MartinLogan Motion 60XT vs Revel Performa3 F206 vs Focal Aria 936 vs Focal Electra 1028

everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
For most music you probably don't need a sub, however it varies for most. They both have decent low end, just depends on room size, music tastes, and usage.
Just a note, I got subs for my music only system. When in my MLP I dont need them as the speakers play down to 20hz, but when moving around at moderate volume I decided that I wanted more.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Searching around for best deal on 936...
I agree with Beave on room probably having more to do with the differences you heard than the speakers - I don't know, but it seems doubtful that Focal has found some secret sauce to make such a big impact without there being something in the measurements to validate it!
Nonetheless, Focal definitely makes some nice sounding speakers!
If you are not aware of Accessories4Less, I think they are usually the best source for deals on Focals (but always do a quick check on Amazon because you never know when an open box deal might pop up)!
 
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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with Beave on room probably having more to do with the differences you heard than the speakers - I don't know, but it seems doubtful that Focal has found some secret sauce to make such a big impact without there being something i the measurements to validate it!
Nonetheless, Focal definitely makes some nice sounding speakers!
If you are not aware of Accessories4Less, I think they are usually the best source for deals on Focals (but always do a quick check on Amazon because you never know when an open box deal might pop up)!
The 906 measures very well, that combined with difference in sound naturally heard is probably why. I was very impressed with that tweeter.

Those Cantons should be a consideration too.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Some of you may know I have presently the ML 35XTi in my office room for 2 channel music and I've been happy with those mostly..,barring the Sub issue with Sonos Amp(which is now replaced with my Marantz SR7010 for now). While it sounds great in the high/mid range, lacking a bit in the lower end. I dont listen usually to music with heavy bass or at loud volumes(<75db mostly). At the same time, I've been passively looking to replace my stereo DefTechs in the family room ( not bad, but not in the same league as my Focals & MLs), so could move the 35XTs there.

So I've been auditioning the ML Motion 60XT the last few days and really really impressed with them..far more dynamic, indulging , outstanding clarity and bass performance..,compared to the ML's bookshelves. Sound similar to my Focal 826 towers which are in my HT..there's something to be said of well integrated towers than bookshelf/sub combos for 2 channel music. I'm sure they'd have a dominating presence in my office room but does have spousal approval! I could run these full range with no sub..,the bass reproduction is that impressive, but obviously dont go that low, which may not be that critical for the type of music I listen to.

But before pulling the trigger on them for close to $2K, I was looking at the Revel Concerto2 F36 & Revel Performa3 F206( couple of others in this range) ..,but havent had a chance to demo those. I did demo against ML motion 40 and definitely liked the 60 better..for some reason the 60 was more towards my liking(less brighter, more neutral .but still very accurate). Most of the reviews pit the F36 against GoldenEar Triton Five, MartinLogan Motion 40, Monitor Audio 300 etc..obviously in this range. F206 may be comparable to the 60XTs, but they havent gone down in price while the 60Xts can be had <2K .

Any experience/thoughts on these two Revels (vs ML 60XTs ?)
I've heard the ML 40 & 60...the Revel F206/208.

We've already crossed wires on the 40 vs 60, as a small group of us heard them at BB Magnolia preferred the 40s, but admittedly we all heard them with subs...not 2.0 The midrange was just so much cleaner than the 60.

The 40 with subs would be my preference over the 60 w/o subs.

If you just want to play them 2.0...The Revel F206 is not going to have the bass of the ML 60, but imo is a better midrange, and the F208 is no contest, clearly superior to the ML60, but as you mentioned, it's not really in the same price range.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
I've heard the ML 40 & 60...the Revel F206/208.

We've already crossed wires on the 40 vs 60, as a small group of us heard them at BB Magnolia preferred the 40s, but admittedly we all heard them with subs...not 2.0 The midrange was just so much cleaner than the 60.

The 40 with subs would be my preference over the 60 w/o subs.

If you just want to play them 2.0...The Revel F206 is not going to have the bass of the ML 60, but imo is a better midrange, and the F208 is no contest, clearly superior to the ML60, but as you mentioned, it's not really in the same price range.
Thanks for sharing your experience.., interesting, becos we(I & wife) both felt the Motion 40 was brighter than the 60 and obviously doesnt have the same bass reproduction as the 60. Both listened to, without sub , in the same room, with same setup, same source..,just switching the speakers , at Magnolia. The 60 was more neutral, we felt. I wanted the 40 to perform better, probably a better fit for my office ( & save few dollars) , but it wasnt the case.

Also heard the newer 60XTi , in the same room. Did not hear any significant difference vs 60..,pretty much same, I'd say and not worth the cost differential. ML had admitted to this also , in one of the interviews (ie more of aesthetic upgrade than perf).

Yes 2.0.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
The Aria 936s have a reputation for having a bit of excess in the midbass, which may give the impression that they go lower than they actually do.

You can see from these measurements that the bass hump is larger than in most of his other measurements. (There is usually a hump due to his measurement technique. But this hump is larger than most.)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-aria-936-loudspeaker-measurements
You're referring to this assessment of the reviewer ?

"A large part of the upper-bass peak apparent in this graph will be due to the inevitable exaggeration of the nearfield measurement technique. But with the overlap between the outputs of the three woofers and the midrange drive-unit in the same region, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Aria 936 will have too much upper-bass energy in all but very large rooms. I note that Bob Deutsch found that the Focal's bass sounded extended, but without the low frequencies sounding "boomy or bloated," which suggests that the woofer alignment is on the overdamped side. Though the tuning frequencies of the ports bracket 40Hz, close to the frequency of the lowest string of the electric bass and double bass, RD did comment on the Aria 936's excellent low-frequency extension; I suspect that this is actually related to the speaker's exaggerated upper bass. "

Yeah, with 3 woofers & midrange driver in the same region , am not too surprised on the exaggerated bass. It didnt really show up in my auditioning with different tracks though..very natural and not too pronounced like the 60XT.
To me, between the two, feels like the ML60XT maybe a little bit better suited for home theater applications(with fantastic overall reproduction, clarity,punchier bass, greater energy) and the Aria a little bit better for 2 channel music(with its outstanding sound stage,smoothness & clarity)..,but am sure both can do the job very well in either application. For eg, the lower Focal 826 is whats in my HT , although with a huge SVS Sub, crossing over at 80hz.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
The impedance and electrical phase of the mid bass and upper bass make this a tough load for amps. I would not run these speakers on any AVR. A robust outboard amplifier is pretty much a requirement for those speakers.
Hi, can you elaborate this pls..

from the Peak SPL Calculator , I get 0.2W requirement to hit my average listening level (75db) , with Aria 936's measured sensitivity of 89.5 dB (Focal rates them at 92dB) at 11ft listening position for 2 channels.
1579628567599.png


Allowing for a 20db peaks , over average , I get 20W power requirement.

Still planning to use my current AVR Marantz SR7010 to drive the 2 channels ( things could change in future).
They measure well for 2 channels Marantz SR7010 S&V measurements
1579628907343.png
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Hi, can you elaborate this pls..

from the Peak SPL Calculator , I get 0.2W requirement to hit my average listening level (75db) , with Aria 936's measured sensitivity of 89.5 dB (Focal rates them at 92dB) at 11ft listening position for 2 channels.
View attachment 33523

Allowing for a 20db peaks , over average , I get 20W power requirement.

Still planning to use my current AVR Marantz SR7010 to drive the 2 channels ( things could change in future).
They measure well for 2 channels Marantz SR7010 S&V measurements
View attachment 33524
SPL is achieved, but most AVRs cant handle very low impedance (especially at certain frequencies), and combined with phase angle it can put a real strain on the amp sec8.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
SPL is achieved, but most AVRs cant handle very low impedance (especially at certain frequencies), and combined with phase angle it can put a real strain on the amp sec8.
So 936 is rated 8 Ohms nominal impedence & 2.8 Ohms minimum impedence..confirmed by the measurements
1579630476787.png


You think the SR7010 cant handle it , given the posted S&V test bench results of the aVR ?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Hi, can you elaborate this pls..

from the Peak SPL Calculator , I get 0.2W requirement to hit my average listening level (75db) , with Aria 936's measured sensitivity of 89.5 dB (Focal rates them at 92dB) at 11ft listening position for 2 channels.
View attachment 33523

Allowing for a 20db peaks , over average , I get 20W power requirement.

Still planning to use my current AVR Marantz SR7010 to drive the 2 channels ( things could change in future).
They measure well for 2 channels Marantz SR7010 S&V measurements
View attachment 33524
The SR7010 may be able to handle those speakers, but that impedance and phase would put a serious strain on all but the highest end AVRs. It will be pulling a whole lot of current through the amp at a heavily used frequency range.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
At lower volume yes, but I still would have a more robust amp for them.
So like posted earlier, at 75db average & 95 dB peak, need only 20W , which is very well within the comfort zone of this AVR.
Doubling that , still puts the power requirement at 40W.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks for sharing your experience.., interesting, becos we(I & wife) both felt the Motion 40 was brighter than the 60 and obviously doesnt have the same bass reproduction as the 60. Both listened to, without sub , in the same room, with same setup, same source..,just switching the speakers , at Magnolia. The 60 was more neutral, we felt. I wanted the 40 to perform better, probably a better fit for my office ( & save few dollars) , but it wasnt the case.

Also heard the newer 60XTi , in the same room. Did not hear any significant difference vs 60..,pretty much same, I'd say and not worth the cost differential. ML had admitted to this also , in one of the interviews (ie more of aesthetic upgrade than perf).

Yes 2.0.
2.0...the bass extension makes it a fairly easy decision between the MLs. Interesting that we thought the 60 sounded a little "warmer" (I don't know how that equates to "natural") in the midrange, and you guys felt the 40 was brighter which I agree with. After playing the content over and over on different speakers, as I started hearing more neutral speakers, such as my current Salks, imo the 40s+sub seem to be closer to recording.

If you want a more neutral speaker to play 2.0...the F208, or Monitor Audio Gold 300 are really strong OEM speakers for 2.0 usage. But again, they are different animals price wise.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
So like posted earlier, at 75db average & 95 dB peak, need only 20W , which is very well within the comfort zone of this AVR.
Doubling that , still puts the power requirement at 40W.
Do you have a SPL meter or phone app for one? If so next time you listen to the system you have back the seat to MLP and see what low is for you.
 
N

nonametofame

Audiophyte
Thanks for creating this thread AVUser. I appreciate you sharing your experiences with different sets of speakers and trying to be objective about your listening goals, and impressions.
I added the 60Xts in late November, as my goal was upgrading from some vintage Def Techs (BP8s), and have been enjoying them immensely. I wanted to get some speakers that were more pleasant for 2 ch music listening, but didn't want to give up that large soundstage and spaciousness of the DTs (Their bi-polar design is great for this, but mediocre for imaging, clarity and balance for music).
I did have the 40s (which I returned) and I liked them both in my setup. Your impressions mirror my own, except I did audition them in my own living room. 40s were punchy, with great midrange, and excitement, but lacked scale neutrality and that wide soundstage, compared to the 60s. My final decision came down to the center channel (which is so critical to HT), since the 60Xts matched better with the 50XT center (larger tweeter). So remember to keep that in mind too, a high quality, and cost effective matching center, that can hang with the fronts.
Ultimately, I felt the 60s met the goal I had of maintaining that large scale sound of the front stage, and running them full range for 2ch music has resulted in a pleasant, full, and luxurious listening experience for all types of music.
Some other notes-
-Running the 60XTs separately on a Parasound A21, and remaining channels on an A51.
-Dirac helped me tame some of the bloated bass I was getting in my 13x17 room (right speaker close to wall)
-Also running the front speakers as large, and the other remaining bed channels crossed at 80hz with 2 PB16s
-50XT is a great match and keeps up with the front stage
 
M

mtrot

Full Audioholic
Hmm, interesting that both the 936 and XT60 seem to have a bit of that mid bass hump. Does anybody know if the Aria 948 has that same hump, or is it more flat in that frequency region? It would be nice to avoid that, if possible.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
Do you have a SPL meter or phone app for one? If so next time you listen to the system you have back the seat to MLP and see what low is for you.
yes SPL meter , where my measurement came from..
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
yes SPL meter , where my measurement came from..
Sorry I had seen the post and forgot. Without the speakers being in room that portion is still undecided, I still stand by my recommendation of a stouter amp for the focals. BTW have you considered other manufacturers? Also where do you live?
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
Sorry I had seen the post and forgot. Without the speakers being in room that portion is still undecided, I still stand by my recommendation of a stouter amp for the focals. BTW have you considered other manufacturers? Also where do you live?
The measured avg SPL , is in my room with a pair of MartinLogan 35XTs in 2 channel music setup with Marantz SR7010..,and these existing speakers infact measured 89 dB sensitivity , lower than the Focals.

The audition in store (room treated) is also with Marantz AVR (SR6014).

The power requirements are based on dB SPL( 75 dB avg, 95 db Peak), Speaker sensitivity(89.5 dB), MLP ( 11ft), #Speakers(2) , Speaker placement.

So how will, swapping the ML bookshelves with a pair of Focal or ML towers , going to change the avg SPL requirement of 75 dB/95 db peak ?.

Even if I were to double the power requirement(+ 3db), its 40w and double again , 80W. I dont listen to listen anything louder than this..certainly not at reference levels.

Like I posted earlier, SR7010 is a top of the line Marantz AVR , that was in my HT , for 5 years now , playing MOVIES LOUD with my Focal 826V, with even lower sensitivity.

Or are you guys saying 201w with 2 channels driven into 4 Ohm load , is not clean power at 0.1% THD !?

1579644061733.png


I standby this , unless you guys convince me otherwise ;-)
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
Thanks for creating this thread AVUser. I appreciate you sharing your experiences with different sets of speakers and trying to be objective about your listening goals, and impressions.
I added the 60Xts in late November, as my goal was upgrading from some vintage Def Techs (BP8s), and have been enjoying them immensely. I wanted to get some speakers that were more pleasant for 2 ch music listening, but didn't want to give up that large soundstage and spaciousness of the DTs (Their bi-polar design is great for this, but mediocre for imaging, clarity and balance for music).
I did have the 40s (which I returned) and I liked them both in my setup. Your impressions mirror my own, except I did audition them in my own living room. 40s were punchy, with great midrange, and excitement, but lacked scale neutrality and that wide soundstage, compared to the 60s. My final decision came down to the center channel (which is so critical to HT), since the 60Xts matched better with the 50XT center (larger tweeter). So remember to keep that in mind too, a high quality, and cost effective matching center, that can hang with the fronts.
Ultimately, I felt the 60s met the goal I had of maintaining that large scale sound of the front stage, and running them full range for 2ch music has resulted in a pleasant, full, and luxurious listening experience for all types of music.
Some other notes-
-Running the 60XTs separately on a Parasound A21, and remaining channels on an A51.
-Dirac helped me tame some of the bloated bass I was getting in my 13x17 room (right speaker close to wall)
-Also running the front speakers as large, and the other remaining bed channels crossed at 80hz with 2 PB16s
-50XT is a great match and keeps up with the front stage
thanks for sharing your experience. Glad to hear the 60XTs are serving you well in the 2ch music config. They're great!
The thread is also around 2.0 music , to replace my existing ML35XTi pair in office..., not home theater.
 

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