions here. I am open to talking to someone over the phone as well. Thanks

It's hard to achieve a "live music" sound from A) consumer equipment (especially speakers) and B) music that was recorded in a studio, mixed in a studio and meant to be played in a home.

First, a live system isn't usually set up to go down to 20Hz and in fact, many cut off the low end around 40Hz because of the kick drum fighting with the synths (if they use them in the band) and the bass guitar) in that frequency region. The resulting sound can then be much louder without speakers bottoming out or dying, it hits harder and with the equalization set remotely the way it should be, the frequency response is very different from what is considered 'desirable' in a home system or theater. It's often heavy in the mid-bass/lower mid region and not as extended in the high frequencies.

This is where using any kind of "in the AVR" EQ settings fail when a live sound is wanted- they're trying to hit a response that isn't emphasizing anything, specifically and your speakers aren't considered "warm-sounding'. Not a dig on your speakers, but if one thing would need an audition before buying, it's speakers.

 

[DD66000]

^^^^
Its not really hard to achieve at all, as long as one takes the time to get the best speaker placement possible for the room in question...that is developing a full soundstage...with just stereo you can get an enveloping sound.

Your take on auto EQ is in fact right, though. It just takes out the MB way too much, leaving one with a dead sound.
With Dirac Room Correction on my system, the in-room house curve is +2.5db @ 20 HZ ~ -2db @ 18 KHZ. The result, LIVE concerts most certainly sound LIVE.

 

[KEW]

I think one improvement I made was that the sub was over driven. Input was too high and maybe drowning out the mids? In my reading I did find to make the speaker set to small which I did. I remeasured all the distances and made some adjustments. Center channel level was way too high so tweaked that. Ordered a meter so I will recheck all the levels.

What I hear now is more continuity in the sounds. It sounds synchronized It feels better.

Glad to hear you've made some improvements. You may end up with new sub and speakers, but everything you do to get the sound improved will be useful whether you are running your current gear or new gear. Setting the sub too hot would indeed mask out a lot of content in the adjacent frequencies.
In case you missed it, your statement about your sound getting muddied when you crossed at 100Hz is telling. A decent sub should have no problem playing cleanly up to 150-180Hz as a minimum. However, you should try 100Hz XO again now that you have the sub running at a better balanced level!

I just checked the air for the fronts and really don't feel much air coming out of either left or right. Which again makes me feel like something is missing with those fronts.

DOH! Never mind that. I had a brain fart! With the crossover at 80Hz, You shouldn't expect too much air to pass through the ports. You can re-run this test with the speakers playing full range. You should listen to just the mains by themselves playing full range anyway to see how that stands up to your expectations. I would expect the bass to be muddier (mine is, even with he 8" drivers), but they should still be fairly strong. Playing something like Steely Dan would be a good test. It has plenty of punch but not heavy sustained bass that would too quickly overload your mains.

 

[highfigh]

^^^^
Its not really hard to achieve at all, as long as one takes the time to get the best speaker placement possible for the room in question...that is developing a full soundstage...with just stereo you can get an enveloping sound.

Your take on auto EQ is in fact right, though. It just takes out the MB way too much, leaving one with a dead sound.
With Dirac Room Correction on my system, the in-room house curve is +2.5db @ 20 HZ ~ -2db @ 18 KHZ. The result, LIVE concerts most certainly sound LIVE.

SOME live recordings sound somewhat live, most sound like crap but they're getting better. The differences between a live music venue, the live music system and the recording make it very dissimilar. Recordings of live music are mixed in stereo most of the time and live gigs are usually mono. The effects we hear are different from what the audience hears and if you happen to be at a gig that's being recorded for release and could compare the two in an A/B listening session, the two would sound completely different. Small speakers with one or more subwoofers DON'T sound like live because the vast majority of audio systems can't make us feel the sound in certain frequencies. Boosting 20Hz isn't where the difference lies, it's between around 40Hz and 300Hz. A kick drum usually produces most of its sound close to 25Hz and without compression/limiting, it would kill the woofers in a live system. The low B string on a 5 string bass is centered around 32Hz- add that to the kick drum and all kinds of problems start, including intermodulation. The difference frequencies are A) inaudible, B) too low for ANY live rig to produce and C) useless and the sum frequencies add to make the sound terribly bass-heavy. If the instruments used DON'T extend to this range, 20Hz is meaningless, anyway. Boosting that range when acoustic guitars are used makes the sound into something that nobody wants to hear, especially when they use a transducer and are plugged directly into the board or an amp with DI.

BTW- live rooms aren't often "corrected" in the same way a small listening room is "corrected". The fundamental of a low E on a standard bass in standard tuning is 41.2Hz but what we hear is the first harmonic, at 82.4Hz and a lot of speakers have been damaged by people who didn't know where to adjust the bass in order to hear it in a way that "sounds more live". The house curve for a live gig is nothing like that of a two channel system or a home theater, although I do agree that it's possible to have an enveloping experience with a two channel system, but it really doesn't sound like any live music I have ever heard because most small rooms just don't have the reverberant characteristics of a club, regardless of what the "surround mode" can do. I do have a CD from someone I know who wanted to include the songs from some live gigs and because the sound engineer has done a lot of live mixing, he captured the sound of the club extremely well, behind the speakers and to the sides, but not between the listener and the speakers. That's the critical area that a two channel system can't provide and surround systems aren't designed to reproduce. These are made to reproduce a movie mix, not the live music experience and the two are not really compatible. There's far more interest in making it sound like a theater than a music venue.

 

[Ator]

Update:

So I received by Sound Meter today and the testing has begun!

First, in order to get any of the speakers to output to 75dba requires the volume to be at 11. Does that make sense? Even if I push the individual speaker levels all to +10 I really need to push the main volume up.

So that being said, I selected a baseline volume level...which is just an arbitrary selection. Based on those measurements, the Surrounds are maxed at +10 and still have the lowest levels, so I adjusted all of the other speakers to be in line with the surround's output at that arbitrary baseline volume level.

Does all of that make sense? Am I missing anything?

Thanks
Leo

 

[Ator]

Well..hmmm..meh...not so impressed with the adjustments. Movies sound better from the surrounds perspective. The surrounds were getting drowned out by the fronts. But overall, fronts sounds week and sub is a bit overpowering.

From a music perspective in 2 channel mode...fronts sound weak and the sub is overpowering again. I want to bump up the levels for the fronts so I don't need to push the volume which causes the overpowered bass.

Thoughts?

I think the issue with the surrounds is the thin-gauge wiring...when I have time I will fish the 10 gauge wire and hopefully that will be the root cause.

Thanks again!

 

[KEW]

So if the AVR or Emotiva is only powering the front L & R speakers, you still feel like the speakers can't get loud enough!

You keep talking about manually adjusting the levels. What happens when YPAO does it? Were you up to -11dB in 2 channel mode?

The way your sub is too loud in 2 channel, but adjusted for surround causes suspicion that you are running the surrounds far to hot! When I go from stereo to surround mode and back, The balance between sub and speakers stays fairly consistent.

Generally, I'd say the surrounds should be drowned out by the fronts! Very few soundtracks actually work the surrounds.

 

[Ator]

Yes I feel like the fronts have to be pushed so much more. I just don't get it.

To make the fronts sound better based on my post yesterday, I need to push them back to +8.5.

Right speaker needs To be +1 more than the left.

Last time I did YPAO it sounded super weak. Did not make sense to me and that was before I had the emotiva amp.

I can try it again and see what happens.

 

[KEW]

Try physically disconnecting the surrounds. My brother destroyed two amps and the amp section of his receiver before he found where his cat had stuck a claw through the speaker cable which shorted the cable only intermittently (once the power was turned up) and that was 12 or 14 ga wire.
He had checked the connections at the ends and inspected the cables for kinks or anything visually obvious, but it wasn't until he happened to lift a cable and felt the puncture in it that he found the problem.
It is possible that the rear speakers are some how presenting a load out of character with their specifications.
To small wire could be the issue depending on the length of the cable. If it is running in the walls, the length can get pretty long quickly.

I'm surprised that cat is still alive! My brother has matured over the years!

 

[herbu]

So if the AVR or Emotiva is only powering the front L & R speakers, you still feel like the speakers can't get loud enough!

You keep talking about manually adjusting the levels. What happens when YPAO does it? Were you up to -11dB in 2 channel mode?

The way your sub is too loud in 2 channel, but adjusted for surround causes suspicion that you are running the surrounds far to hot! When I go from stereo to surround mode and back, The balance between sub and speakers stays fairly consistent.

Generally, I'd say the surrounds should be drowned out by the fronts! Very few soundtracks actually work the surrounds.

Ator, what KEW said above.
I'm not sure your expectations are reasonable. Have you been to a movie theater lately? The volume there is usually "reference" level. It is LOUD. Your AVR, YPAO, and manually setting at "75dB" are designed to give you that "reference" level w/ the volume on your AVR at "0". Where is your master volume during your manual tweaking of individual speakers?

You say your volume is at "11". Is it really "11", or "-11"? If it's "-11", I think your AVR, amp & speakers are working fine. Then your only issue becomes the balance between speakers and your listening position.

While setting individual speaker volumes w/ the meter, you can also adjust ALL volume w/ your main volume control. Your AVR can only adjust the delta between an individual speaker and your main volume by so much. If I remember right, it's about 6dB. So if it looks like you need to boost all your speakers, turn up the main volume.

Here is the sequence I suggest for you:
1. Run YPAO
2. Go into the manual speaker adjust function and simply see how big/little the delta between speakers is.
3. Adjust each speaker to your taste, but only by turning individual volumes DOWN, not up. If you want to go up, turn the main volume up then adjust individual speakers down as desired. After YPAO, there should be a master volume setting where all of your speakers are pretty close to "0" at 75dB.

Remember, YPAO will set the volume of each speaker so it is THE SAME at the position where you had the mic. That is the balance used by the sound engineers when they made the master recording. Any changes you make will be because of your personal preference, NOT to achieve greater accuracy.

For example, my wife's chair is closer to the Right Surround speaker than my chair. It is too loud for her, so I turned it down some. It means the sound at my chair is less accurate, but it makes my wife happy. So personal preference, not accuracy.

 

[asere]

Get a nicer sub. I'm taking about starting price around $600.
SVS, HSU are excellent subs. That 110 you have can't dig deep.
Punch or no punch from your current setup there is nothing like a sub that can go low.

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