Need a sub for under $300.

AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
Right, you can hear it, but doesn't it still really drop off around this range on even e.g. an x-sub? Yeah the frequency "response" is there, but how audible is it exactly?
 
Wafflesomd

Wafflesomd

Senior Audioholic
Don't you have to have extra equipment to calibrate those sub kits?
It wasn't a kit, it was the pre-made, plug and play 12"

Wmax thinks its a good deal, and if he thinks it's good, then it's good.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
I don't think your budget and your expectations for near 20 Hz performance are realistic...I would suggest either upping the budget or lowering your expectations on what you can get for 300 bucks.

I own the VX-10 and it does not have much below 35 Hz so definitely stay away if you're looking for strong LFE performance.

one more thing...if appearance isn't a huge issue then strongly consider the DIY sub route...you'll get more performance for $300 into a DIY sub if done well than buying from a B&M store.
 
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Wafflesomd

Wafflesomd

Senior Audioholic
I don't know why you would ever want 20hrtz from anything. Do you even know of a song that goes that low?

I cut 30hrtz and below on my 18's. If you don't they will just float right out of the basket.
 
AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
one more thing...if appearance isn't a huge issue then strongly consider the DIY sub route...you'll get more performance for $300 into a DIY sub if done well than buying from a B&M store.
Don't those require a lot of tuning and calibration using some expensive equipment though?

I don't know why you would ever want 20hrtz from anything. Do you even know of a song that goes that low?

I cut 30hrtz and below on my 18's. If you don't they will just float right out of the basket.
Not necessarily 20hz, just something that can dip down to 28 or so for some games/movies.

I am kind of thinking about waiting for the av123 x-sub to go b-stock.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know why you would ever want 20hrtz from anything. Do you even know of a song that goes that low?
Because the OP is using the system for movies and gaming. Not too much worried about music.

I am prospecting on building a 5.1 audio setup for 60% games, 30% movies, 10% music. Trying to stay under $1,000. My goal is details in voices and subtle sounds, NOT loudness. Bass is good, but being able to feel deep lows is a tad more important than hearing them to me. Appearance isn't terribly important.
 
Wafflesomd

Wafflesomd

Senior Audioholic
Don't those require a lot of tuning and calibration using some expensive equipment though?



Not necessarily 20hz, just something that can dip down to 28 or so for some games/movies.

I am kind of thinking about waiting for the av123 x-sub to go b-stock.
If you want 28hrtz, don't get anything below a 12" sub.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
It wasn't a kit, it was the pre-made, plug and play 12"

Wmax thinks its a good deal, and if he thinks it's good, then it's good.
The 10" and 12" Dayton pre-made subs are superb deals for the price. Just the enclosure + good plate amp included for that extremely low price are excellent(it costs substantially more to purchase a comparable pre-finished cabinet and amplifier as single products!), even if you minus the driver. You can replace the driver and re-tune the port(s) for the new driver and have an upgraded subwoofer in short order.

Certainly, better subwoofers exist -- but at this extreme low price point?

-Chris
 
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AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
Hmm...I just noticed something. I borrowed a Digital Video Essentials DVD, and it performed a few sweep tests. The lows started picking up on my mains right at about 50hz(ish.) According to the MFR specs, this is about where my mains should start to respond at.

When the subwoofer test came around, I was definitely able to both hear and feel this XB4 sub well into the lower 20's. According to MFR spec though, its frequency response bottoms out at 38hz.

What is the deal here? Am I only imagining this or smth? Anything about subwoofers that I am not understanding here? I opened the grill and put my finger up to the driver, and I can feel it vibrating faster and faster as it starts from 15hz and goes all the way up to 150, and it drops out somewhere around 145hz. Is there a flaw in my understanding of what exactly "frequency response" is supposed to mean? I have my onkyo SR605 volume set at 50 and the volume knob in the middle "balanced" position, and the speaker balance config screen has the sub set at 0db.

BTW, I really do enjoy this XB4 sub for the price. It does damn good for only $160, a hell of a lot better than all of the polk subs I have tried in fact, a few of the polks cost up in the $300 range too. Rather right now I am just trying to consider whether or not I should return it in favor of something better. It seems most people on this forum haven't tried the XB4. I wonder if I have something that is a little better than most pro's would expect given its specs?

There haven't been any pro reviews of this sub at all that I can find anywhere, so its hard to say. All of them are all amateur reviews.
 
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avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Hmm...I just noticed something. I borrowed a Digital Video Essentials DVD, and it performed a few sweep tests. The lows started picking up on my mains right at about 50hz(ish.) According to the MFR specs, this is about where my mains should start to respond at.

When the subwoofer test came around, I was definitely able to both hear and feel this XB4 sub well into the lower 20's. According to MFR spec though, its frequency response bottoms out at 38hz.

What is the deal here? Am I only imagining this or smth? Anything about subwoofers that I am not understanding here? I opened the grill and put my finger up to the driver, and I can feel it vibrating faster and faster as it starts from 15hz and goes all the way up to 150, and it drops out somewhere around 145hz. Is there a flaw in my understanding of what exactly "frequency response" is supposed to mean? I have my onkyo SR605 volume set at 50 and the volume knob in the middle "balanced" position, and the speaker balance config screen has the sub set at 0db.
First off I would recommend using an SPL meter to judge frequency rather than your ears/body. Also, individual test tones are better for this than a sweep as you can better see the linearity within the frequency range being played. The reason your sub is playing lower than it is rated is likely due to room interactions. Where you have your sub located in the room is possibly exciting room modes and thus causing more build up than in an anechoic chamber (where these specs are produced). An example of this is my sub and room interaction. My sub is rated down to 24Hz, but in my specific room and placement I get usable frequencies all the way down to 14-15Hz so I guess I am lucky ;).

Also, just because a subwoofer is rated down to X hertz doesn't mean the high pass filter is set at that number exactly, the high pass subwoofer is what determines how low a subwoofer will try to play. Also, there is no crossover that is a brick wall, some frequencies will make it by and this changes depending on the crossovers order (design). I think in general it is about 6dB per octave with a high pass.
 
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annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Why?

Cone size has nothing to do with FR. My 6.5" mains make it down to 33Hz.
Yes, but at what spl levels?

If you want room shaking bass at 28hz, it is much easier to achieve with a 12" driver as opposed to 15 6.5" drivers. :D
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Most high pass crossover design in use is typically of a second order variety, 12db/oct. Some subwoofer rca outputs I have seen use a 6db/oct. (1st order) highpass slope at 80hz. FOr the most part on modern electronics they are usually 2nd order or higher.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, but at what spl levels?

If you want room shaking bass at 28hz, it is much easier to achieve with a 12" driver as opposed to 15 6.5" drivers. :D
Now, you know what I meant.:rolleyes: I have heard many 10's that would smoke many 12's. Come on now, other people may get the wrong idea here.:eek::D
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Now, you know what I meant.:rolleyes: I have heard many 10's that would smoke many 12's. Come on now, other people may get the wrong idea here.:eek::D
Most 12" woofers will play deeper than their 10" counterparts mainly due to increased efficency of having more surface area. A 10" woofer will play the same frequency as a 12" but with much more excursion necessary at very low frequencies. When you reach the limits for linear excursion, the 10" will not play any deeper where the 12" could/will. The same goes for a 15" vs. a 12" and so on. If loud, deep bass (below 25hz) is wanted, it is much more easily achieved with a larger woofer. There are anomalies out there, but this is a general truth.

I do know what you meant. However, in most cases, the larger woofer is a better choice.
 
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Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
I do know what you meant. However, in most cases, the larger woofer is a better choice.
Most cases? I would say in the case of the same brand/model line.

Dollar for dollar? Depends.

Current situation, or in this case:
Competing brands at similar price-range(10"vs12")? Depends. If the 10" is the same price as the 12", the 10" may be of better quality, and have much more power.

Competing brands where the 10" is in a higher class/price-range. Probably not.

I know what you mean. And, you know what I mean. But, for many, they will see this and assume that in "most cases" the 12" will outperform the 10". That is just not fact.
 
A

AVTechnologyGuy

Audiophyte
You often get a lot of bang for your buck out of BIC speakers.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Most cases? I would say in the case of the same brand/model line.

Dollar for dollar? Depends.

Current situation, or in this case:
Competing brands at similar price-range(10"vs12")? Depends. If the 10" is the same price as the 12", the 10" may be of better quality, and have much more power.

Competing brands where the 10" is in a higher class/price-range. Probably not.

I know what you mean. And, you know what I mean. But, for many, they will see this and assume that in "most cases" the 12" will outperform the 10". That is just not fact.
Within the same product line it is almost always accurate. From brand to brand I would say it is accurate about 60%-70% of the time perhaps more. When you are talking a $1,000 10" vs. a $250 12" that is not a common sense comparison and will result in highly skewed results.

The other thing that comes into play is the enclosure design. One must compare sealed to sealed and ported to ported.

More power does not mean lower frequency response. Either a 10" has sunstantially more excursion capability to allow it to play deeper than a 12" in a sealed application or it is tuned lower in a ported application (and could also have higher excursion capability). Otherwise the 12" should trump the 10" in low end response nearly every time. It is simply more efficient at playing a lower frequency.

So realistically, yes, it is a fact if the drivers themselves are compared with other variables being equal. Note the Fs on most subs especially those from the same manufacturer in the same series, the larger the woofer the lower the Fs.

Here is an example. Let's say two woofers, a 12" and a 10", from the same manufacturer and same series are playing a 30hz note at 100db. The 10" woofer is playing at 95% of it's excursion capability while the 12" is at merely 75%. If we lower the frequency to 20hz the 12" will become louder as the 10" will no longer be able to increase in volume as its excursion threshold is reached. The 12" may now be at 100% of its linear capability (at 20hz) while the 10" would need to be at 125% of its linear capability to keep up resulting in much distortion. The power output would need to be backed off to keep the 10" at its linear threshold resulting in lower output. It is not saying the 10" cannot play 20hz, it is just that the output, if kept linear, is not nearly as useable as the 12". Therefore the 12" "plays deeper".

What I am saying is not that the 10" driver cannot produce the low frequencies, it is just you get more useable low frequency response with a larger driver due to its increased efficiency at all frequencies.:D

I hope this makes some sense and I did not create more confusion. Sometimes I have a tendency to do that. :p
 

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