Matching left, right and center channels!

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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I recently replaced a Klipsch center (THX 550), with a Revel Performa C426Be center, which closely matches my left and right front channel speakers, Revel Performa 226Be.

I had thought that Dirac, implemented on my Marantz AV10, would compensate for the differences in the Klipsch center and the Revel left and right speakers.

But, no, the front soundstage is now seamless, and I now know it was NOT before making this replacement.

Maybe it's the higher quality of the replacement speaker, partly, but I think that the near identity of the present triumvirate is the thing.

Your thoughts?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Dirac, Audyssey, etc can't perform miracles. Some speakers match better than others. Revel is a step above Klipsch IMO too. Congrats on getting it where you like it!
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Dirac and Audyessy are for correcting performance issues related to the room, not speaker placement or mismatch correction. Although I have heard Dirac do some pretty impressive things, it can't "fix" timbre. The front stage should always be a close match or identical to get that seamless sound.
 
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Golfx

Full Audioholic
I would say the beryllium tweeters matching helped tremendously.
 
Joe B

Joe B

Audioholic Chief
I purchased all of my speakers from the same company when I set up my 5.1 system so tweeters and crossovers shared between speakers would seamlessly blend after room correction. I thought this was fairly standard practice, at least for the front 3 speakers.
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I would say the beryllium tweeters matching helped tremendously.
I agree, the horizontal dispersion of these Revel Be tweeters and waveguide is exceptionally broad and even (see for example Erin's measurements of the 326Be). That, I'm sure, is not the case for the Klipsch.
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I thought this was fairly standard practice, at least for the front 3 speakers.
Well, some of us start out with a stereo system, and it evolves and we then we are often broke and must ask the wife and don't know any better!
 
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Oddball

Junior Audioholic
Congrats on getting a truly great speaker. I got the same one a month or so ago and really love it. I don't have Revel towers to match, but got the center on basis of measurements and reviews as well as size. It turned out to be a really good match to my Heco La Diva towers. The front soundstage never sounded so good.

Previous centre was Sonus Faber Sonetto II which was also pretty good (and sizeable), but was bought to match Gallo Reference 3.5 oldish towers that are still going strong, but are smaller is scale and sound than Heco's. I did feel that Sonetto II at times had difficult time keeping up with dynamics of bigger towers. Was not really an issue of timbre matching, more dynamics and clarity.

EQ is very helpful and can fix a lot of issues, but can't really do miracles. I have Klipsch RC-64iii in my other system, but that one is paired with Klipsch towers all around and without substantial full range EQ none of them would be even possible to listen to. I can't imagine that RC-64iii could work in my other setup at all, even with substantial EQ.

My last point is that often centre speakers might be matched with towers in timbre, but not in size, which IMO causes substantial issues with front soundstage. Some notable examples would be new SVS Pinnacle towers or a bit more mature Arendal 1723 towers. Both have underwhelming center to keep up with such large towers.
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
Congrats on getting a truly great speaker. I got the same one a month or so ago and really love it. I don't have Revel towers to match, but got the center on basis of measurements and reviews as well as size. It turned out to be a really good match to my Heco La Diva towers. The front soundstage never sounded so good.

Previous centre was Sonus Faber Sonetto II which was also pretty good (and sizeable), but was bought to match Gallo Reference 3.5 oldish towers that are still going strong, but are smaller is scale and sound than Heco's. I did feel that Sonetto II at times had difficult time keeping up with dynamics of bigger towers. Was not really an issue of timbre matching, more dynamics and clarity.

EQ is very helpful and can fix a lot of issues, but can't really do miracles. I have Klipsch RC-64iii in my other system, but that one is paired with Klipsch towers all around and without substantial full range EQ none of them would be even possible to listen to. I can't imagine that RC-64iii could work in my other setup at all, even with substantial EQ.

My last point is that often centre speakers might be matched with towers in timbre, but not in size, which IMO causes substantial issues with front soundstage. Some notable examples would be new SVS Pinnacle towers or a bit more mature Arendal 1723 towers. Both have underwhelming center to keep up with such large towers.
I wholeheartedly agree, this Revel C426BE is a truly excellent center channel. It's by far the best I've ever had, that's for sure. All of this Be Performa line seem to measure exceptionally well and sound excellent. I know mine all do! I don't believe that they developed much of a following however and am not even sure that they are still being made.

Timbre, to go to another point made above, is just another word for accurate frequency reproduction over a time envelope and I don't believe this is the major improvement that I made (I'm using Dirac full range).

I also agree that size matters, and your example is a good one. Dynamics especially, will be unbalanced, the the likelihood that timbre changes with volume unequally also comes into play, I would think.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Timbre refers to the sonic characteristic of the driver compliment, size, design etc... Beryllium vs. Titanium vs. Silk will impart a particular sound to the highs. This will be noticeable with "airiness" and high pitch instruments. I think, as you note, it will not be as obvious until you hear a perfectly matched setup.

Mid/bass - aluminum cone vs. paper vs. poly will also give a slightly different sound. When you use speakers that have drastically different drivers across speakers, you will almost certainly notice it, particularly with voices.

I had a few systems over the years where the center was kind of the weak point, even though it was from the same family. As you noted, it underperformed. When I went to three identical, solid performing speakers across the front, it made a very noticeable improvement.
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I had a few systems over the years where the center was kind of the weak point, even though it was from the same family. As you noted, it underperformed. When I went to three identical, solid performing speakers across the front, it made a very noticeable improvement.
I've always put the least effort and money into the center. In this case, the center outperforms (but matches the two towers). Now I listen to music with Dobly Pro Logic processing, something I have never preferred before, and without 'center spread'. And as for movie surround, well, as they say 70% of the sound reproduction is from the center.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've always put the least effort and money into the center. In this case, the center outperforms (but matches the two towers). Now I listen to music with Dobly Pro Logic processing, something I have never preferred before, and without 'center spread'. And as for movie surround, well, as they say 70% of the sound reproduction is from the center.
I do think for movies and multichannel recording music, the center channel is important. Also, the so called timbre matching is sort of a myth, not entirely but just sort of... The fact is, if two speakers measured the same or similar enough, they will have the same timbre. People tend to to think it matters whether how the speakers are made, but in reality, while if made differently the likelihood of them sounding the same will naturally be less, so it is better that they are made the same, all else being equal. However, all else being equal is hardly the case, so in the end, it is the basic metrics such as frequency response, transient response, distortions (all kinds), voltage/current handling capabilities etc., that really make the difference. So, if your new speakers measure more similar to your front speakers than than the old one did, then it should be a better match sonically speakers, regardless of how and who made the speakers.

Sorry, I was trained as an engineer and I guess I ended up thinking like one too lol..., so to me, just look at the objective, verifiable facts. In audio science, there is nothing matters to what we hear than cannot be measured, if there are, and of course there are, then it still won't matter because it would mean whether the products would sound "different, better", or whatever.., would be by chance not by design anyway so in that case, unless one can to do in home comparison of numerous products, one would not be able to pick what's best...:D

The bottom line is, you succeeded in choosing your center speaker based on objective facts, not myth (again, just sort of), so, congratulations! I probably will replace my center speaker with a Revel or KEF one too, hopefully sooner than later.:)
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I believe in matching everything. I have 5 identical towers for my main bed speakers. Even my subs and ceiling speakers are the same brand as my bed layer speakers.

But everyone thinks differently. Whatever works for people. If people are 100% happy not matching anything, that’s alright too.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I believe in matching everything. I have 5 identical towers for my main bed speakers. Even my subs and ceiling speakers are the same brand as my bed layer speakers.

But everyone thinks differently. Whatever works for people. If people are 100% happy not matching anything, that’s alright too.
Sure, I would prefer that too for my 5.2 setup but that would either be impractical or lead to worse audio quality for me due to the room layout. I guess that it's quite common.

My surrounds are book shelf on stands as a tower would have blocked drivers, and even my centre is a book shelf sitting on my AV rack below my wall mounted TV.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Sure, I would prefer that too for my 5.2 setup but that would either be impractical or lead to worse audio quality for me due to the room layout. I guess that it's quite common.

My surrounds are book shelf on stands as a tower would have blocked drivers, and even my centre is a book shelf sitting on my AV rack below my wall mounted TV.
Exactly. Whatever works best for the IRL (in real life) specific situation is the key.

Whether it is matching speakers or speaker/sub placements, whatever fits best and works best for the situation is the key.

Kind of reminds of my own story of how I once bought some brand new Revel Salon2 because some people said they were the best speakers. But they weren’t the best for me, so I sold them. Also bought the Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1 because some people said they were the best speakers. But they weren’t the best for me, so I sold them. Which is what everyone does - do whatever is best for them. If it sounds good, then it is good.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I believe in matching everything. I have 5 identical towers for my main bed speakers. Even my subs and ceiling speakers are the same brand as my bed layer speakers.

But everyone thinks differently. Whatever works for people. If people are 100% happy not matching anything, that’s alright too.
Fully agreed, if you can do that with 5 identical towers than you probably have the best "match". If not, such as in my case there is no way I could use a tower for the center, let alone an identical tower, then again, it is possible to find a center that matches the towers enough for human hearing, based on specs and measurements. Remember the often mentioned Bob Carver succeeded on making a $700 SS amp sounded "exactly" like an expensive Tube amp based on some blind (iirc only) comparison listening? That's for amps, but the concept is the same.

Bottom line, trust science, it is audio devices, nothing like Covid lol..

The Carver Challenge Page 4 | Stereophile.com
 
P

Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I do think for movies and multichannel recording music, the center channel is important. Also, the so called timbre matching is sort of a myth, not entirely but just sort of... The fact is, if two speakers measured the same or similar enough, they will have the same timbre. People tend to to think it matters whether how the speakers are made, but in reality, while if made differently the likelihood of them sounding the same will naturally be less, so it is better that they are made the same, all else being equal. However, all else being equal is hardly the case, so in the end, it is the basic metrics such as frequency response, transient response, distortions (all kinds), voltage/current handling capabilities etc., that really make the difference. So, if your new speakers measure more similar to your front speakers than than the old one did, then it should be a better match sonically speakers, regardless of how and who made the speakers.

Sorry, I was trained as an engineer and I guess I ended up thinking like one too lol..., so to me, just look at the objective, verifiable facts. In audio science, there is nothing matters to what we hear than cannot be measured, if there are, and of course there are, then it still won't matter because it would mean whether the products would sound "different, better", or whatever.., would be by chance not by design anyway so in that case, unless one can to do in home comparison of numerous products, one would not be able to pick what's best...:D

The bottom line is, you succeeded in choosing your center speaker based on objective facts, not myth (again, just sort of), so, congratulations! I probably will replace my center speaker with a Revel or KEF one too, hopefully sooner than later.:)
I think using the descriptor 'timbre' for speakers is questionable. Sure the timbre of a guitar and a piano playing exactly the same note are different, for sure. But if your speakers can't reproduce the difference between those two well, I'd say it's a problem with speaker/system frequency response and dynamics (transient response).
 
P

Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I believe in matching everything. I have 5 identical towers for my main bed speakers. Even my subs and ceiling speakers are the same brand as my bed layer speakers.

But everyone thinks differently. Whatever works for people. If people are 100% happy not matching anything, that’s alright too.
Well, I was thinking matching LFC channels is important, as I said at the start. Maybe because I matched some great LR with a great C. But maybe it was not the matching but the great speakers! Wow this is so difficult to sort out properly...
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I believe in matching everything. I have 5 identical towers for my main bed speakers. Even my subs and ceiling speakers are the same brand as my bed layer speakers.

But everyone thinks differently. Whatever works for people. If people are 100% happy not matching anything, that’s alright too.
One more thing, there is the wife, when one wants to match everything. It must happen slowly, for me...
 
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Oddball

Junior Audioholic
My recent experience with matching centres goes along the line that I was not able to use the same tower as centre (to tall to clear a flat panel display placing), and these brands did not have any horizontal centres that would be matching in any respect. Thus, had to match based on what @PENG has described. It worked pretty well both times. Good centre speaker with similar basic characteristics (FR response, dynamics, distortion, close enough crossovers and same number of them, etc.), to the LR will generally be a good match.

For anyone with big bad towers, I do wholeheartedly recommend Revel C426 centre. That speaker is truly amazing and best centre I even had - by far. Not sure if people can get advantage of this deal (Ebay Germany), but if they can, it will be worth every penny. I am not affiliated in any way with the seller nor endorse them, but did get my speaker from them (in EU) in perfect and absolutely new condition.

 
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