My quest for stereo loudspeakers under $3,000

[Steve81]

I'm not sure I have ever listen to music at 105 freaking db @ 3m have you

Certainly not very often, though for kicks I broke out Omnimic during one "cranked to 11" listening session and recorded a peak of 118dB. Average levels were of course much, much lower.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I would hate to listen to a THX standard peak of 105dB.

And I assume that is TOTAL SUMMED SPL from all five speakers?

Hope that's NOT from ONE speaker!

1 speaker 105dB
2 speakers = 108dB
4 speakers = 111 dB.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I would hate to listen to a THX standard peak of 105dB.

And I assume that is TOTAL SUMMED SPL from all five speakers?

Hope that's NOT from ONE speaker!

1 speaker 105dB
2 speakers = 108dB
4 speakers = 111 dB.

Good point, I bet they do mean 5.1, for the 85/105 standard.

 

[Steve81]

And I assume that is TOTAL SUMMED SPL from all five speakers?

Hope that's NOT from ONE speaker!

Each channel has a potential peak of 105dB except for the LFE, which is 115dB. With the typical 80Hz XO and bass summing to the subwoofer, you could potentially see a 123dB peak.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/subwoofer-room-size

The standard calibration "Reference Level" (RL) is 75dB at the listening position. The goal is to ensure the system calibrated at 75dB can hit clean 105 dB peaks for each of the speaker channels and 115 dB peaks for the LFE channel. Note that the LFE channel is boosted 10 dB over the speaker channels. Technically speaking, most people redirect the bass from other channels to the subwoofer, which in conjunction with LFE could in theory ask the sub for a 123dB peak signal. However this is NOT a common scenario and most people don't listen at reference levels (especially if they value their long term hearing).

 

[PENG]

Each channel has a potential peak of 105dB except for the LFE, which is 115dB. With the typical 80Hz XO and bass summing to the subwoofer, you could potentially see a 123dB peak.

Audioholics Subwoofer Room Size Rating Protocol | Audioholics

The 85/105 thing is from THX.

 

[Steve81]

The 85/105 thing is from THX.

THX is the same in that regard:

Feature Article

Reference level is by any definition, objective or subjective, quite loud. It basically mirrors the dynamic range of the studio system, which in the case of all movie sound tracks, is 105 dB. Any single channel of the system is calibrated to play 0 dB FSD (the loudest sound the sound track can contain) at 105 dB (115 dB for the LFE channel). While that is really, REALLY loud, its important to remember that there is 105 dB of dynamic range and the artist can put a sound at any level they want.

 

[Steve81]

Yeah, I would hate to listen to a THX standard peak of 105dB.

I very rarely push my system up to full reference, though IME some movies are much more tolerable than others. The Star Wars Ep III BR comes to mind as being fairly listenable at that level, which isn't a big surprise coming from Lucasfilm.

 

[perpetualglass]

I think I found the winner. They're so popular, that they're nowhere to be found.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Each channel has a potential peak of 105dB except for the LFE, which is 115dB. With the typical 80Hz XO and bass summing to the subwoofer, you could potentially see a 123dB peak.

Audioholics Subwoofer Room Size Rating Protocol | Audioholics

That could get pretty loud.

123dB peak for even 2 seconds is too much for me. I don't like THX.

 

[Steve81]

123dB peak for even 2 seconds is too much for me. I don't like THX.

To be fair, 123dB is just a theoretical number; all channels peaking simultaneously doesn't really happen outside of lab conditions.

 

[perpetualglass]

First impression after setting up my Aperion Verus Grands, this is precisely what I'm looking for in a loudspeaker, neutral, a tad bit warm in all of the right places. Also a bit boomy, but nothing that Q plugs couldn't fix, and probably has more to do with my own room acoustics, although the B&W CM9s never suffered from that. Now it's time to break them in, after which, I'll reassess them. And very critically, since they have woofers and mids composed of my despised material... Kevlar.

 

[Goat1]

Just curious,if you don't like Kevlar,why did you buy them? I thought the CM9's were overrated for the price. The Aperions sound better. I ultimately went with the Martin Logan EM ESL's,they sounded the best to me,at least in my room. The Aperions are really heavy and they aren't fun to return,believe me I know.

 

[perpetualglass]

It has become apparent, with less than 4 hours of break in, that the bottom end on these Verus Grands is SLOPPY and BOOMY, completely unacceptable for me. This is not the type of the thing that will improve with break in. The midrange and highs in these are quite nice, though, and I expect them to improve, but who knows how much. If I disconnect the woofers, they sound pretty good.

On the upside, I believe these towers sound well tuned... "fast", with that "Kevlar Punch" that only this material could produce, or at least back when it made its' way into mid to high end drivers for car audio. There is none of the shrill ear daggers that have presented themselves so powerfully in the B&W CM9s and lower end models. I do think these are all around, quite wonderful. They remind me of some of the higher end home audio speakers (of the mid fi line) that Polk produced somewhere around the early 2000s, even though, the speakers that I referenced were free of this magical ballistic material. I'm sure there are other examples out there, but with my limited experience, this is how Kevlar is "supposed" to sound.

At this point, I wish Ascend would get their damn RAAL shipment, so I could simply stop by their place and hear a side by side. At least I baby my gear enough, and have enough experience with packing and loading to get these things back in "Like New" condition.

 

[TLS Guy]

It has become apparent, with less than 4 hours of break in, that the bottom end on these Verus Grands is SLOPPY and BOOMY, completely unacceptable for me. This is not the type of the thing that will improve with break in. The midrange and highs in these are quite nice, though, and I expect them to improve, but who knows how much. If I disconnect the woofers, they sound pretty good.

On the upside, I believe these towers sound well tuned... "fast", with that "Kevlar Punch" that only this material could produce, or at least back when it made its' way into mid to high end drivers for car audio. There is none of the shrill ear daggers that have presented themselves so powerfully in the B&W CM9s and lower end models. I do think these are all around, quite wonderful. They remind me of some of the higher end home audio speakers (of the mid fi line) that Polk produced somewhere around the early 2000s, even though, the speakers that I referenced were free of this magical ballistic material. I'm sure there are other examples out there, but with my limited experience, this is how Kevlar is "supposed" to sound.

At this point, I wish Ascend would get their damn RAAL shipment, so I could simply stop by their place and hear a side by side. At least I baby my gear enough, and have enough experience with packing and loading to get these things back in "Like New" condition.

Cones don't have a sound in good drivers. It is the implementation.

You sound like me auditioning commercial speakers. That is why I roll my own.

It sounds to me as if you need to go to electrostatics, or a properly designed TL

Ported Qb4 boxes are inherently resonant, but they can be damped to the "red line." However commercial speakers never are, as the firms play the numbers game.

I have a feeling you will not be satisfied unless you up your budget a lot or build your own.

Don't get hung up on driver type. There is nothing inherently superior about a ribbon. It is overall design implementation that counts. We now know you need a low Qts design

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't get hung up on driver type. There is nothing inherently superior about a ribbon. It is overall design implementation that counts.

+ 1.

... Driver type & material...... Driver sizes....... I wouldn't worry about that.

It's all about the overall design implementation.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wish Ascend would get their damn RAAL shipment, so I could simply stop by their place and hear a side by side.

Just compare w/ the regular Sierra towers. As TLS Guy says, I wouldn't worry about the driver type.

 

[VicTorious1]

At this point, I wish Ascend would get their damn RAAL shipment, so I could simply stop by their place and hear a side by side.

So Ascend doesn't keep a Sierra Tower with RAAL prototype on site? The only way to listen to one on their premises is by listening to stock that has been ordered and completed but not yet shipped?

If the RAAL is known to sound slightly better than the dome, why not audition it with the dome to see if you find any deficiencies otherwise?

 

[NewHTbuyer]

From reading your descriptions of what you don't like about each speaker you hae tried, I tend to agree with TLS Guy, you will probably need to increase your budget. You are unlikely to find a speaker that does everything you want it to do well at this price. Just my opinion.

Also, can you give a specific example of a song or track that demonstrated the poor midrange on the Ultra Towers? Thanks

 

[PENG]

From reading your descriptions of what you don't like about each speaker you hae tried, I tend to agree with TLS Guy, you will probably need to increase your budget. You are unlikely to find a speaker that does everything you want it to do well at this price. Just my opinion.

If one were to increase the budget from $3K, to say $6K, I have to say that I have not seen any speakers under 15K (actually perhaps regardless of price) with better published specs back by 3rd parties measurements better than the KEF 201/2. Too bad, for those who must have towers... Otherwise the 201/2 is probably the safest bet for anyone who is after neutral/accurate sound quality and is unable to audition too many speakers.

 

[Goat1]

Have you ever looked into Monitor Audio RX8's? Just might be what you are looking for. They are really nice. What is your crossover settings on your verus grands? You should put them around 80 hz,that's what I did when I had them and the boominess is gone. I know the exact sound your talking about. That's Why I like the logan's with a sub,without they are very good also. But the RX8's,I had those too and they are great.