MONSTER Rant

[warpdrive]

Gaius, I think that copper is really copper, and that the differences in a standard cable conductivity is negligible between the really bad stuff and the premium stuff for low bandwidth audio and standard video. However, the differences will start to manifest themselves in construction, durability, chemical composition of the jacket (whether it will deteriorate over time), resistance to abrasion (in-wall rating/plenum rating), and definitely the connectors and workmanship of termination. Not to mention shielding. Ease of use due to construction is always a factor.

And definitely for higher bandwidth applications, the quality of the cable is very important for uncompressed digital video. I ran into problems getting a clean 720P DVI signal over a 15 ft length!

 

[Gaius Caligula]

Copper, as with virtually any mined metal, does not exist in nature in easy-to-remove forms. The copper ore mining and refining process is brutal, to say the least. And the methodologies used to mine and refine copper ore differ. Poorly refined copper contains impurities, or non-copper elements, much like 10K gold is inferior to 24K gold due to the presence of non-gold elements. The better, or more purely refined the copper ore, the higher pure copper results, and so does a higher price. Poorly refined copper can be had for cheap, but it is not pure copper.

 

[Privateer]

price gouging

Yes but not to the point of 1000% and up.

Just out of curiosity Privateer, what is your system setup? If you can drop that kind of coin on cables, you must have a crazy system.

Electronics - Mcintosh MVP861 (source)
Mcintosh MX135 (A/V Control Center)
Mcintosh MC207 (Amp)

Speakers - Mcintosh XR27 (center)
Martin Logan Ascent i (front)
Martin Logan Aeon i (rear)
Velodyne HGS-15 (sub)

 

[Leprkon]

Copper, as with virtually any mined metal, does not exist in nature in easy-to-remove forms. The copper ore mining and refining process is brutal, to say the least. And the methodologies used to mine and refine copper ore differ. Poorly refined copper contains impurities, or non-copper elements, much like 10K gold is inferior to 24K gold due to the presence of non-gold elements.

A little follow up here. Most copper is leached from the ground using sulfuric acid. There is some mining done, but nothing compared to leaching. The copper is then reverse-electroplated on to copper pads in football-field sized rows of plating tanks.

In a normal copper plating tank, the sludge is normally gold, silver, and small quantities of other precious metals. If a tank goes bad, the bath will contain some iron and it doesn't take much. Iron selectively plates before copper, so any iron in the bath goes onto the copper pig before any more copper will plate. Usually iron makes it prescence felt during the drawing process (and when a six or seven step draw fractures, the foremen invent new cuss words). If they are producing a large-enough diameter wire for the iron particles to get through, you will have a nasty rise in resistance (iron is less than 6 IACS, if I remember right).

Iron will further set up a galvanic couple if your wires ever do get wet.

Small diameter individual wires and high purity are your best protection from these problems.

 

[Audioholics]

I had no idea about this - you're not making this up are you?

 

[Leprkon]

I had no idea about this - you're not making this up are you?

You expect ME to believe you double-E types can solve a real world problem using the square root of minus one ?

In the mid eighties, one of the largest copper producers in the United States at the time, Phelps Dodge, paid their entire operating expenses from the precious metals recovered in the sludge of leached copper plating baths. Any copper they actually SOLD was pure profit...

Mechanical Engineers make weapons, Civil Engineers make targets... Metallurgical Engineers sell to both and laugh all the way to the bank....

 

[mtrycrafts]

And definitely for higher bandwidth applications, the quality of the cable is very important for uncompressed digital video. I ran into problems getting a clean 720P DVI signal over a 15 ft length!

I wonder how the cable TV company sends is signal so far with such cables as rg6 with extreme bandwidth, many, many times that of your applications.
But then, the loss is specified by cable makers such as Belden, no?

 

[warpdrive]

I wonder how the cable TV company sends is signal so far with such cables as rg6 with extreme bandwidth, many, many times that of your applications.

I'll bite this time.

The explanation is simple, RG6 is not even remotely similar to DVI or HDMI cable.

Different problem. Running high bandwidth analog video or compressed video over a single conductor is not the same as running uncompressed uncorrected high banwidth digital video over a multiconductor twisted pair DVI cable.

The problem of dropouts with long lengths of DVI or HDMI cable is real. I was running 20 ft HDMI, and experienced dropouts that were fixed when I bought a higher grade cable. DVI cables, in practice, can only be as long as 20 ft before degradation is visible, and most people will see deterioration before that with a lower quality cable like what I had. People running very long lengths will have to resort to expensive solutions like repeaters to achieve longer transmission distances.

Try googling "sparkles" and "HDMI"

If you try to run 50 ft of HDMI at 1080P, you are actually approaching the physical (electrical) limits of the ability of copper to transmit a uncompressed/non-error corrected 1080P digital video signal over a HDMI compliant cable.

 

[xrayeyes]

I am not a huge fan of Monster. However, I have not had any problems with their products, if fact they seem better than many others.

I have recently started replacing some of the cheap crimp on RadioShack plugs that I first put on when I was wiring my system and trying to save some $. I have tried different clips, recently the GLS locking banana plugs that some people recommended here. Bought 10 prs. (20 plugs). They are not all consistent; some sit flush when you plug them in and some won't go in all the way. Tightening them when they are close together on the back of a receiver is very difficult also. Now, after buying them, I guess I am stuck with them (S&H kills you if u want to return them).

I have some Monster screw on clips I bought awhile ago. At least these have good contact on the wires, not just held in by a set screw against the plug. They make good contact with the binding post also.

 

[Shinerman]

I am not a huge fan of Monster. However, I have not had any problems with their products, if fact they seem better than many others.

I don't think anyone is saying Monster makes a bad product. Their product is well made. The problem most people have with Monster is the price and marketing practices. They claim things they have never proven and have no intention of proving and charge a premium based on these claims. They also are trying to sue just about any company in any area of business which has Monster in their name. Their suing Mom and Pop size companies using Monster in the company name even though Mom and Pop have a company completely unrelated to Audio/Video and were probably around before Monster Cable.

Shinerman

 

[mtrycrafts]

They also are trying to sue just about any company in any area of business which has Monster in their name. Their suing Mom and Pop size companies using Monster in the company name even though Mom and Pop have a company completely unrelated to Audio/Video and were probably around before Monster Cable.

Shinerman

And when one checks their history in the court filings, it ain't a few but hundreds of them.

What amazes me is that the larger ones like Disney, sign contracts instead of fighting them and making them stop this nonsense.

 

[Shinerman]

And when one checks their history in the court filings, it ain't a few but hundreds of them.

What amazes me is that the larger ones like Disney, sign contracts instead of fighting them and making them stop this nonsense.

This has probably been answered before somewhere but, have they sued Monster.com yet? That should be a good fight! I am also a fan of the rock group "Monster Magnet". I guess they will be changing their name soon huh?

Shinerman

 

[Tempest]

Some good, some not.

I needed another digital cable a couple weeks ago and for the hell of it picked up a Ultra Series THX® 1000 Digital Fiber Optic Cable. I know...what a waste of money, but I knew I could return it no matter what. This was not a high quality product. There is an outer mesh around it that completely separated from one of the plugs. Knowing it was optical, I was very careful with it, but that didn't matter. For $70, I expected at least good construction. I hope they don't get away from at least making good quality stuff. The coax digital cable I have from them is rock solid. As far as good digital cables go, coax or optical, are there other companies making good stuff that won't kill my bank account?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Home Depot carries some of the best digital coax cable you can get in the world.

It's called quad shield RG-6 and runs a few cents a foot.

Don't break the bank transferring those 1's and 0's.