Need Advice - Newbie and not getting audio experience I expected

[Ator]

Hey All,

Long time audio fan and getting back into it.

Last year I bought the following setup:

Yamaha RX A1020
Klipsch - RF52 II, RC 52 II, RS 41 II and SW110 sub

System overall sounds good. I have done a lot of tweaking in the receiver settings, but there just seems to be something missing in the mids and feel that there is just not enough punch.

My goal is to feel music as if a live performance. Not loud but the feel of power and punch of the music when you are in front of a live band.

I recently purchased an Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 amp, think this would give me some more but it seems that the output is almost identical, plus I lost the bi-amp feature.

Questions:
1. Should I expect some difference with the new Emotiva Amp?
2. Can I bi-amp by using the reciever bi-amp posts? or is the feature lost?
3. Since I presume to get the punch and in your face feel of live music, that basic physics says that I need bigger speakers to move the sound wave...like a sub?

What would you recommend I do from this point to reach my goals? Should I sell all of the Klipsches and if so what speakers would you recommend?

I am sure there are so many loaded questions here. I am open to talking to someone over the phone as well. Thanks

 

[Ty Wayne]

Im in no position to give advice, Im simply here to follow along and see whats said. Having said that, even though Im a newbie, it seems to me you should be feeling some punch. I guess a bigger sub wouldnt hurt but thats only my own assumption.

What are your room dimensions? Someone is sure to ask eventually.

 

[Ator]

Room dimension is about 15' x 25' In a finished basement with concrete floors. Entertainment area is carpeted.

The Basement is much larger with a wet bar etc. But those dimension above is the main listening area. Full basement size is about 25' x 40' and the other portion is all hardwood. I often wondered if I am getting some echo from that other portion of the room. I will take a picture and post it.

Don't get me wrong, I get pretty good punch from the sub. I did the crawl and found the perfect place for the sub. Let me tell you the crawl method works. I literally made a 4 inch move and wow! What a huge difference.

But I feel like there is a lot of context missing from the mid ranges and feel like the fronts I have are part of the root cause.

Thanks Again.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Room dimension is about 15' x 25' In a finished basement with concrete floors. Entertainment area is carpeted.

The Basement is much larger with a wet bar etc. But those dimension above is the main listening area. Full basement size is about 25' x 40' and the other portion is all hardwood. I often wondered if I am getting some echo from that other portion of the room. I will take a picture and post it.

Don't get me wrong, I get pretty good punch from the sub. I did the crawl and found the perfect place for the sub. Let me tell you the crawl method works. I literally made a 4 inch move and wow! What a huge difference.

But I feel like there is a lot of context missing from the mid ranges and feel like the fronts I have are part of the root cause.

Thanks Again.

We will see what the experts say, but IMO, thats a big *** room. Im assuming ceilings are 8' or less?

 

[KEW]

How is you bass management setup?
Are you running the fronts full range?
I have a pair if rf82ii for my HT, and found they tightened up quite a bit when I set the mains to cross over to the subs at 80 Hz. With your 5" drivers, I would use 100Hz as a starting point.
The Klipsch should give a solid punch once you do that.
If you already have done that, then the amp may help, but since the Klipsch are fairly efficient, I doubt you are having power deficiencies unless you really like to crank it.
Punch isn't a sub issue, the frequencies perceived as punch fall between 100 and 180 Hz.
That said, your sub is the weak link. But let's get the punch issue worked out first.

 

[Ator]

Yes ceilings are 8' tall.

Here is a picture of the listening area. And behind me is another 20 feet all hardwood.

 

[Ator]

How is you bass management setup?
Are you running the fronts full range?
I have a pair if rf82ii for my HT, and found they tightened up quite a bit when I set the mains to cross over to the subs at 80 Hz. With your 5" drivers, I would use 100Hz as a starting point.
The Klipsch should give a solid punch once you do that.
If you already have done that, then the amp may help, but since the Klipsch are fairly efficient, I doubt you are having power deficiencies unless you really like to crank it.
Punch isn't a sub issue, the frequencies perceived as punch fall between 100 and 180 Hz.
That said, your sub is the weak link. But let's get the punch issue worked out first.

Thanks, I had them at 80 Hz and moved it to 90 Hz. 100 Hz made the sub sound a bit too muddy.

That is what I assumed that the missing punch was in the higher freq range and figured the front towers were responsible for that rather than the sub. I was thinking about upgrading to the rf82ii but wanted to wait. I was also thinking about going to the Rf 7ii if I had to.

 

[KEW]

How far back is the listening position from the main speakers? How far apart are the mains?

 

[Ator]

Listening position is 10' back
Mains are 7' apart

 

[KEW]

Turn off sub and listen for punch. Leave the speakers with 90hz cut off. It won't sound as full, but see if the impact doesn't seem better.
Your sub doesn't provide the punch, but it can obscure the punch your speakers provide.

 

[Ator]

Ok, I was doing that yesterday with only the fronts and sub off...and they fronts sound so weak. My logitec PC speakers sound better. lol.

I was under the impression that the Emotiva Amp would be driving the fronts more. Hence why I was focusing on the fronts as the root cause. So, thoughts on the fronts? Is there something wrong with them? Why would they be so weak?

Thanks for the troubleshooting steps..this is a good learning for me as I did not consider the sub as drowning out the fronts.

Thanks!

 

[Ator]

Also, I am hearing some slight buzz/hum from the Emotiva Amp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would consider getting a much better sub, a serious one with at least a 15" drivers and a lot of power behind it. Perhaps even a pair of subs.

Is that amp buzz/hum mechanical or is it in one of the speakers? May have a ground issue.

I would also buy an SPL meter, run the level program to level match all the channels and run the sub maybe 3dB hot.

I am also wondering how the speaker and room interact and how is the in room frequency response. Perhaps there is a mid band issue with the speakers?

 

[Ator]

The buzz/hum is mainly coming from the center speaker not the amp.

I was also looking into a second sub. What subs do you all recommend?

So are fronts not a real big factor even though they sound so weak? Should I get fronts with 10" woofers.

I really think there is some mid band issue.

 

[KEW]

Double check all of your connections especially between the AVR and the Emotiva.
These speakers should not sound weak. They may sound a little thin without the sub, but not weak.
They may be undersized for your listening habits, but I still would not expect them to sound weak. I believe you have the same horn I do.

Have you tried listening in pure direct stereo? Still weak?

 

[KEW]

Just brain-storming:
Are the gold metal jumper plates between the two sets of terminals on the speakers in place?
When you say weak, will they not get loud? they should be able to get uncomfortable for your ears and the XPA-5 would have plenty of power to do it. The horn should be able to do this even if the woofers were disconnected! That is why I am reluctant to say get new speakers.
Reverse the connections on one speaker only. They should sound weaker, but I'm hoping they will sound stronger because you have one reversed so your mains are out of phase.
What about your center? Is it weak to?
In multi-channel stereo, are all channels weak?
What is your reference - what are you used to hearing? You will not get life-like sound out of any system I have heard. They get very good, but never perfect. That said, Klipsch is one of the better options for dynamics!
Where are you located? If someone is close to you, they may be willing to drop by and check things out.

 

[Ator]

Just brain-storming:
Are the gold metal jumper plates between the two sets of terminals on the speakers in place?
When you say weak, will they not get loud? they should be able to get uncomfortable for your ears and the XPA-5 would have plenty of power to do it. The horn should be able to do this even if the woofers were disconnected! That is why I am reluctant to say get new speakers.
Reverse the connections on one speaker only. They should sound weaker, but I'm hoping they will sound stronger because you have one reversed so your mains are out of phase.
What about your center? Is it weak to?
In multi-channel stereo, are all channels weak?
What is your reference - what are you used to hearing? You will not get life-like sound out of any system I have heard. They get very good, but never perfect. That said, Klipsch is one of the better options for dynamics!
Where are you located? If someone is close to you, they may be willing to drop by and check things out.

Thanks Kurt for all the help/suggestions.

I will recheck all the connections. I expected to get more out of the front with the xpa 5 since it is 200 watts per channel. But the fronts literally sound identical as to when they were connected to the Yamaha receiver.

I did make sure the metal bi-amp plates where put back properly on the speaker posts.

I did purchase 10 AWG wire with locking banana plugs from blue jean. Maybe something is not right with the plugs? I can try to wire direct and see if there is a change.

When I say they sound weak I suppose it means thin, but while I expect it to be thin to a degree I would think a tower like that should produce a decent range of sound. Plus adding the xpa I would think I could get some more.

Center channel sounds good. Surrounds need a wire upgrade I believe since I am using existing wiring in the wall an it is thin. Once I fish new wires I think the surrounds will get better. To compensate I am pushed the surround levels up.

Thanks!

 

[Ator]

Double check all of your connections especially between the AVR and the Emotiva.
These speakers should not sound weak. They may sound a little thin without the sub, but not weak.
They may be undersized for your listening habits, but I still would not expect them to sound weak. I believe you have the same horn I do.

Have you tried listening in pure direct stereo? Still weak?

I think that is where I messed up. I should have bought speakers to match my listening experience and goals. I get that I can't have exact live music punch but you would think I can get close given the range of technology options out there.

Also I listen to a wide range of music but mostly in the rock range. While I do listen loud at times (loud means you need to raise your voice to talk to another person) it feels like there is a missing range of sound and when you lower the volume it becomes more apparent. It seems like you need to push the volume to get the better ranges.

Now, I am picky about music and sounds and sometimes I think I'm sensitive to it. I do play piano and guitar so my ear is tuned into the nuances of a range of sound frequency. Maybe my expectation to live music is not reasonable.

Also by comparison I have a definitive technologies pro cinema 600 in our family room upstairs with a denon avr 1910 and it sounds great. I feel like it has a better dynamic range.

Thanks
Leo

 

[Ty Wayne]

I think that is where I messed up. I should have bought speakers to match my listening experience and goals. I get that I can't have exact live music punch but you would think I can get close given the range of technology options out there.

Also I listen to a wide range of music but mostly in the rock range. While I do listen loud at times (loud means you need to raise your voice to talk to another person) it feels like there is a missing range of sound and when you lower the volume it becomes more apparent. It seems like you need to push the volume to get the better ranges.

Now, I am picky about music and sounds and sometimes I think I'm sensitive to it. I do play piano and guitar so my ear is tuned into the nuances of a range of sound frequency. Maybe my expectation to live music is not reasonable.

Also by comparison I have a definitive technologies pro cinema 600 in our family room upstairs with a denon avr 1910 and it sounds great. I feel like it has a better dynamic range.

Thanks
Leo

You might be right. In fact, earlier I was thinking back at what you said in the beginning of your first post.......that you've had your Klipsch's for over a year and even with the RX A1020 you still felt like they weren't giving you what you wanted. Maybe your ears just don't prefer them? Maybe you expected the amp to change things, but power was never the problem? I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud I guess...

 

[KEW]

I am not surprised that the Emotiva doesn't add anything. The Yamaha should have enough power for Klipsch (which are known for their efficiency). Having the Emotiva just ensures power definitely is not the issue.
I have a friend who bi-amped his RF62II and he thought there was an improvement, but the fact that he thinks it and doesn't know means we are not talking a major difference.

I think of the Klipsch as the most "punchy" speakers among what you might find in your local B&M stores. The 5" drivers really should be able to perform well enough since you are offloading the bass from your mains! Double check that your mains are not running full-range. I don't know Yamaha's terms, but for Denon, the speakers need to be set to small and the subwoofer mode under bass settings should be set to LFE+Main (you can check to make sure the sub is playing when you listen to an audio only source like a CD. This would ensure the sub is set to play the low frequencies from the "Mains").

The fact that your center (with 4" drivers) passes muster is perplexing. I really hope the leads on one of the speakers got reversed because that would make better sense of it all.

Next time you run them, also feel the air coming out of the ports in the rear of the speakers (I think two per speaker IIRC). It should be roughly equal from all of the ports. On the left side, the ports are firing into a pocket. I don't believe that is an issue, but it is easy enough to pull it about 12" in front of your console as a test to see if there is any change.

Have you tried Pure Direct yet? This eliminates almost all processing, so rules out many factors that might cause the problem.

Evaluating your system before you mentioned any issues, the sub stands out as the weak link. Swapping your sub would definitely be money well spent. But I'm not sure it would fix your problem, so hold off if you don't have money for new speakers until we run our of options. You don't want to buy new speakers only to find out some snafu in the setup caused the issue.