modifiying your dvd player?

[drogulus]

On modders in general: Most of the mods I've seen involve the replacement of stock components with expensive "boutique" components (fancy caps and the like). This is done on the simplistic assumption that they will "sound better". Usually there is little or no scientific or engineering rationale for this that will hold up under scrutiny. Now, it is possible that the modded item will indeed sound different but is it really better? IMO, if gear sounds "different" there's probably something fishy going on since audio equipment should have no "sound" at all (and most modern, competently-designed gear these days doesn't, as DBT and measurement both routinely reveal), so it's probably actually a change for the worse. There is a tendency for people to assume different is better. And let's not forget the power of suggestion.

I sort of agree with you here, in part. The only area where I depart from your statement is the implied assumption that it is the modded player that is "different". It could be either one, or in fact, both. Difference being departure from transparency, of course.

I would like to see a review/analysis of that modded player I linked to earlier,this one,in comparison to the original Marantz it was based on. That Marantz is a good inexpensive player. I had the CD-67SE, pretty much the same one, a little fancier. Considering the price for the full mod package, I'm sceptical.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, that's what I'm trying to find out. I'd like to get a better grasp of what the actual practice is for the electronics. If even some of the highly regarded equipment makers (not talking about SET monoblocs, of course ) were doing as you suggest, that is, not listening critically to their own designs, well, that would be very interesting! I'd love to read a review of an amp or CD player produced that way. See how it "measures up" !!

If anyone has a link, brand, modal, interview with designer, review where design philosophy is discussed, that would be most helpful!

You may know of John Curl, designs, use to design amp. He has been posting on the net for many years and have butted heads a few times
He has participated in DBT listeing and got a null result, no audible differences. What does he do? He blames the test, not his hearing ability
So, he stopped bias controlled listening.

I am not sure you will find what you seek.

 

[drogulus]

Since the thread has wandered somewhat from player mods, I thought I'd return to the subject.

I personally have never heard a modded player, and though theorizing about what is or is not possible certainly is interesting, it doesn't answer the important question: do the player mods have the positive effect on sound quality that is claimed for them by the modders themselves. Obviously some testing needs to be done. Fortunately, Audioholics has tested the Sony SCD-CE775 SACD player with about $500 worth of modifications. The results of the listening test can be found here .

 

[mtrycrafts]

The results of the listening test can be found here .

Do you have a better link? It is not working for me.

 

[WmAx]

The results of the listening test can be found here .

That's one of those articles I try to block out of my memory. A purely subjective listening analysis(comparing to the unmodded by way of memory), much like what can be found in Stereophile.

As for the 'DBT' part, no details, measurements or any other relevant data are presented in an attempt to explain the different percieved sound.

Fortunately, that was 2 years ago, and it appears that AH is being more objective in present day.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's one of those articles I try to block out of my memory. A purely subjective listening analysis(comparing to the unmodded by way of memory), much like what can be found in Stereophile.

As for the 'DBT' part, no details, measurements or any other relevant data are presented in an attempt to explain the different percieved sound.

Fortunately, that was 2 years ago, and it appears that AH is being more objective in present day. -Chris

Did the link work for you? How come?

 

[WmAx]

Did the link work for you? How come?

It worked fine for me.

If you still can't get the link to work, go to:

http://www.audioholics.com

On the left, under Read Reviews, choose DVD & Media Players. Under DVD Audio / SACD / CD Players & Recorders choose the Sony SCD-CE 775 SACD Changer Audience Mod link.

-Chris

 

[drogulus]

This is from the review:


I set up both players so they were in exactly synchronous to each other and always simultaneously playing back identical tracks. I had my wife switch between players on regular one minute intervals, and sometimes "on the fly" within seconds, multiple times, while I took notes on my listening experience. Not knowing which player was which, it was always easy for me to identify the better sounding, more open, more neutral player. In fact, the difference this time was clearly more audible than my last face off between the stock players. However, after considerable DBT listening sessions, my wife revealed to me that my choice player was now the Audience modded SCD-CE775 SACD changer. I couldn't believe this so I choose to do the switching myself, this time knowing which player was which and I still came to the same conclusion. The Audience modded SCD-CE775 was transformed into a formable Redbook CD player.

I must say I was surprised since I have rarely heard a CD player with a 1 bit converter do standard Redbook playback any justice. I was quite taken by how open and revealing the modded player had become. To me it took on a new sound character befitting a truly high end design. Though little was done to improve its cosmetics, I now had a so called common midfi player that had no right sounding this high end. I quietly thought to myself, it would be a fun, but devious, prank to bring this player into a high end shop, not revealing its modifications, and face it off to some of their high dollar stock units to hear how it faired.

A few points:

1) In a previous test, the Sony SACD player did not fare well against the Sony CD changer when playing CDs. Now the modded player produces a different result when compared with the same CD changer. The comparison is a direct one, the memory is of the previous result, not of sounds. The charge that this is a test from memory is therefore false.

2) It is unfortunate that there was no unmodded player to directly compare to the modded one. Much as I appreciated the results of the CD test, I think most people interested in these mods would want to know how SACD performance was affected, if at all.

3) It would be nice if, in addition to establishing his preference in a fairly rigorous manner (certainly by comparison to Stereophile! ), the reviewer offered some data, measurements in support of a theory of why the player sounded better. No doubt the length of the review, and the shortness of human life are to blame! In any case, he was establishing a preference, which was the purpose of the review. I only wish more reviewers were as scrupulous!

 

[drogulus]

Fortunately, that was 2 years ago, and it appears that AH is being more objective in present day.

-Chris

WmAx,


You're kidding, right???


Well I certainly would like to see any reviews by AH from the last 2 years that would bear on the subject of player mods!! The only one I could find that fit the bill was this one. As you will see, the reviewer doesn't make much of an effort to remove listener bias from the comparison with the Lexicon, or the comparison with the unmodded Denon.

Having been carefully trained by years of reading Stereophile, I can say that the reviewers' attitude comes through clearly: the Denon is a great player, modding it is a huge waste of money!!

 

[WmAx]

This is from the review:

I'm glad that you, at least, found the review entertaining.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is from the review:

!

It would be interesting to know how the two were synchronized better than 5 ms? If not, you can tell the two apart just from being out of sync.

I wonder what the statistics of the correct guesses were? Were they level matched to .1dB spl? Then, the mod could alter the specs enough to make it audible

 

[drogulus]

It would be interesting to know how the two were synchronized better than 5 ms? If not, you can tell the two apart just from being out of sync.

No, it would not be interesting. Knowing one was ahead of the other can't help.

I wonder what the statistics of the correct guesses were? Were they level matched to .1dB spl?

Guesses? You mean "I guess I have a toothache"? I "guess" you could say he preferred the player he chose.

Then, the mod could alter the specs enough to make it audible

You think thats bad?? It gets even worse...he altered the player itself! And it was audible, the reviewer said so. But I know what you mean. The modder could have made the player slightly louder, taking advantage of the fact that people tend prefer the louder choice, interpreting louder as better.

In fact, it appears what the modder did was lower noise and distortion in the output stage. I'm not sure output voltage was changed at all. Besides, modders are more likely to lower output than raise it.

 

[krabapple]

No, it would not be interesting. Knowing one was ahead of the other can't help.

? Why do you suppose he even bothered to try to synchronize them, then?

Guesses? You mean "I guess I have a toothache"? I "guess" you could say he preferred the player he chose.

Yes, but you could also say, it might have been due to simple level mismatches, or to identity 'cues' from poor synching, or to chance. The report was really too skimpy on details to make the call. Note that a
comparison attempting to determine which player is 'better' is inherently also a test for difference.

I wonder if Gene would perform the test the same way today.

 

[drogulus]

? Why do you suppose he even bothered to try to synchronize them, then?

Probably for the same reason I synched my Pioneer DVD player and my Marantz CD player. I'd just bought the DVD player and I was curious if it could play CDs as well as my dedicated player. I used the same discs in both players and started them together. I wanted to be able switch back and forth listening to the same passage of music with no lag. You see, you can't make judgments of sound quality by memory. Only instant comparisons will suffice!

My crude test had a happy result...I couldn't tell the difference between the players, and I gave the Marantz to my brother!

Yes, but you could also say, it might have been due to simple level mismatches, or to identity 'cues' from poor synching, or to chance. The report was really too skimpy on details to make the call. Note that a
comparison attempting to determine which player is 'better' is inherently also a test for difference.

But not a test for identity. He doesn't know which player is which, which one started first, cost more, is prettier etc. Turning this into a guessing game is a wild goose chase. The point of a preference test is you choose without guessing the identity of the player.

Choosing a cheap SACD player over a more expensive dedicated CD player goes against received audiophile wisdom, by the way. If he merely wanted to confirm his biases, he went about it the wrong way.

Although the objections raised here don't rise to the point of invalidating the result, I have to agree that the report could have been more thorough. I'd like to see a followup, dealing with the unanswered questions. The most important one is suggested by this excerpt from the review:

The noise floor of the Burr Brown op amps is over 100 times lower than the stock JRC units. Note, depending on the overall circuit gain, this could have a quite dramatic effect on performance. Noise reduction is always a good thing, as it will usually present itself audibly with a more detailed soundstage, and ability to resolve the subtle details in a recording.

Is this significant or isn't it?? He doesn't follow up.