Mockery of the Office of President

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Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, but I think McNamara was worse than LBJ, he instituted system analysis in public policy which evolved into policy analysis today. He was the ultimate micro manager/technocrat, thanks to this idiot we had the ridiculous one bullet/one kill enemy body count format, this stipulated that each American bullet used would equate one dead enemy combatant. Rightly so his middle name is Strange.
The two of them were such a deadly combination, forcing airmen to fly into known AA routes while disallowing the targeting of AA positions and took all command decisions regarding flight paths and ordinance away from the commanders in theater. I'll say it again as I did in another thread, political interference in military operations is lethal to your own troops and ultimately the course for defeat.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
The two of them were such a deadly combination, forcing airmen to fly into known AA routes while disallowing the targeting of AA positions and took all command decisions regarding flight paths and ordinance away from the commanders in theater. I'll say it again as I did in another thread, political interference in military operations is lethal to your own troops and ultimately the course for defeat.
No doubt, when politicians (of any stripe) have the audacity to play general, in the end the troops pay for their folly. Vietnam is the case study in what not to do in conflict. Russia followed the same flawed plan and they got their "Vietnam" only it was Afghanistan.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
So Which President made a mockery of the office MORE?

Clinton or Bush?

Which President has done a worse job of it?
Draw your swords and let the fun begin! :D

Man, I'm surprised this one hasn't gotten bloody already...
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Okay I'll throw a quick remark in here before I have to log out and finish up paperwork (yeah I bring my work home with me sometimes).

I have stated before and I will state again - I am neither Republican nor Democrat, so any tendency to defend one whilst slamming the other bears not on my party leanings (because I have none), and relies instead on simple common sense (as I see it anyway).

Bush has had his fair share of bad judgment and for the fact that despite what good he has done, every time he opens his mouth he sounds like an idiot, therefore the common public have come to regard him as such, as easy as it is to pick on the dumb kid in school, he has become a whipping boy for a frustrated American population who simply doesn't care to involve themselves in the entire truth and reality of what is happening in this country. Mockery? No, not at all - he isn't the best one we've had by any means, but he's kept us safe from harm and has ridden the world of one of the most ruthless and evil dictators around. For that I give him praise, but perhaps if he were a tad more eloquent, he might be regarded differently - for example, look how people rally around a great speaker - Obama? Are you kidding me? I rest my case...

Clinton - he couldn't keep it in his pants, screwed around with an intern, and therefore disgraced the office of the President of the United States. He then proceeded to lie about it, and avoided impeachment only by his cunning ability to sway the masses into thinking he's really a "pretty nice guy". He had more than one occasion to take out Osama Bin Laden, and failed each time, even when strongly persuaded by top military personnel who advised him that Osama was the most dangerous man on the planet. He left Bush a present, which was 9/11, then went and lived the life of a rock star in retirement. He is an example of a great speaker who lacks personal integrity, therefore retains power over the unsuspecting public (well, many of them anyway), and laughs it off as Shrillary continues to devastate the concept of a Presidential campaign by making a mockery of the process of running for the top slot. The Clintons have built an entire career on mockery. And the joke is on us, as Americans.

Bring it on!!! :D
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
I think everyone's tired due to the BD/HD DVD bombings from the last few days.:D

I for one am a Republican and I happen to agree with you 100%, isn't that odd? That an independent and a Republican can agree, proves that common sense rules the day!:D

I don't care for Bush, but you're right, he'll never get any sort of credit with a belligerent, leftist media. Yet Bubba could go around putting woody woodpecker into every paige/secretary/aide and he could do no wrong. What does it tell you when people are swayed more by words, style, looks, oratory and hype?
 
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Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Draw your swords and let the fun begin! :D

Man, I'm surprised this one hasn't gotten bloody already...
OK, I'll bite if you don't mind some additional commentary from a foreigner.:p

Clinton was an enabler, emboldening the terrorists by turning the other cheek every time America got bloodied. Sending a cruise missile to strike a target unrelated to the terrorists involved doesn't hurt the terrorists. It allows them to feel untouchable.

On the other hand, Bush's response has cost the lives of thousands of American and Allied servicemen, caused countless civilian casualties and untold property damage and foreign relations complications. But he has drawn the terrorists out of hiding (or forced them into hiding depending on their place in the hierarchy) and it's forced the terrorists to step up to their "A" game just to survive. Right or wrong, the terrorists are now engaged on America's terms in their own backyard. All that's left to see is if America has the guts to see this through to the end or if it will be lift to a Chamberlain or Quisling to finish it off.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
OK, I'll bite if you don't mind some additional commentary from a foreigner.:p

Clinton was an enabler, emboldening the terrorists by turning the other cheek every time America got bloodied. Sending a cruise missile to strike a target unrelated to the terrorists involved doesn't hurt the terrorists. It allows them to feel untouchable.

On the other hand, Bush's response has cost the lives of thousands of American and Allied servicemen, caused countless civilian casualties and untold property damage and foreign relations complications. But he has drawn the terrorists out of hiding (or forced them into hiding depending on their place in the hierarchy) and it's forced the terrorists to step up to their "A" game just to survive. Right or wrong, the terrorists are now engaged on America's terms in their own backyard. All that's left to see is if America has the guts to see this through to the end or if it will be lift to a Chamberlain or Quisling to finish it off.

I couldn't have said it better myself!
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Damn, it's too bad I have to go for now - looks like this one could get good tonight. Well, I'll see if the tempest will brew into something fierce by tomorrow morning. :D

Carry on, amigos!
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
I'm bushed (no pun intended), I'm about to hd dvd'ed (hit the hay!) Hey that could be the new moniker for giving up, going to sleep or croaking!: "He's so tired, he HD DVD'ed and hit the bed."
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
This thread was a lot of fun when I was bashing Bush but then these crazy people started posting. :) Oh well .....
 
S

sparky77

Full Audioholic
In my opinion, no president has made more of a mockery of the presidancy than another, but it sure is fun to see the contraversy. People seem to forget that lying, cheating, and stealing politicians are people too, and when you involve people, you involve human nature. But it sure was interesting to have Clintons sex life brought out in the public, it might have been too boring for him otherwise.

oh, and do you you know why Hillary woke up at 4am every morning will Bill was in office......

She wanted to be the First Lady....
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I'll vote Johnson as the worst. His ineptness and micromanagement of the Vietnam war cost American servicemen their lives and ultimately lost the war. What's that Johnson quote? "Not a bomb drops on Vietnam without my say so." While one could question whether or not Bush needed to go to Iraq, one could equally question whether Johnson needed to go into Vietnam the way he did. It could have just as easily remained a UN mission.
Funny how both Johnson and Bush are Texans. Oil must get mixed in with the drinking water down there. It's funny the biggest deal that Bill is remembered over is getting his willy basted at some one else's bar-b-q. Hell, in Japan, France, Italy and Detroit, you are pretty much expected to have some action on the side (I am serious). If you had Hilary for a wife, you would take your business elsewhere also.

As far as 911 goes it was going to happen one way or the other, republican or democrat. Entire swaths of government failed her people in this regard. Yes Clinton should have and could have sent a much bigger message when the towers were bombed the first time, it was needed. What is going on in Iraq could have and would have all been done in Afghanistan.

We are now looming on the edge of recession that has to be squarely put on the Bush administration. Your civil rights mean less because of the last eight years. Your right to privacy is a mere shadow of what it once was. We now face a deficit that has seen no equal at anytime in our history. All this in less than eight years. How anyone can think this a good thing is beyond me.
 
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Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Funny how both Johnson and Bush are Texans. Oil must get mixed in with the drinking water down there. It's funny the biggest deal that Bill is remembered over is getting his willy basted at some one else's bar-b-q. Hell, in Japan, France, Italy and Detroit, you are pretty much expected to have some action on the side (I am serious). If you had Hilary for a wife, you would take your business elsewhere also.
Negative - not as President of the USA. That's my opinion. You're holding the highest office of government there is in our country and are walking in the footsteps of some of the greatest leaders this world has ever known, I expect that any President will act accordingly and respect his own position and maintain an utter sense of professionalism while on the job. He is remembered for this act more than any else, because it's the one act that he could in no way defend in terms of 'trying to act in the interest of our country', good or bad. As such, he disgraced the office and in my opinion, his own name among those who preceded him.

As far as 911 goes it was going to happen one way or the other, republican or democrat. Entire swaths of government failed her people in this regard. Yes Clinton should have and could have sent a much bigger message when the towers were bombed the first time, it was needed. What is going on in Iraq could have and would have all been done in Afghanistan.
If we were still concentrating our efforts in Afghanistan, the terrorists would already be several steps ahead of us - as you may or may not recall, we abolished the Taliban (who were terror supporters), and soon after, most of the terrorists fled the country in search of refuge elsewhere (Osama is believed to be in Pakistan for example). We have them on the run, and as long we we continue this, they will be less likely to organize, train and plan the next big attack. Al Qaeda is firmly entrenched within the Iraqi borders, and we continue to find and either capture or kill their top leaders to this day.

We are now looming on the edge of recession that has to be squarely put on the Bush administration. Your civil rights mean less because of the last eight years. Your right to privacy is a mere shadow of what it once was. We now face a deficit that has seen no equal at anytime in our history. All this in less than eight years. How anyone can think this a good thing is beyond me.
Our economy has always been a fragile one, and continues to be so in this rapidly shrinking global economic juggernaut. I don't blame the Bush administration entirely for this, but I don't withhold him from responsibility either, in our ability to compete in the global market. For one, I blame corporate outsourcing and too much importing of goods and services - fewer American workers are getting paid the wages they deserve, unemployment continues to rise, and less money is being spent at the average cash register. Further complications result from the mortgage foreclosure crisis, but who is to blame for that? The banks, not Bush. All told, we're sending more money and resources outside of our country than we're bringing in or making on our own, and that's a problem that started long before Bush took office.

Civil liberties... well, I wish you could be more specific on that one. I'm assuming you're referring to the Patriot Act again? :) Well, let me just say that we're in the process (as a nation) of once again turning our cheek on the terrorists, which is going to put us in exactly the same position we were in when we were caught with our pants down on 9/11. You remember the public outcry on "how could we have avoided this???", right? People would have done anything to prevent the attacks, but suddenly everyone has amnesia and thinks maybe 9/11 was just a movie they saw once, and that we're in fact safe, when in fact we're not - these monsters (among other things), are some of the worst enemies this country has ever faced because a.) they are extremely cunning and ruthless, b.) they are extremely patient, and c.) they have no regard for life, even their own. Yes, they are smart - and they know that all they have to do is wait for America to lower her guard again, and wait for Obama or Hillary to get into office, then it's open season on American citizens again - you watch. ;)
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
So Which President made a mockery of the office MORE?

Clinton or Bush?

Which President has done a worse job of it?
Clinton's big mistake was getting caught with his pants down. Aside from changing his mind too often, he was a generally good president. The economy improved substantially while he was in office.
Bush, by contrast, is actively harming the country. His pointless war is causing a recession, he has lost what little respect other countries had for the US, he is easily among the worst we have had in terms of environmental policy, and his "Homeland Security" does far more to undermine constitutional freedoms than it does to stop terrorists.:(
 
masak_aer

masak_aer

Senior Audioholic
Here is my take on Bush and Clintons...

Bush:
Whenever he opens his mouth, he looks like an idiot...But he'll make a good drinking buddy....His sense of humor is pretty high and he doesn't get mad when people are making fun of him......or he doesn't know that?!?

Clinton:
He is not the first president with the "other" woman on the side. Common..there are a few that had mistresses..and "interns" during their presidency. Well, he is smart in his economic and foreign policies...but lacks on security and defense policies...

Any of you may hit me with a rock on my head for this..:D Just bring it on....
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
There's three ways to basically eliminate a budget defecit: increase tax revenues,decrease spending, do a combination of the first two. Democrats imply that Bill Clinton was fiscally responsible controlled federal spending and enacted policies to caused economic growth. They believe the "surplus" was a direct result of Clinton's firm hand at the economic/budgetary wheel.

During Bubba's presidency spending rose about 30% (roughly), tax revenues by 85%, so it's obvious he didn't control spending since it rose 30%, what helped him was the 85% tax revenue. That’s why there was a budget surplus - tax revenue increased at a faster pace than Bill Clinton could spend it. The surplus had nothing to do with his ability to intentionally balance the budget. American were overtaxed to keeps things floating. Under Bush spending is worse, that's why he's let down many a Republican.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
As for my take on Bush:

This is from the book Conservatives Betrayed.


Federal spending under the Bush administration has grown five times larger than that during the second term of the Clinton administration, charges a conservative Republican activist in a new book that paints the president as a traitor to his party.

In "Conservatives Betrayed," Richard Viguerie, credited with being one of the architects of the Reagan Revolution, says George W. Bush has set the stage for the punishment of his party by voters.

Viguerie compares spending by the federal government, adjusted for inflation, during the Clinton years vs. the Bush years. In Clinton's first term, federal expenditures rose 4.7 percent. In his second term, they rose 3.7 percent. In the first term of the Bush administration, however, spending rose 19.2 percent.

"If ever there was a case for divided government, here it is," writes Viguerie. "The lesson for many Americans is that today's Republicans cannot be trusted with the keys to both the executive and legislative branches of the federal government."

No matter how you slice it, Viguerie says, Bush makes Clinton look like a spending piker by comparison. For instance, the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University in New York keeps records that show how much the federal government spends on average each year for each person in the country. When this standard of measurement is used, the comparison between the two administrations is even more pronounced.

Cumulative growth in federal expenditures, adjusted for inflation, during the Clinton years actually shrunk by 1.1 percent. Yet, in the Bush first term, it rose 15 percent.

"During President Bush's first five years in office, the federal government increased by $616 billion," Viguerie writes. "That's a mammoth 33 percent jump in the size of the federal government in just his first five years! To put this in perspective, this increase of $616 billion is more than the entire federal budget in Jimmy Carter's last years in office. And conservatives were complaining about Big Government back then! How can Bush, (Dennis) Hastert, (Bill) Frist and company look us in the eye and tell us they are fiscal conservatives when in five short years they increased the already-bloated government by more than the budget for the entire federal government when Ronald Reagan was assuming office?"
Richard Viguerie

Another standard of comparison offered by Viguerie is discretionary domestic spending, adjusted for inflation.

"When we strip away defense, homeland security and entitlements and adjust for inflation, leaving only discretionary domestic spending, George W. Bush has grown the federal government at a faster pace than Lyndon Baines Johnson," Viguerie writes. "His record for profligate spending is outmatched (for the time being) only by another Big Government Republican, Richard Nixon. And when Bush's second term is over, there's every reason to expect that Bush will hold the record as the president who's grown the federal government at its fastest pace in modern times."

The numbers?


Johnson: 4.1 percent

Nixon/Ford: 5 percent

Carter: 1.6 percent

Reagan: 1.4 percent

Bush I: 3.8 percent

Clinton: 2.1 percent

Bush II: 4.8 percent


Viguerie compares the modern presidents on the use of the veto, too. While Johnson used the veto power 30 times, Nixon 43, Ford 66, Carter 31, Reagan 78, Bush I 44 and Clinton 36, Bush didn't use it at all in his first term and has used it just once ? for a non-spending issue ? in his second term.

"Bush apologists give the excuse that it's harder to veto bills that are passed by your own party," Viguerie writes. "Yet LBJ and Carter each cast 30 or more vetoes while their own party controlled Congress. In fact, the all-time master of the veto was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He used the veto power an incredible 636 times during his four terms ? despite having a Democratic Congress with majorities as lopsided as 75-17 in the Senate and 333-89 in the House! Congress overrode his vetoes a mere nine times."

Yet another formula for measuring presidential fiscal responsibility, according to Viguerie, is rescissions. Reagan used rescission power to rescind funds authorized by Congress. Ford rescinded $7.9 billion in spending. Carter rescinded $4.6 billion, Reagan $43.4 billion, Bush I $13.1 billion, Clinton $6.6 billion.

But George W. Bush has not rescinded even $1 in congressional spending.

"The best illustration of the corrupting influence of power on the Republicans is the explosion of pork-barrel spending projects since 2000," says Viguerie.

Viguerie points to a 121 percent increase in pork-barrel earmarks in the first five years of the Bush administration.

"The size of the federal government is the single most important barometer of the health of the American republic," writes Viguerie. "When domestic federal spending goes up, it's a surefire indicator that something is wrong. And the way spending has been increasing under the Bush administration and the Republican Congress shows that things are seriously wrong."
 
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