Need a little advice on some AR Mono Block Amplifiers...and Speaker wires

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the offer lovinthehd, but I'm looking for something already manufactured. ;)

I really have no idea where to even go looking. Any hints will be appreciated.
I don't really keep track of that as cable aesthetic means little to me. Believe Gene was referring to his Kimber speaker cables of the twisted style (wanna say 8TC model?). I'd just diy any special look needed, there are a variety of products you can dress 'em up with.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for the offer lovinthehd, but I'm looking for something already manufactured. ;)
Just get a sharpie and write "Manufactured By HD Inc" along the length of the cables. Add another zero to the cost and boom, you have true audiophile cables. Only I'll bet HD Inc doesn't add any woo.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just get a sharpie and write "Manufactured By HD Inc" along the length of the cables. Add another zero to the cost and boom, you have true audiophile cables. Only I'll bet HD Inc doesn't add any woo.
You forgot the directional arrows! :)
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Sounds like you guys are as stuck as I am on these cables...
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Have you checked out bluejeanscable.com as suggested earlier? Good stuff.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hi lovinthehd,

Thanks for the post but you are slipping a bit my friend. A few posts back (#58) I mentioned both Bluejeans cables, and Monoprice, as I had looked at both.

I was shocked the Monoprice had 16 AWG conductors whereas the Bluejeans cable ( Belden 1800F ) has 24 AWG for the Balance Cable. So I was looking for comments by the learned members here. I'm assuming the Neutrik NC3-B series XLR connectors from Bluejeans is better than the unnamed Monoprice connector - but I have no data to back that up. ????

I was hoping someone would know of a more "dressed up" version that had good specs.

Thanks for the assist.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hi lovinthehd,

Thanks for the post but you are slipping a bit my friend. A few posts back (#58) I mentioned both Bluejeans cables, and Monoprice, as I had looked at both.

I was shocked the Monoprice had 16 AWG conductors whereas the Bluejeans cable ( Belden 1800F ) has 24 AWG for the Balance Cable. So I was looking for comments by the learned members here. I'm assuming the Neutrik NC3-B series XLR connectors from Bluejeans is better than the unnamed Monoprice connector - but I have no data to back that up. ????

I was hoping someone would know of a more "dressed up" version that had good specs.

Thanks for the assist.
Was going by my poor memory somewhat :) Finding actual measurements/specs for cables can be hard but for the relatively short distances of most interconnects even balanced/xlr type connections are more overkill than anything. I wouldn't worry about the gauge for shorter runs particularly. Neutrik is one of the best connectors out there, I use both their XLR and SpeakOn connectors on diy stuff (making my own cables). Dressed up just depends more on what that aesthetic is worth to you....it's overvalued IMO. Even the brand that sort of pokes fun at the world of cable called World's Best Cables (available on Amazon) uses good cable stock and connectors, so maybe look at those. Catering to silly audiophilia can be hard.
 
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-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hi lovinthehd,

Thanks for continuing to post.

The Balanced Cable run between the Pre-Amp & Amp is 30 Feet which at first glance thought is significant considering the maximum voltage output at the pre-amp is about 1 volt. 24 AWG copper is ~26 Ohms / 1000 feet and 16 AWG is only about 4.4 Ohms (depending on stranding) - about 6 times more resistance for the Bluejeans version. Even though my instinct is the Bluejeans cable is probably better constructed, and may have a better connector, I've been stumbling on this point. I realize the balanced input impedance of the AR Model Reference 600 Amplifier is 200 K Ohms, but I was stuck in the minutiae as my premise is to have the Cables as transparent as possible to the system.

As silly as their name is World's Best Cables has decent specs, and uses Neutrik connectors like Bluejeans, but with a 4 conductor shielded cable and multi-strand wrapped shield. According to the Mogami literature:

"Mogami Neglex quad cable is perfect cable for home studios suffering from wiring and grounding problems. Mogami 2534 should also be used where intense RFI interference is a problem. Mogami 2534 provides an improvement in signal to noise of 10-20db over equivalent twisted pair cables. Double conductors quad cables are more effective in canceling noise that can get past even the best of shields and is critical in an environment of high RF and EM interference."



These comments would help me better address the comments from my friend's Security Security Tech (see my earlier posts) who advised that he thinks it could be RF noise from the VHS radios on the Boats / Ships going by, or the many (30?) wireless RF Security Cameras around the property.

It seems my choices are Bluejeans, Monoprice & the World's Best Cables. All are not "purdy" but maybe I can make them so later if my friend so desires. I just want this to work!

I'm leaning towards the World's Best Cables (OMG I hate that name!) as the Mogami 2534 cable seems a bit superior to the Belden 1800F and I don't have to import it into Canada as Amazon.ca handles it. (If there was no Covid I'd be able to get the Bluejeans Cables easier => but that's a whole other story...) Hopefully the sizes needed are available on Amazon Prime. I'll go shopping and advise what I purchase.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hi lovinthehd,

Thanks for continuing to post.

The Balanced Cable run between the Pre-Amp & Amp is 30 Feet which at first glance thought is significant considering the maximum voltage output at the pre-amp is about 1 volt. 24 AWG copper is ~26 Ohms / 1000 feet and 16 AWG is only about 4.4 Ohms (depending on stranding) - about 6 times more resistance for the Bluejeans version. Even though my instinct is the Bluejeans cable is probably better constructed, and may have a better connector, I've been stumbling on this point. I realize the balanced input impedance of the AR Model Reference 600 Amplifier is 200 K Ohms, but I was stuck in the minutiae as my premise is to have the Cables as transparent as possible to the system.

As silly as their name is World's Best Cables has decent specs, and uses Neutrik connectors like Bluejeans, but with a 4 conductor shielded cable and multi-strand wrapped shield. According to the Mogami literature:

"Mogami Neglex quad cable is perfect cable for home studios suffering from wiring and grounding problems. Mogami 2534 should also be used where intense RFI interference is a problem. Mogami 2534 provides an improvement in signal to noise of 10-20db over equivalent twisted pair cables. Double conductors quad cables are more effective in canceling noise that can get past even the best of shields and is critical in an environment of high RF and EM interference."



These comments would help me better address the comments from my friend's Security Security Tech (see my earlier posts) who advised that he thinks it could be RF noise from the VHS radios on the Boats / Ships going by, or the many (30?) wireless RF Security Cameras around the property.

It seems my choices are Bluejeans, Monoprice & the World's Best Cables. All are not "purdy" but maybe I can make them so later if my friend so desires. I just want this to work!

I'm leaning towards the World's Best Cables (OMG I hate that name!) as the Mogami 2534 cable seems a bit superior to the Belden 1800F and I don't have to import it into Canada as Amazon.ca handles it. (If there was no Covid I'd be able to get the Bluejeans Cables easier => but that's a whole other story...) Hopefully the sizes needed are available on Amazon Prime. I'll go shopping and advise what I purchase.
But WBC even comes with directional arrows! I forgot you did have a long run, so a higher gauge may be in order....doesn't bluejeanscable also do somewhat custom work as far as that and length goes? Been a while since I looked there.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
I didn't see any customization on the Balanced Cables at Bluejeans.

The directional arrows on the WBC RCA Cables refer to their belief that you need to ground the shield at the source end (which they do inside the Eminence Gold Locking RCA Connectors) while letting the other end "float". They believe that maximizes the noise shielding like a Faraday Cage, which would give inferior performance if you grounded both ends, or let both ends float. They say the cable will work if corrected in the wrong direction but will diminish the noise rejection capabilities of the cable. I'm hoping they did some verifiable test work to support this claim.

I'm looking at these RCAs primarily as they have Eminence Gold locking connectors like the MIT cables they will replace (which I think my friend likes) and also have Mogami 2534 cable => as do the Balanced Cables (when over 10 feet - so the short Balanced Cable pair will get longer).

Unless I find something else that has better data tonight, I'll pull the trigger and get them on order from Amazon.ca.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I didn't see any customization on the Balanced Cables at Bluejeans.

The directional arrows on the WBC RCA Cables refer to their belief that you need to ground the shield at the source end (which they do inside the Eminence Gold Locking RCA Connectors) while letting the other end "float". They believe that maximizes the noise shielding like a Faraday Cage, which would give inferior performance if you grounded both ends, or let both ends float. They say the cable will work if corrected in the wrong direction but will diminish the noise rejection capabilities of the cable. I'm hoping they did some verifiable test work to support this claim.

I'm looking at these RCAs primarily as they have Eminence Gold locking connectors like the MIT cables they will replace (which I think my friend likes) and also have Mogami 2534 cable => as do the Balanced Cables (when over 10 feet - so the short Balanced Cable pair will get longer).

Unless I find something else that has better data tonight, I'll pull the trigger and get them on order from Amazon.ca.
I can't imagine anything MIT has to offer has any grounding in reality....it's a fantasy brand. Good luck in getting your friend's odd perceptions in order....but I'd still contact either WBC or bluejeanscable with a customization request....your friend with the odd opinions may appreciate the customization.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
I decided to check out the pricing and stock on the WBC cables on Amazon.com tonight.

The reseller (PTS Canada) didn’t have them in stock in Canada on Amazon.ca, and was just going to drop ship them from the WBC Amazon Store’s warehouse in the USA, and pocket a very healthy profit (for basically doing nothing). I have an account on both versions of Amazon, and use the one that fits my needs best.

I decided to order all the cables from WBC's Amazon Store tonight as I'd done enough mucking about on this and I just wanted to keep it simple & get this done.

It included a 3 Foot – Directional Quad High-Definition Audio Interconnect Cable Pair – Using Mogami 2534 Wire and Eminence Gold Locking RCA Connectors. I bet lovinthehd is laughing right now. This is as "custom" as I'm going. ;)

Delivery (due to crossing the border I guess) is going to take until August 30th. Normally (meaning pre-covid) I'd just have them shipped free to a drop box in Point Roberts Washington, which is 10 minutes from my Mom's place in Tsawwassen. Normally (meaning pre-covid) she goes there for cheap gas, and will pick stuff I order up for me as required. I've had everything from Water Skis, to a set of Run Flat Tires, to three HSU CCB-8s shipped this way.

I advised my friend of the ball park cost (goods crossing the border sometimes attract fees & taxes that are unexpected) and he is happy - and a little surprised they weren't much more expensive! He said he was going to buy them regardless of what price they were => before I told him the cost.

Now I'll just hurry up and wait! :cool:
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I decided to check out the pricing and stock on the WBC cables on Amazon.com tonight.

The reseller (PTS Canada) didn’t have them in stock in Canada on Amazon.ca, and was just going to drop ship them from the WBC Amazon Store’s warehouse in the USA, and pocket a very healthy profit (for basically doing nothing). I have an account on both versions of Amazon, and use the one that fits my needs best.

I decided to order all the cables from WBC's Amazon Store tonight as I'd done enough mucking about on this and I just wanted to keep it simple & get this done.

It included a 3 Foot – Directional Quad High-Definition Audio Interconnect Cable Pair – Using Mogami 2534 Wire and Eminence Gold Locking RCA Connectors. I bet lovinthehd is laughing right now. This is as "custom" as I'm going. ;)

Delivery (due to crossing the border I guess) is going to take until August 30th. Normally (meaning pre-covid) I'd just have them shipped free to a drop box in Point Roberts Washington, which is 10 minutes from my Mom's place in Tsawwassen. Normally (meaning pre-covid) she goes there for cheap gas, and will pick stuff I order up for me as required. I've had everything from Water Skis, to a set of Run Flat Tires, to three HSU CCB-8s shipped this way.

I advised my friend of the ball park cost (goods crossing the border sometimes attract fees & taxes that are unexpected) and he is happy - and a little surprised they weren't much more expensive! He said he was going to buy them regardless of what price they were => before I told him the cost.

Now I'll just hurry up and wait! :cool:
Coulda just gone diy and profited some :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
@-Jim- otoh I do respect your persistence in satisfying the silly audiophilia involved....
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hi Gents,

Today I went over to my friends with the new cables and installed them into his system. I was very methodical and triple checked each connection before powering anything up. Looking around the rear of the components I noticed some of the other cables are simple RCA types (with no Boxes), so I dutifully pointed them out.

During one of my triple checks (the last one) I pointed out his Maxx speakers were connected to the 8 ohm output of the Audio Research Reference 600 Amplifiers. (He had swapped out the MIT Speaker Cables for a "standard" pair without boxes.) I advised I thought based on the Stereophile Magazine review (see links above) that these should be on the 4 Ohm connectors. He said the Distributor (Sound Room) and the Wilson Techs all knew and approved of this connection when installed. He wanted to light them up. So as a compromise I said, let's keep the volume low until we get confirmation from Wilson and Audio Research.

We warmed up the Amps & Pre-Amps for over half an hour before trying to amplify a signal. While waiting I took a photo of the Specifications Page for the Wilson Maxx Speakers while reviewing his hard copies of the manuals.

Initially he played a record on the turntable but we got no sound when "Phono" was selected on the Audio Research Reference 1 Pre-Amplifier. So after checking a lot of connections, I put a CD into the Mark Levinson No.31 Reference CD transport, changed the selector (after ramping down the Gain, putting the system in mute) then ramping up and we got sound. (Tube systems require such a ritual every time you change sources.) So then I went looking in more depth at the Phono connections but still found nothing. Then my friend started rotating the selector knob on the Reference 1 Pre-Amp, and when he stopped on Aux 1 there was the sound from the turntable. So I checked where the Audio Research Reference Phono Preamplifier was connected to the Reference 1 Pre-Amp; and yes someone had the RCA inputs going there. Yes there is a large separate Phono Preamplifier. There's separate boxes for almost everything. ( 3 separate components for the Mark Levinson CD equipment too!)

I was surprised at the Aux 1 connection, and it took me a while to come up with a theory. I suspected someone didn't want to input the output from the Phono Preamp into the Phono input of the Reference 1 Pre-Amp; as it would be injecting a "line" signal into an input expecting the unamplified low level signal from a phono cartridge. Well that sounded rational to me (at least at the time) as every preamp with a manufacture date since the late 60's I'd seen with a Phono input, had a built in RIAA preamplifier circuit to boost the signal enough before pushing it onto the preamp stage. This is an expensive Tube based system, and my experience is almost exclusively solid state, but I thought the basics should hold. So as we had success, I left it and researched it tonight.

I actually got all the manuals from Audio Research Manuals whereas there were not there previously. They were actually the same as I had found years earlier by scouring the web, but they were far better resolution that those scanned copies. The Reference 1 Pre-Amp manual is very poorly written (especially for something from the USA) and only infers that there is no RIAA preamplifier circuit. On page 4 it mentions a Gain Increase for the outputs and explains it with "This allows greater reserve gain for low-gain phono preamplifiers with low-output moving-coil cartridges." So from that I assume you can (and probably should so folks who operate it aren't confused) move the connection to Phono on the Reference 1 Pre-Amp. (My friend had tape labels on the cables designating they go to Aux 1 but no memory as to why.)

So I'm looking for input. Does my logic sound reasonable? Do you see any downside?

Other than that glitch, everything went fine. The system sounded amazing. Even though my friend is a vinyl fan, I played CDs instead as he had some more to my tastes, and there is less ritual changing them versus records. My friend (and his wife) were very pleased and appreciated it working so much. They were saying it had not run in about 10 years! (I can't believe it's been that long since I heard it. But as they say -time flies. They could be right.) My friend did turn it up quite loud but it was only drawing about 5 watts average on the meters.

Just before I left he called the previous owner of the Sound Room while I was there, who gave him the name & cell number of the new local Wilson distributor. The old owner of the Sound Room insisted the 8 ohm connection was correct. The new Wilson Rep said the Wilson Speakers were 4 Ohm, “but we always connect them to the 8 ohm output on those ARs”.

I had left my Friend after discussing again my concerns about connecting his Maxx speakers to the 8 ohm outputs.

My biggest surprise was when I got home and after dinner was reviewing the photo of the Spec Sheet. I was surprised that there was no Nominal Impedance in the specifications. (Even really crappy speakers make up something.) Then I noticed right at the bottom of the sheet it said Wilson Audio- X-1 Grand Slamm (and not Wilson Maxx). OMG ! That’s a huge difference. Check out page 45 => Wilson X-1 Grand Slamm

Check out Stereophiles Review Here

By the way, Stereophile Magazine in 1995 (the year of release - my friend bought his in 1999) had awarded the Product of the Year to the Wilson Audio Specialties X-1/Grand SLAMM loudspeaker as well as their Loudspeaker of the Year & Editor's Choice Awards.

They measure / define the Nominal Impedance as 5 ohms. I never found it in the manual. They go on to say:

“In the event, the Wilson presents a relatively easy load to an amplifier (fig.6). It's not quite classifiable as an "8 ohm" loudspeaker, which is defined as having a minimum magnitude of 6.4 ohms, though it comes close. For example, in music's main power band (120Hz-10kHz), the loading does not fall below 6 ohms, and averages 7.3 ohms. The magnitude does drop from 5 ohms at 15kHz to 3.2 ohms at 20kHz, which will give rise to some "dulling" of the treble balance both with SE-type amplifiers and with others featuring a higher-than-usual output impedance (1-3 ohms, say). Conversely, the X-1's commendably uniform mid-band impedance means that it will remain neutrally balanced with many tube power amplifiers.”

Needless to say, I'm a bit more comfortable with these connected to the 8 ohm outputs.

They look like these but have Spikes and not casters!

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Why would a phono stage in this (or any other) pre-amp not include both RIAA and gain suited for cartridges? I would also use the aux 1 input if I had an external phono stage, tho.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Why would a phono stage in this (or any other) pre-amp not include both RIAA and gain suited for cartridges?
I agree that is the norm. I think AR's unexplained underlying premise is for separate boxes for everything. I did a bit more digging into the Reference 1 Pre-Amp manual, and on page 2 (page 9 in the PDF) under Input Selector: ...."Phono" for phono preamplifiers"..."Aux" (1-3) for any additional high level source-tape, tuner, CD, video, etc.

My friend contacted me again to thank me for my efforts (nice) and reconfirmed the speakers are X-1/Grand SLAMM. And shockingly on the nameplate it says they are 8 Ohm!

X-1-Grand SLAMM Speaker Nameplate.jpg
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Gents,

I apologize for the error in speaker model designation. It sent us all down the wrong rabbit hole, and wasted your time. I don't know how that happened, and it could have been prevented if I'd walked around a speaker, and checked out it's nameplate - years ago!

The only items remaining are the input location for the Phono Pre-Amp, and possibly replacing any existing MIT interconnect cables on the remaining components that have "boxes" on them.

I guess I could tackle his Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck. We (just for grins) popped a tape into the unit, and while it begrudgingly fast forwarded it, we couldn't get it to play in either direction. I suspect a drive belt (or 2) has snapped off as you could hear the motor and transport mechanisms. He has a second Nakamichi cassette deck beside the Dragon, but I didn't catch the model for it. The Dragon was a "Halo" product for Nakamichi, well beyond a mere mortals' pocketbook (as was all of the gear in this room.)

Thanks for your patience and all the comments to date. ;)
 
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Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Why would a phono stage in this (or any other) pre-amp not include both RIAA and gain suited for cartridges? I would also use the aux 1 input if I had an external phono stage, tho.
I'm guessing the Ref 1 behaves more as a 'line stage' and the phono input is intended for that of a phono-pre. I know for a fact that is the intended use of my ARC LS-28
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm guessing the Ref 1 behaves more as a 'line stage' and the phono input is intended for that of a phono-pre. I know for a fact that is the intended use of my ARC LS-28
So separate phono pre vs RIAA stages? Weird.
 

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