wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Hello all, I’ve been reading here for about 6 months. First of all - thank you all for the advice and quality content on this forum, I’ve spent many hours reading and poking around and its helped tremendously in formulating my plans so far!

I’m of the opinion that the thought, research, and discussion that go into a large purchase are often just as much fun as the actual purchase itself. So I’m going to use this thread to document the research, purchase, assembly, and calibration of my first (but likely not my last) home theater setup. During this process I’d love to get comments, suggestions, and advice from you all. I will post pictures and my impressions of products as things progress, frequency response curves, and any key articles or lessons learned here as well.

So here are my plans so far. My wife and I have started building a larger home a few miles north of where I currently live in Fort Worth TX. After a few months of working on (um, I mean discussing with) her I finally got the WAF necessary to put in space for a home theater room over the garage. Below are my drawings of the available space and where in general I’m planning on placing equipment, speakers, furniture, etc. These were done in Visio for those who are curious- it’s a fairly decent 2D layout package.

The views show some cabinetry – I plan on building this myself once I get the equipment in. It helps greatly with the WAF and also gives me a place to hide the electronics and most of the wiring. Fortunately I have a nice workshop and a little know-how – the builder quoted almost $4k to put this in, I can do it for around 10-15% of that.

You can also see it’s a slightly odd-shaped room in profile. This is because of the roofline / front elevation and cannot be changed. I’m no room mode expert, but it seems to me that perhaps this arrangement may help reduce the effects of some resonance front-to-back in the room. Also, the placement of the window forces me to use the room sideways as opposed to lengthwise. The window is there for the WAF and will be completely covered during regular viewing. Not ideal, but definitely workable.

You may also notice I haven’t placed the sub yet- I’m planning on the back right corner but will wait until I have some chance to play with placement to finalize.

At this point I should mention that I have two young children (5 and less than 1), and the wife is a stay-at-home mom, which places the two main constraints on the design-

#1: relatively limited budget (more on that below)

#2: equipment must be out of the way for WAF and practical protection purposes. While I’d love a set of monstrous towers for the fronts my heart (and wallet) could not take a damaged woofer or broken electronics from an errant soccerball / curious hands / foot. While this is a constraint, there’s the side benefit that hidden equipment and bookshelf speakers greatly increase the WAF and therefore my freedom in purchasing the equipment in the first place.

Onto the equipment I’m looking at, and the associated budgets. These by no means represent the final decisions, but are the ones that passed the budget, WAF, and “good reviews” criteria. I’d love to hear comments and suggestions!

Projector ($1500-$2000): I will be watching a mix of HD and DVD with occasional SD thrown in, so I’m looking at WXGA (1280 x 720). The viewing distance will be 10’ and I’m looking for a screen width of around 75” in 16:9 format. Based on comments here and the good folks over at projectorcentral.com, I’m looking at the Panasonic PT-AE700U or Z3. It seems that at this point LCD is whupping up on the DLP crowd in price/performance. Right now I’m leaning toward the Panny, but I haven’t had a chance to compare it to the Z3.

Screen: ($100)- I know, you can’t get a real screen at this price. I’m planning on a DIY for the time being until I can put together a real screen. I’ve seen a number of DIY screens with commercial and specialty paints on hardboard and I’ve been impressed with what can be done for next to nothing.

Receiver ($350-$550): My predominant application here is home theater. I’d love to go separates but the budget simply won’t allow it at this point. I’d be running a DVD player, Xbox through this on day one, and eventually will run a cable box and HTPC. I need 3 component video inputs and video conversion from composite and S-video to component. Very high on the desired features is a way to calibrate and equalize as well. Right now I’m looking at the Denon 2805 and the Yamaha RX-V2500. Both have pre-out sections so if I want to do a separate amp later down the road I can. I’ve listened to both and was pleased. The Yammy has a few more HT processing options but it’s also hard to find under $650.

DVD Player (already have): Right now I have a Denon 1710 which is their low-end progressive player. Eventually this will probably get moved to the family room to make way for something a little nicer but for now it gets the job done.

Room treatments ($0 for now): Wow can you go crazy here, but I want a working system first and budget doesn’t allow for it just yet. The walls are drywall, the floor is a medium carpet. I’m hoping that between that and the shape I don’t have too much issue with room modes or the “clap test”. I’d love any input out there as to the best way to treat a room on a budget (and with WAF).

Sub equalization ($100):
Since this is a small room and I don’t have the budget to drop thousands on room treatments I will likely have to do some active EQ to tame some low frequency room modes. I’ve read a number of great things about the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD), so this is on the shopping list.

Speakers ($850): I’m going to start with a 5.1 system based on budget and eventually move up to 7.1. As mentioned above I’m looking at bookshelves all the way around. I’ve done a little listening at local HT shops (and the major electronics chains) and I tend to be drawn toward a neutral speaker (i.e. not too bright, which I’m assuming means favoring high frequencies, and not too warm, which I’m assuming means favoring mid-low frequencies). To keep it in budget I’m looking at Ascend CBM-170s, Atlantic Technology T90 or 920s, Aperion 522Ds, and Axiom M3tis. Based on reviews and forum comments I’m very heavily leaning toward the Ascends but will try and find someone local so I can demo before throwing down the cash. This is the one component that I go back and forth the most on.

Subwoofer: ($450): A HT without LF extension is not HT in my opinion. I want to feel it through the floor and in my chest. I want to be able to jiggle knick-knacks off the shelves when the wife and kids are away. I spent a bit of time trying to cheapen this component up in the budget but when I went to audition I was completely disappointed by most everything below $350 - not enough extension, not enough cajones (SPL), or sounding like the same note was playing over and over regardless of the actual input. I’m leaning toward the SVS PB10-ISD but am keeping my eye on the Hsu lines as well in the same price point. I’ve seen occasionally people comment that this sub is not “tight enough” but at this point extension is worth more than pure musicality. I’m hoping to tame that somewhat with EQ.

Remote ($125) / IR Repeater ($75): All equipment is going into a cabinet at the front of the room that will be closed during operation for noise and light purposes. For WAF (and cool factor) I’m looking at the Logitech / Harmony 676 remote and have already purchased a sexy little repeater which simply replaces a battery in the remote with a wireless transmitter that talks to a base-station / IR repeater in the equipment cabinet.

Interconnects / Wiring: I have little interest (or money for) snake-oil and snobbery. I’m going with some basic interconnects that maintain the transmission line impedance well and some 16 AWG from home depot.

Calibration / Equalization: I already own a copy of Avia and the Rat-shack analog SPL meter. Haven’t really played with them much yet, but I may play with them soon on my current HT setup.

All in I’m hoping to build this system for around $3500 minus furniture and my own blood,sweat, and tears. I know this is what some of you may spend on a good set of front speakers or an automation system, but hey, it’s a start!

The home is in its early construction phases – they are just now completing the rough framing and starting on the electrical wiring and HVAC. In a few weeks after the electrical inspection I’ll be going in to place my speaker wire, subwoofer cable and component video cable in the walls.

One last note – I just lifted myself out of the dregs of credit card debt and will not go there again – so financing for the system will have to come from incremental savings and the occasional bonus. Between this room and furnishing the rest of the house I’m hoping to get this all done in one shot in early 2006.

Your comments and suggestions are welcome and encouraged. In a few days I’ll try and get some construction update photos. I may also try and calibrate my current HT setup with the Avia / RS SPL meter just for fun/practice.

~Josh
 

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Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Those are some nice cads. Must have taken awhile to do the entertainment center. Should prove to be a fun project.

Onto the equipment I’m looking at, and the associated budgets. These by no means represent the final decisions, but are the ones that passed the budget, WAF, and “good reviews” criteria. I’d love to hear comments and suggestions!
You've done your homework, and I think you've got it about right. Might I suggest 12 (or minimum 14) gauge speaker wire, especially since they'll be a permanent fixture in the wall. The less resistance, the better-especially since you're looking at lower spl rated speakers (89dB Ascend's).

I would definitely take the Yamaha 2500 over the Denon 2805. If it's out of your budget, then the Pioneer 1015TX is a great choice (even over the 2805 IMO). The Denon 3805 is a closer match to Yamaha's 2500, as the 1500 is to the 2805. If you want a warranty on the Yamaha 2500, you're going to pay at least $650++.

Finally, I would take your $100 sub equalization for your Behringer, as well as the extra $100 if you purchase the Pioneer 1015TX, and put it towards a better sub. You said you wanted to feel the bass in your chest. $650 will buy you a 16-46 PCi or PB12-ISD and smoke the little PB10. There is no substitute for volume when it comes to bass, and every good HT can benefit from a better sub. Even the VTF3-MK2 is only $50 more - and I've seen the Pioneer 1015TX at $349. You can always get the Behringer down the road, but "trading up" a sub will cost you more in the long run.
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
Buckeyefan 1 said:
You've done your homework, and I think you've got it about right. Might I suggest 12 (or minimum 14) gauge speaker wire, especially since they'll be a permanent fixture in the wall. The less resistance, the better-especially since you're looking at lower spl rated speakers (89dB Ascend's).
I'm with Buck, on this one. For the same price as the 16 awg from home depot- You could buy 12awg or even 10awg twisted Beldin CL3 rated in wall wire. The 10 awg is super thick, and is really not needed. But the 12 is quite flexable and well worth the money. Here is a thread even with pictures of the Beldin (great wire for the price) http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11812&highlight=Beldin
 
S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
I had to join just so I could reply to this thread... I love giving my.02c :)



anyhow I am in the exact same boot you are... trying to piece together a nice HT on a budget that's not through the roof... so here is what I have come up with


I currently have a Onkyo tx777 and I love it, I bought it awhile back with plans on building a HT, now its outdated.. :-( kind of.. the only thing I wish it had was component inputs.. but my TV does so no biggie anyhow I am telling you this because older receiver can be had on eBay and what not really cheep.. I think I saw mine going for 400 last time I checked... that's less than half what I paid..

and as for speakers... I had plans to get all NHT I had my eyes on the Super tower but the discontinued that model and now on offer one tower in the super line up the st4 anyhow I ended up getting the Energy Take 5 system, with 5 satellites and a sub... its is an awesome setup but I am starting to see the limitations of the tiny speakers...

so currently I am saving my pennies for a all NHT set up, with towers in the front... I am going for the rattle things off the walls like you said... lol
I priced it out and here's what I come up with..

Center NHT SC2 275pr
Surr NHT SB2 250
Towers NHT ST4 750pr

so as you can see your looking at roughly 1300 not to bad...

notice theses no sub... I have my heart set on a sunfire sub someday.. :)



and later I would eventually like to get a front projector, a five ch amp, line conditioner, a better dvd player... then ill probably call it quits... (yeah right)


anyhow good luck on your new home and new HT

oh and I think its at the sofa express the have "theater chairs" the are really neat I would check those out for furnishings... I think they are a little $$$
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Looks like you're on track. Most people don't put enough planning into their projects. But here we do alot of dreaming and scheming (er, planning).

I'm with Buck on the wiring and sub issues.

Have you considered any other zoning before drywall goes up?
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Those are some nice cads. Must have taken awhile to do the entertainment center. Should prove to be a fun project.
Thanks, the cabinet cads were not as hard as they look. Visio does 2D stuff pretty easily.

Buckeyefan 1 said:
Might I suggest 12 (or minimum 14) gauge speaker wire, especially since they'll be a permanent fixture in the wall.
Done! I actually misquoted the home depot stuff ($80 for 500ft of 14 AWG, not 16AWG). Brian, thanks for your input, I'll look into the Belden stuff. Seems like a good deal if the shipping is within reason.

Buckeyefan 1 said:
I would definitely take the Yamaha 2500 over the Denon 2805. If it's out of your budget, then the Pioneer 1015TX is a great choice (even over the 2805 IMO). The Denon 3805 is a closer match to Yamaha's 2500, as the 1500 is to the 2805. If you want a warranty on the Yamaha 2500, you're going to pay at least $650++.
Great tip on the Pioneer 1015TX. I checked it out online today and it seems to have all the basic features I'm looking for for much less than the Denon and Yammy. What makes you like it more than the 2805 (aside from price)? Would I be giving up anything significant?

Buckeyefan 1 said:
Finally, I would take your $100 sub equalization for your Behringer, as well as the extra $100 if you purchase the Pioneer 1015TX, and put it towards a better sub. You said you wanted to feel the bass in your chest. $650 will buy you a 16-46 PCi or PB12-ISD and smoke the little PB10. There is no substitute for volume when it comes to bass, and every good HT can benefit from a better sub. Even the VTF3-MK2 is only $50 more - and I've seen the Pioneer 1015TX at $349. You can always get the Behringer down the road, but "trading up" a sub will cost you more in the long run.
Thanks for the sub pointers. I'll look into these. I'm very worried about room modes with the almost square shape (13.5' x 15'), but I'll have some time to try out the room with a different sub to see if there are any modes that need to be tamed.
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
AVRat said:
Have you considered any other zoning before drywall goes up?
I'm thinking of dedicating this receiver to the HT room, as the only other rooms upstairs are kids / guest bedrooms. If I go 7.1 I don't think that leaves any other speaker connections??

I'm going to have my older Pioneer receiver running my living room and a few other "ambient" zones downstairs (dining, master bedroom) as soon as I get this system in place.

~Josh
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
wilkenboy said:
Done! I actually misquoted the home depot stuff ($80 for 500ft of 14 AWG, not 16AWG). Brian, thanks for your input, I'll look into the Belden stuff. Seems like a good deal if the shipping is within reason.
The shipping is more than reasonable. Can't go wrong there...
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Great tip on the Pioneer 1015TX. I checked it out online today and it seems to have all the basic features I'm looking for for much less than the Denon and Yammy. What makes you like it more than the 2805 (aside from price)? Would I be giving up anything significant?
I own a 3805, and a close friend has the 2803 (previous 2805 model) running a 7.1 set of large Paradigm Studios. The 2805 is a decent unit, but is no match for the beefy Pioneer 1015TX. His 2803 runs very hot, as does my Denon when pushed. It has trouble driving his power hungry Paradigms. My Denon is the same way with my 7.1 Polk RTi setup. Both our 7.1 seakers are rated at 8 ohms and 87-89dB. His has shut down in the middle of house parties - not very cool. It sits on his big screen tv, totally ventilated. Circulation is not an issue. I've had to rig a cpu fan on mine to keep it cool, but it's never shut down. You can't beat the power/value on the 1015TX. IMO it's about right there with the Yamaha 2500 and Denon 3805 - at half the price.

Here's a user review.
http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4864-6466_16-31290402.html?messageSiteID=7&messageID=1247898&tag=1247898&cval=1247898&ctype=msgid
 
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Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
Just one suggestion:

Most people corner-load the subwoofer. Your plan has the door opening toards the cabinet. To not damage your cabinet, you'll need the door to swing into the space that your subwoofer will likely be. One good knock will damage the front grill of a subwoofer (or any speaker).

My suggestion, just hinge the door opening towards the back wall. The surround speakers should be further back than the doors opening arch (according to the pic), and then you can't really damage anything.
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Pioneer 1015TX

Buckeye, your suggestion and testimonial is what makes this forum great. Never would have even given this unit a second look had I been walking past it at Best Buy- I found it next to some no-name brand with no specs to speak of and not even hooked up. Its hard to believe a unit that matches the Yamaha 2500 and Denon 3805 can be found at BB for 1/2 the price, but now its at the top of the short list.

I did some hardcore spec comparison and it seems that the only thing that's getting sacrificed between the Pioneer and the Yamaha is a few DSPs (not that important for me) and a little flexibility in the PEQ. Other than that, its just a heck of a lot less expensive.

Awesome. More budget for other components!!

~Josh
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
Just one suggestion:

Most people corner-load the subwoofer. Your plan has the door opening toards the cabinet. To not damage your cabinet, you'll need the door to swing into the space that your subwoofer will likely be. One good knock will damage the front grill of a subwoofer (or any speaker).

My suggestion, just hinge the door opening towards the back wall. The surround speakers should be further back than the doors opening arch (according to the pic), and then you can't really damage anything.
RR Ninja- thanks for the advice. That's actually a detail I need to cover with the builder. The door I show in the drawing is roughly placed, not sure where they plan on framing it. Easier to fix these things before drywall than after!

More than likely I'll try and place the sub in the bottom right of the room as shown in the top-down drawing. From my understanding thats likely the best place to start as its closest to the seating area, furthest away from the door (no pressure leak), will have the highest WAF, and also furthest away from the kiddos rooms! :D But I'm leaving my options open- I'll place for best sound.

~Josh
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Construction Update

Went by the new house over my lunch break today to check on progress. The electricians and HVAC guys were crawling all over the place, but I managed to get upstairs to snap a shot of the HT room. Not much to look at yet, but in my mind's eye I'm already up there enjoying an adult beverage and some fine home theater.

After the electrical and HVAC is inspected I'll go drop in the in-wall wiring.

~Josh
 

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wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Time to wire

Just went by the house and talked to the builder- electrical inspection is done and I can put my wiring in. Just got off the phone with a few buddies who are coming over to help out- will start out bright and early, 6AM tomorrow! (it gets a little hot in TX in August)

~Josh
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
What kind of wiring did you end up going with? The Belden stuff or something different?
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
jaxvon,

I called Belden and they were backlogged - :( looked like a great deal, though. Shame on me for not ordering sooner. They did have some 16 AWG, it probably would have worked just fine, but since its going in the walls I didn't feel comfortable with anything smaller than 14 AWG.

I ended up going for some Home Depot in-wall speaker wire - 12 AWG. The price was right, at only about $80 / 500ft.

~Josh
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Wow, that's a great price. You'll have no problems with that wire, as I believe it's Carol brand, another great manufacturer. And with the 12ga, you shouldn't have second thoughts about "Was it good enough."
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Pre-wiring done!

So a quick update (over lunch, of course)- :rolleyes:

Got up early on Sunday to go put the wiring in- got started around 8 AM, marked the locations and put the boxes in, and about that time a buddy showed up to help out. We managed to knock out the home theater room 7.1 wiring in about 3 hours, including the subwoofer cable and component video cabling to the eventual projector location.

Everything went very smoothly, with the exception that the builder had already installed some of the insulation - had to pull a lot of that out to put the wiring in. By the time we got done with the room I was almost completly covered and trying deperately not to scratch... I was nice and put it all back where I found it. I didn't want a disgruntled construction worker putting a nail through my wiring because they had to re-place insulation...

That done, my buddy had to leave and my brother-in law showed up for the afternoon project- the family room wiring downstairs. We only did 5.1 down there, and two more runs for some outdoor speakers I'll put in later. We finished that up around 3 in the afternoon.

I put some masking tape over all the outlets to protect the connectors / wire from the spray-on texture stuff they use. I didn't do that in my current house and spent quite a bit of time cleaning that junk out of the boxes.

A hard day's work - it got to 100F around 1PM before some thunderstorms rolled in. The things we do for our addiction... I mean hobby.

So 7 hours, 16 junction boxes, 50 ft subwoofer cable, 50 ft component video cable, 700ft 12 AWG speaker wire, two boxes cable tacks, and one burnt out drill later I have a 7.1 wired dedicated home theater room, a 5.1 living room, and 2.0 outdoor system ready to accept all those electronics and speakers I've been drooling / obsessing over the last few months. :D

Now, I just have to sell the house I'm in- we have a deal in the builder contract where I don't have to purchase the new house unless the old one is sold. Good for the bank account, but I really don't want to give up the new house because of the old one. With a couple hundred dollars worth of cable, a lot of sweat, and a little of my brother-in-laws blood sunk into the walls of the new house, I'm anxious to get rid of my old house!!

Wish me luck- more pics to come when the drywall goes up.

~Josh
 
wilkenboy

wilkenboy

Full Audioholic
Construction Update - advice needed on speaker placement

Dropped by the new place over lunch today (sooo... hot... pushing 100 here today with lots of humidity)

The drywall is complete now and textured. Kitchen cabinets were sitting in the garage and the brick was on pallets outside in what will be the front yard. Doors were getting put in as I was there.

Unfortunately they had bedded and textured right over the projector video outlet on the ceiling. :mad: Luckily I had put masking tape over the cords and connectors so everything should be ok. I talked to the builder and he promised to fix it.

I'll try and get some pics in the next couple of days.

In the meantime we're still trying to get the existing house sold. With all the new construction going on in this area its been difficult to sell homes in existing neighborhoods. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that we get an interested buyed in the next few weeks or else the deal is off and I'm house hunting again (and redesigning the room)

In the meantime, I'm looking for some advice on speaker placement. In the pictures attached I show my fronts in custom cabinets and the surrounds placed on the wall. The plan is to use Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s all around.

Any problems with this? Potential work arounds?

~Josh
 

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jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
HT suggestions

Wilkenboy,
Looks like you will have a nice HT setup. Here are some suggestions:

Projector:
Also look at the BenQ PE7700 DLP. Right now the price is about $2500, but the price will likely come down closer to the holidays. I would pick the Panasonic over the sanyo.

Screen:
DIY, Goo Systems Paint. CRT White or digital grey.
OR, Dalite Model B manual pull down screen.
Also make sure that you run the projector calcs on the model you buy before building the screen. The model you select and its zoom range will effect the available screen size.

Receiver:
Yamaha RX-V1500 or HTR-5860

Speakers:
Axiom M22ti fronts, VP100 Center, M2t rears. Slightly higher than your budget but should perform much better for HT sound.

Subwoofer:
Rocket ULW-10 (built in EQ! $400!) SVS PB-10 ISD, or HSU VTF-2
Keep in mind that PEQ on receivers will not handle the subwoofer frequency range.

Wire:
#12 Belden Speaker wire for 19 cents per foot.
http://www.westlake-electronic.com/

DVD:
Save up for the Oppo Digital to maximize the capabilities of your 720P projector. ($200) Also wire room for DVI / HDMI cable.
 
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