modifiying your dvd player?

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
drogulus said:
mtrycrafts,


The point of your posts is that everything that measures the same, sounds the same. You seem to have some trouble with the idea that people make judgements about sound quality without rushing off to the lab. But is this how the manufacturers decide about sound quality? They just take measurements?

I don't see the modders doing anything all that different from the original designers. In principle, it's the same. In fact, if designers didn't have to worry about hitting the price points, they'd be doing many of the same things.

I don't really think people should waste their time trying to "hear measurements", whatever that means. This forum owes its existence to the idea that armed with the best available information, people can and do make good decisions about audio and video gear. Amazingly, they do it with their eyes and ears! :)

Actually, I am sayiong a bit more than 'everything measuring the same' sounds the same. If you measure cable, they DON'T measure the same at all, yet, only grossly different cables such as 24ga and 16 ga will be audibly different. Why is that??? Perhaps our hearing is not as sensitive as audiophiles like to think? Perhaps a reverberent room and music will mask a lot of defects?

Manufacturers, good ones, including and especially speaker makers use DBT protocol to compare and evaluate their components. And, unless the design is well, off the wall like a SET amp, what is there to listen to if they are transparent?

Your last comment about making making decisions with your eyes and ears needs a caution memo added. Those two senses can be unreliable, biased and mislead you. So, while one use them to make choices, an informed buyer needs to be aware of the vagaries of those senses, its questionable reliability at time and what one could do to be more accurat in their choices?
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
basically just a soundboard with same speakers switching between different receivers. Wasn't even about guessing which was which, but just which one sounded better. Mind you DBT tests are highly flawed as well. Did the study you mention describe the exact testing conditions, source material, who the listeners were, and how the surveyed the results? If it's the general public, don't forget to realize that many people are tone def, and/or can't tell how material should sound either. I have a lot of friends that can't tell a clean clean bass note from a sloppy one, and i have a lot who know otherwise. DBT testing makes for intriguing results, but the test has to be done properly with certain conditions. Otherwise, results are easily skewed to get a desired answer. That goes for about any test actually that relies on opinion vs actual measured results.
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Your last comment about making making decisions with your eyes and ears needs a caution memo added. Those two senses can be unreliable, biased and mislead you. So, while one use them to make choices, an informed buyer needs to be aware of the vagaries of those senses, its questionable reliability at time and what one could do to be more accurat in their choices?

Wouldn't that apply to DBT testing as well? Considering the results stem from peoples opinions from their senses.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
guess88 said:
basically just a soundboard with same speakers switching between different receivers. Wasn't even about guessing which was which, but just which one sounded better. Mind you DBT tests are highly flawed as well. Did the study you mention describe the exact testing conditions, source material, who the listeners were, and how the surveyed the results? If it's the general public, don't forget to realize that many people are tone def, and/or can't tell how material should sound either. I have a lot of friends that can't tell a clean clean bass note from a sloppy one, and i have a lot who know otherwise. DBT testing makes for intriguing results, but the test has to be done properly with certain conditions. Otherwise, results are easily skewed to get a desired answer. That goes for about any test actually that relies on opinion vs actual measured results.

What is highly flawed in a DBT??? I suppose a sighted listening is flawless?
Interesting that you raise those questions about the article. Do you raise the same questions about sighted reports? Or, only when you don't like the results?
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
did i say a sighted listening is flawless? why don't you reread what i said again, and pay attention instead of jumping to conclusions. Dear god, sounds like share a bed with a blow up doll of Richard Clark.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
guess88 said:
Wouldn't that apply to DBT testing as well? Considering the results stem from peoples opinions from their senses.

Actually it doesn't apply to DBT listening. I am surprised that after so many posts here about DBT you would ask this. DBT eliminates bias through the process of statistics, no bias involved in how many guesses you think you correctly identified. If you didn't identify enough to meet statistical confidence levels, you are just guessing about what you think you hear. And, being blind to which component you listened to at the time of your choice selection removes your other biases, conscious or subconscious, for a product.
Why do you think researchers using human subjects use DBT? That is the gold standard.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
guess88 said:
did i say a sighted listening is flawless? why don't you reread what i said again, and pay attention instead of jumping to conclusions. Dear god, sounds like share a bed with a blow up doll of Richard Clark.

The implications were apparent.
 
JohnA

JohnA

Audioholic Chief
I think...

Most people mod stuff because they can...that's all. Look at the car world, you can add ground effects, shave the door handles, and neon, etc....does it add to the car...NO...does it improve the car....maybe some mods....does the person doing the mod like it...YES. Heck people mod computers all the time, are all mods for improvement...NO, some are just for looks. I say if some one wants to mod their DVD, CD, TV, etc... they have a right to, will it make it play better...who knows, but if it makes the person happy what is wrong with that?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
JohnA said:
Most people mod stuff because they can...that's all. Look at the car world, you can add ground effects, shave the door handles, and neon, etc....does it add to the car...NO...does it improve the car....maybe some mods....does the person doing the mod like it...YES. Heck people mod computers all the time, are all mods for improvement...NO, some are just for looks. I say if some one wants to mod their DVD, CD, TV, etc... they have a right to, will it make it play better...who knows, but if it makes the person happy what is wrong with that?

Oh, I have nothing against modding if the person knows why they are doing it and what it brings to the final product. Nothing wrong with enjoying the results of your handywork ;)
But, some do it because they think they are getting better performance under false misconceptions and there are many in audio or most other comsumer marketplace. That is what I like to caution people about before doing it.
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
The implications were apparent.

Were they? Mind pointing them out? I don't think i mentioned anything about sighted testings, or them being flawless either.

DBT testing has its flaws, just like any other test. Researchers use human subjects in them because that that sample group supposidly represents the general population. Now say you take your sample from a nursing home vs people that evaluate audio for a living. You should get different results considering one sample has a general deficiency in their ability to hear. Another thing though.. if you have a random sample of the population from multiple sources, you have to wonder how many actually can tell or memorize a note. Many many people in society are tone deficient. Sound doesn't make such a statement to the memory as say.. taste. Not to say DBT isn't good, it's great, but the study has to be done properly and your sample population can skew results.

what do you have in your home audio setup by the way?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
guess88 said:
Were they? Mind pointing them out? I don't think i mentioned anything about sighted testings, or them being flawless either.

DBT testing has its flaws, just like any other test. Researchers use human subjects in them because that that sample group supposidly represents the general population. Now say you take your sample from a nursing home vs people that evaluate audio for a living. You should get different results considering one sample has a general deficiency in their ability to hear. Another thing though.. if you have a random sample of the population from multiple sources, you have to wonder how many actually can tell or memorize a note. Many many people in society are tone deficient. Sound doesn't make such a statement to the memory as say.. taste. Not to say DBT isn't good, it's great, but the study has to be done properly and your sample population can skew results.

what do you have in your home audio setup by the way?
Maybe you shopuld have been reading some of the published audio DBT? They didn't use folks from nursing homes nor the general population.
But, the one test that I know of using other, non audio or musical people,

"The Grass is Always Greener in the Outakes", Gould, Glenn, High Fidelity, Aug 75, pg 54-59.

they didn't use them either. And, the results from those non interested people were, should I say, interesting? The answer you would no like as it doesn't support your premis.

And, this has nothing to do with memorizing notes because you just don't have time to do so. Your acoustic memory to differentiate small differences is rather short, meaning on the order of seconds. Seeing how music changes, you are at a disadvatage from the moment you start.

My setup, if I even have one as it is not a pre requisite here to post, is irrelevant, has been all my posting history. I could also be deaf, for that matter ;) Oh, I do have two boomboxes, does that count :D
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
you missed my point of general population, but i guess you don't get much out of what you read... whatever so be it, i'm done with this.

the only reason i asked what your setup was was just to see if you stand by your beliefs. it's always makes you wonder when someone says all the shlt sounds the same when they're rocking nice gear at home instead of the cheap setups that supposidly are equivelant in sound.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
guess88 said:
the only reason i asked what your setup was was just to see if you stand by your beliefs. it's always makes you wonder when someone says all the shlt sounds the same when they're rocking nice gear at home instead of the cheap setups that supposidly are equivelant in sound.

Ah, I see. Now, according to you, one cannot buy based on preference issues? Maybe I like the way they look? Did I say you cannot?
Maybe I like the makers name? Its size in the marketplace? It's flexibility? Not on your list?
You pre judge based on your prejudices, I see.


And, I'd like you to post the message by anyone that 'ALL' of anything sounds the same. Please do that before you write that jibberish.
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
You still don't mention a shlt of what you have so it doesn't matter. I'm not prejudging, but I do think you take things out of context. Just seems silly to me to spend say a grand on a cd player when supposidly a $40 will do just the same. Unless you got money to blow like that.. so be it. It's your dough.

I don't get your last sentence though... what are you even trying to get through? I mean dude, if i offended you in your sanctuary that is the forum i'm sorry. It was your home first, i'm just visiting.
 
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drogulus

Audioholic Intern
mtrycrafts,

What sort of listening tests do designers of audio equipment (amplifiers, preamps, CD players) consider to be valid for their purposes. In other words, how do they confirm, if only to overcome their own scepticism about their own judgments, that their designs sound as good as they measure?
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
I see we're once again treading the great subjective/objective divide, hmm?

OK, let me address (from an objectivist viewpoint) a few points raised by both:

There are lots of perfectly valid reasons for even a hardcore objectivist to buy "rockin" high-priced gear that have nothing to do with audible differences. Things like build quality, a longer warranty, more attention from customer service if things go wrong, features, ergonomics, even intangibles like pride of ownership and styling. As I've often said, if I could afford them I'd own Bryston amps for all those reasons, and I'm as much a hardcore DBT advocate as mtry (though more diplomatic about it!) ;) But I know that my humble Adcom, Pioneer and other components do their basic jobs just as well as their more expensive equivalents, and I doubt they would "sound different" at matched levels.

Autosound was brought up. Now, autosound ain't my thang but I have heard that mobile gear is a lot more variable in performance than home gear, so maybe there are real audible differences between different head units, amps, and such. Maybe we're in apples vs. oranges territory here. Maybe. But I'm on shaky ground due to my own ignorance of autosound.

On modders in general: Most of the mods I've seen involve the replacement of stock components with expensive "boutique" components (fancy caps and the like). This is done on the simplistic assumption that they will "sound better". Usually there is little or no scientific or engineering rationale for this that will hold up under scrutiny. Now, it is possible that the modded item will indeed sound different but is it really better? IMO, if gear sounds "different" there's probably something fishy going on since audio equipment should have no "sound" at all (and most modern, competently-designed gear these days doesn't, as DBT and measurement both routinely reveal), so it's probably actually a change for the worse. There is a tendency for people to assume different is better. And let's not forget the power of suggestion.

Now, there is the common assertion that cheap parts are often used due to budget/price constraints. True. But it is also true that quite often the cheaper parts will only slightly affect the measured performance, and that the difference will still be inaudible. And it is also true that using expensive parts in a given application will often simply be a waste of money imparting little or no measurable benefit; but doing so will impress the naive consumer and can be used to justify some dubious marketing claims, a higher price and greater profit margin for the manufacturer.

OTOH, there are some good reasons for using more expensive parts that have nothing to do with electrical performance or sound: things like reliability (see "build quality" above). So, for instance, a film cap in a certain application might indeed be "better" than a cheaper electrolytic cap just because film caps last longer. Hey, if you're paying a few grand instead of a few hundred for an amp or CD player, you might expect to keep it awhile.

The flaws of DBT: Like everything of human origin, DBT is not perfect. But for minimizing or eliminating human bias in testing it is the best tool we have and is recognized as such in every scientific field. To paraphrase Churchill, DBT may be a bad system, but all the others are so much worse. And the common criticisms of DBT's validity (the switching is too fast, the stress of testing fouls up the results, etc.) in audio are simply based on ignorance of a great body of work on human perception, psychology, and hearing (an experimental psychologist I am slightly acquainted with describes many audiophile beliefs as "audio tarot"). AFAIK, the validity of well-conducted DBT is simply a non-issue to any genuine scientist. As I've said before: if we rely on DBT in life-and-death scientific fields like medicine, why should it be inadequate for the relatively trivial question of whether two amps sound alike?

As to the question:
What sort of listening tests do designers of audio equipment (amplifiers, preamps, CD players) consider to be valid for their purposes. In other words, how do they confirm, if only to overcome their own scepticism about their own judgments, that their designs sound as good as they measure?
I believe the answer is: DBT.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Rip Van Woofer said:
and I'm as much a hardcore DBT advocate as mtry (though more diplomatic about it!) ;)
Rip Van Woofer said:
I am really sorry. I guess I spent all my savings on those two boomboxes, not diplomatic charm classes :D


Autosound was brought up. Now, autosound ain't my thang but I have heard that mobile gear is a lot more variable in performance than home gear, so maybe there are real audible differences between different head units, amps, and such. Maybe we're in apples vs. oranges territory here. Maybe. But I'm on shaky ground due to my own ignorance of autosound.

If they measure up to home components, other than speakers, they should perfor equally. If one thing I accept from the research labs at the NRC in Canada, measurements do in fact correlate to what you hear.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
drogulus said:
mtrycrafts,

What sort of listening tests do designers of audio equipment (amplifiers, preamps, CD players) consider to be valid for their purposes. In other words, how do they confirm, if only to overcome their own scepticism about their own judgments, that their designs sound as good as they measure?

That would depend on the maker :)
Some hi end makers use biased listeing and a very subjective evaluation to appease their audiophile customers.
THe better speaker makers use DBT listening to evaluate their speakers.
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml

Read the part about the NRC research.

Now as to other components such as amps, CD players. Don't know of any who do listen outside of a cursory listeing, other than the above mentioned hi end makers.
If their design is good, measures well, what is there to listen to in a critical manner???

You may also want to check this link out, all the entry doors:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampins.htm
 
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guess88

Junior Audioholic
good points made rip....

in terms of autosound, there are huge variances in sound. That area's more of my forte than home audio. I ignored home audio about 10 years ago to focus on auto sound and performance. I'm just getting back into the home audio about about a few months ago, but a lot of the same logic still applies. Mobile audio isn't nearly as far developed as home audio for the sheer sake of how long the market's been around and how big it is, preference of the market, and of course budget constraints. Not to say there isn't high end gear, but there's many more people who just want some boom than people who actually care about sound quality. And even with all the right gear, you still come to the constraints and difficulties of the car environment. Very audio unfriendly.
 
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drogulus

Audioholic Intern
mtrycrafts said:
Now as to other components such as amps, CD players. Don't know of any who do listen outside of a cursory listeing, other than the above mentioned hi end makers.
If their design is good, measures well, what is there to listen to in a critical manner???
Well, that's what I'm trying to find out. I'd like to get a better grasp of what the actual practice is for the electronics. If even some of the highly regarded equipment makers (not talking about SET monoblocs, of course :) ) were doing as you suggest, that is, not listening critically to their own designs, well, that would be very interesting! I'd love to read a review of an amp or CD player produced that way. See how it "measures up" :D !!

If anyone has a link, brand, modal, interview with designer, review where design philosophy is discussed, that would be most helpful!
 
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