Marantz Stereo 70s

[M Code]

I was having lunch yesterday with a friend, who's the regional sales manager for KEF and he was telling me about someone who wanted the same speakers that were part of the subject of a recent AH thread. In the thread, the OP was telling about his system and we got to the subject of blowing speakers, power output, volume control displays and how few actually understand what they're looking at. At one point, I said "People just need to read the manual" and he started laughing. I then said "I'm here all week- try the Veal" because he worked in retail AV sales for a long time and this is still a big problem.

FYI- rated output IS NOT at fully cranked volume control, it's around 12:00-1:00 on most receivers with a rotary volume control. The only reason it goes farther is because some source material is at a lower level, so it needs to be turned up. We repaired a lot of speakers in the late-'70s-through the 1980s......

Then, there are the AVRs with 0-100 or a readout in -xxxdB. 0-100 tells nobody anything. The taper of the control isn't known, so it's all guesswork. Using the -xxxdB scale doesn't tell a lot of people anything because they don't understand decibels and it's the scale I use for all of my installations when possible because it provides a visual landmark during instructions- I tell people that they shouldn't pass -15dB if I can't set a limit and if I can do that, I ALWAYS set it at that point because it allows the system to have some headroom and since I always lock the configuration, they can't mess with it unless they figure out that it only takes a mouse click to unlock it. OTOH, if they change the limit, blow speakers and change it back to where I set it, I know they did it because there's no way the speakers will blow at my setting. I would prefer that unlocking required a password, but.....

I had a customer around 1980 who bought the same model of speakers that I owned and with his new Pioneer SX-780, he roasted the mids and tweeters. Someone from the service department told him that they were damaged from abuse and I can't think of a single speaker manufacturer that covers damage to more than one driver in a system. His dad came in to give us what-for and he loudly said "My son doesn't use his system that way!". I asked if he's at home all day, to see how it's used and he calmly said "Can you call when it's done?". I intervened in the billing and since we were the second US dealer for that brand, they wouldn't have turned us down for a warranty claim, so the dad was very happy when he found out that there would be no charge.

I ran into the kid about fifteen years ago at a Rush show and he asked if I was the guy from the stereo store. When I told him I didn't recognize him, he said "You told me I blew my speakers in a way that you had never seen" and when I said "Oh, I remember now", he just hung his head.

I can't comment for other brands but for the Harman/Arcam/JBL AVRs and processors the volume dB scale does have a purpose....
Assuming all the channel trim controls are set @ 0, when the volume dB indicator shows 0dB, it means that when inputting a signal of 1V RMS. If the unit has built-in amplifiers it will deliver its rated output power @ 1kHz. If the unit is a preamp/processor without any built-in amplifiers and the volume dB indicator shows 0dB, it will deliver its rated output voltage 1V RMS(single ended) or 2V RMS(balanced)..

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How old are you??????????????

I’m a vampire.

 

[Tankini]

It's not using a crossover so limited 2.1 (and there is no native 2.1 content)....but I thought Yamahas did have a mode where sub/crossover can be used in 2ch mode....

, On that AVR, when in Stereo two channel only and front L/R mains set to large, only way I can get 2.1, Sub to receive a signal is to go into settings and click on" Extra bass" than and only than the OSD, In settings information will show 2.1. Turn extra bass off, shows 2.0 but of course you can Actually hear the difference without seeing 2.1. Now sure if L/R mains are set to small Sub is receiving signal no matter if extra bass is on or not. After reading PENG comments of, true 2.1 opened me up Thought of the process, he makes a good point.

Edit: I just went into settings, set L/R mains to small. In Stereo 2 channel 2.1 shows no matter if "extra bass is set to on or off. Switched back to large L/R mains and only showed 2.0 went into setting again to turn on extra bass, 2.1 pops up in OSD. PENG is Definitely onto something I believe he's right, but what do I know. I do know this, in 2.1 L/R mains set to large.

I had to go into PEQ and set my 4 bands that Yamaha gives to adjust. Freq.( Hz ), than set Q and than my gain (dB) took me a little time playing with those settings to match where my mains drop. Of course, no tone controls set on, no DSP, no YPAO set on, no Enhancer set to on.

Just the Extra bass on to get a signal to the sub. Ever since doing that, I'll never use Tone controls, or anything associated with DSP. But that's Me, other's may not like the way I have my 2.1 set up. Just in case you ask; yes Hz is set max on back of Sub and Volume set just above 9 O'clock just pass on the volume knob. Again, PENG is right, why no 2.1 RAC (room auto correct). Anyway love the way my system sounds in 2.1.

 

[lovinthehd]

, On that AVR, when in Stereo two channel only and front L/R mains set to large, only way I can get 2.1, Sub to receive a signal is to go into settings and click on" Extra bass" than and only than the OSD, In settings information will show 2.1. Turn extra bass off, shows 2.0 but of course you can Actually hear the difference without seeing 2.1. Now sure if L/R mains are set to small Sub is receiving signal no matter if extra bass is on or not. After reading PENG comments of, true 2.1 opened me up Thought of the process, he makes a good point.

So you're differentiating when you actually have an LFE signal (downmixed from 5.1 or better I assume)?

 

[Tankini]

So you're differentiating when you actually have an LFE signal (downmixed from 5.1 or better I assume)?

Post above, yours. With Extra bass on L/R mains set to larger for 2.1 only, With Yamaha's extra bass on when L/R mains set to large to get the Sub a Signal. LFE?, LFE 5.1 signal downmixed? Or is the extra bass just a discrete signal at a set 120 hz, for 2.1 when speaker's L/R mains only are set to large and in Stereo 2.0, extra bass set to on sends just a discrete single, so you have .1 sub. Yamaha does have a nice PEQ for manual settings.

 

[gene]

The Marantz Stereo 70s: A 2CH HiFi AV Receiver?

The new Marantz Stereo 70s ($1,000) is a 2-channel receiver with 8K HDMI connectivity, 75 wpc, and uses Marantz’s HDAM preamp modules. How does it compare to similar Marantz Cinema products? Read on.

www.audioholics.com

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Post above, yours. With Extra bass on L/R mains set to larger for 2.1 only, With Yamaha's extra bass on when L/R mains set to large to get the Sub a Signal, LFE? Is it LFE 5.1 signal downmixed? Or is the extra bass when set on and speakers L/R mains only are set to large and in Stereo 2.0 extra bass set on sends just a single, so you have .1 sub.

I could have missed something , but in this case it seems 2.1 is in the speaker layout only. Speakers set to large AND extra bass ON makes the AVR send a duplicate bass signal below a specific low pass frequency to the subwoofer. This is NOT .1, only a copy of the bass below the low pass. Real .1 is a discrete signal encoded into a film soundtrack.
FWIW, LFE+mains, double bass, extra bass etc. should only be used with mains that are very bass capable.
If I’m talking out of turn, apologies.

 

[gene]

I could have missed something , but in this case it seems 2.1 is in the speaker layout only. Speakers set to large AND extra bass ON makes the AVR send a duplicate bass signal below a specific low pass frequency to the subwoofer. This is NOT .1, only a copy of the bass below the low pass. Real .1 is a discrete signal encoded into a film soundtrack.
FWIW, LFE+mains, double bass, extra bass etc. should only be used with mains that are very bass capable.
If I’m talking out of turn, apologies.

LFE only goes to the mains on this receiver IF sub is set to off and a soundtrack with LFE content is present.

 

[MrBoat]

Most people don't use the power their amplifiers can deliver. It's the ones who crank the snot out of their system who need more power.

God help them if they ever get that bar raised then. My point being, there are plenty (too many) of light duty amps. Is why it is also easy to find the lower powered vintage ones at a bargain still.

Take two channels of a potent AVR, along with the bass management features, pre outs, and just trim off the other 3-5-7. . . channels and video stuff. 100-120 watts/8Ohms.

A lot of us free-range kids of the '70s got to hear more powerful systems and once that happened, that was the new benchmark. There was no going back. Between that and concerts, and how much more social audio was back then, we all pretty much moved right up to bigger stuff.

I have a lot of amps now, including my first Pioneer from '76. I have class A-D, all shapes and sizes, with only 5 of them, 100 watts or over. But now my needs appreciate full function bass management and perhaps separate sub outs, and an amp that can drive any speaker like my AVR does.

I have tried lower power and it always left me hanging.

I personally don't need a new amp, but if I was, it would not be one of these. I'll just keep buying used AVRs.

 

[MrBoat]

See what you started? Well done, Sir!

I started to get excited when I saw the Marantz on the AH review page. I just knew they wouldn't put all that designer lipstick on a sub-100W amp. I'd rather have that money put into my ears instead of my eyes. I was disappointed.

I agree with the AVR comparison reasoning. If not for using AVRs, I would not have thought to want these features for 2 channel and relatively affordable, in the first place. These pricing games the marketers play just makes it all seem too premeditated. They are probably afraid too many people won't bother with surround, if they get hooked on a more potent 2.1 system first.

I thought modern amps must be making up the power differences via some magic computer solved efficiencies or some such or that they must have defeated Ohms Law. That 50WPC/8Ohms must be the new 100. It was just as I remembered it though. The same feeling of it 'almost being enough.' Granted, I can still enjoy it for what it is, but nothing lights me up like the more powerful system does.

I am really glad I didn't trust the new ways entirely when I chose my speakers and power for my main system.

 

[PENG]

I could see no reason why this receiver can not produce 2.1 sound like any other receiver. So yes, it does do 2.1 if you have a sub.

Exactly, so why don't they do it? I guess they are just not innovative enough, as HD said there was no real 2.1 contents so they never thought there would be a need, not realizing more and more people do see the benefits of using room eq/correction, the good ones that work anyway.

I know you don't believe in room correction so that may be why you are not thinking about the "real" 2.1 I tried to define, but obviously failed to make it clear.

So, let me try again, 2.1 that many 2 channel receiver, network streamers, and integrated amps claim typically mean you can connect a passive subwoofer to the subout(s) provided, but that subwoofer output(s) is/or just connected in parallel with the L/R channels so the contents would be exactly the same.

The "real" 2.1 that I want to have, would have the .1, or if 2, as so people call it, .2, would be like a distinct channel such that the receiver, or integrated amp would have the capability to process 3, or 4 channels, and that's why is needed to benefit from XT32 SubEQ HT, or Dirac Live Bass Control.

To get around this, I would have to purchase a 4, 5 or more channel DAC as use USB I/O with my PC/laptop, in order to run DLBC and play music with window applications.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Who won't, Marantz? Did you look at the photo of the back? Sub out jacks are next to the Audio In jacks.

That's pretty expensive for 75W, though. Denon has a stereo receiver that's rated at 80W for a lot less and it has most, in not all, of the same features.

It's not true 2.1... There's no bass management other than low-pass for the sub. Turning on sub out doesn't high pass the main speakers; they are always full range..

I posted this in the older Marantz thread... it's basically just a NR1200 with 8K HDMI. Not worth $1000 by any standard.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Exactly, so why don't they do it? I guess they are just not innovative enough, as HD said there was no real 2.1 contents so they never thought there would be a need, not realizing more and more people do see the benefits of using room eq/correction, the good ones that work anyway.

I know you don't believe in room correction so that may be why you are not thinking about the "real" 2.1 I tried to define, but obviously failed to make it clear.

So, let me try again, 2.1 that many 2 channel receiver, network streamers, and integrated amps claim typically mean you can connect a passive subwoofer to the subout(s) provided, but that subwoofer output(s) is/or just connected in parallel with the L/R channels so the contents would be exactly the same.

The "real" 2.1 that I want to have, would have the .1, or if 2, as so people call it, .2, would be like a distinct channel such that the receiver, or integrated amp would have the capability to process 3, or 4 channels, and that's why is needed to benefit from XT32 SubEQ HT, or Dirac Live Bass Control.

To get around this, I would have to purchase a 4, 5 or more channel DAC as use USB I/O with my PC/laptop, in order to run DLBC and play music with window applications.

I use a MiniDSP 2x4 with Dirac connected to the preamp out of my NR1200, which then goes to an external amp for the main speakers. I don't really need a sub but if I had smaller speakers I could just put subs on the two unused channels of the 2x4.

This ASR thread shows the cal results with 2.0 and Dirac (it was with the antiquated DDRC-22A, but after I bought the 2x4 the results were the same).

MiniDSP DDRC-22A / Dirac Live in 2.0 Living Room System

Hot off the heels of improving my maelstrom of a mancave with a MiniDSP DDRC-22D, I obtained its analog I/O cousin the DDRC-22A and implemented it into my 2.0 living room system. The heart of the system is the Marantz NR1200 AVR. It makes going 2 channel easy, and it has stereo preamp outputs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[PENG]

I use a MiniDSP 2x4 with Dirac connected to the preamp out of my NR1200, which then goes to an external amp for the main speakers. I don't really need a sub but if I had smaller speakers I could just put subs on the two unused channels of the 2x4.

This ASR thread shows the cal results with 2.0 and Dirac (it was with the antiquated DDRC-22A, but after I bought the 2x4 the results were the same).

MiniDSP DDRC-22A / Dirac Live in 2.0 Living Room System

Hot off the heels of improving my maelstrom of a mancave with a MiniDSP DDRC-22D, I obtained its analog I/O cousin the DDRC-22A and implemented it into my 2.0 living room system. The heart of the system is the Marantz NR1200 AVR. It makes going 2 channel easy, and it has stereo preamp outputs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I am doing the same with my 2X4 HD, but that's temporary, until I can what I need to do it right (i.e. by ocd standard). The issue I don't like using the minidsp 2X4 HD are:

- The output is limited to 2 V maximum, that's usually plenty but for my 25.5 dB gain class D amps I would want 4 V just to feel good about it.

- The 2X4HD's measured SINAD is not great, worse than that of the Denon AVRs let alone SOTA.

So, while I don't like it, but at least with the minidsp I can set crossover for the mains.

The main issue is that what you are I are doing, cannot do DLBC, you obviously know as like me you are running Dirac in 2.0. That subout(s) from the NR1200 are just parallel with the L/R channels, no different than using a Y splitter with the L/R pre outs.

 

[highfigh]

There may have been the odd tweeter with ferrofluid in the seventies. However, I don't recall seeing it in the raw speakers parts suppliers catalogs until the early eighties. The first tweeters I bought that contained ferrofluid were the Dynaudio D21 AF and D 28AF. I may have bought a German made Titanium tweeter around that time probably 1979 come to think of it. I can tell you ferrofluid tweeters were not common until around 1980 give or take a year. As usual the Audiophools were against them and said they 'blurred' the sound, or some nonsense like that.

Madisound sold the Phillips- a local speaker builder used them in a lot of his models. I first heard them in Feb, 1978 and, while they aren't Dynaudio/Seas/ScanSpeak, etc, they were definitely a step up from a lot of what was out there at the time. We had a Phillips display with woofers, mids, tweeters and their crossovers, for people who wanted to build their own or replace drivers. While it's not the best way to go about it, the improvement was good enough for many people, especially considering the low-middle priced speaker wasteland at the time. We also had Playback Electronics, Pacific Stereo, Shaak Electronics, Lafayette, Olson Electronics, Radio Shack and many other national chains, as well as the many local stores that existed back then and EVERYONE had private label speakers. Some of them were really bad.

Around the same time I started working there, someone who's now a really good friend started and he made the store owner start buying Peerless and Audax/Polydax drivers.

Another friend from that stereo store was the service and store manager at the second location- when I told him I had a pair of the Phillips car speakers with the AD-0163 tweeters that have Ferro Fluid, he asked how they sound when the outside temperature reaches single digits. Just to hear his reaction, I told him I crank the volume to clipping, so the voice coils could become really hot and make the fluid move more easily. I could hear him cringing over the phone.

 

[highfigh]

You got a link? Would very much like to read up on.

If you search YouTube, we may never hear from you again- I didn't see the specific video, but there are many others. Very interesting stuff.

 

[highfigh]

I am doing the same with my 2X4 HD, but that's temporary, until I can what I need to do it right (i.e. by ocd standard). The issue I don't like using the minidsp 2X4 HD are:

- The output is limited to 2 V maximum, that's usually plenty but for my 25.5 dB gain class D amps I would want 4 V just to feel good about it.

- The 2X4HD's measured SINAD is not great, worse than that of the Denon AVRs let alone SOTA.

So, while I don't like it, but at least with the minidsp I can set crossover for the mains.

The main issue is that what you are I are doing, cannot do DLBC, you obviously know as like me you are running Dirac in 2.0. That subout(s) from the NR1200 are just parallel with the L/R channels, no different than using a Y splitter with the L/R pre outs.

What is the input sensitivity spec for the ClassD amps? If it isn't higher than 2V, don't worry about it- it's not like the amplifiers need or can use higher voltage and it's not a high current application.

 

[highfigh]

I can't comment for other brands but for the Harman/Arcam/JBL AVRs and processors the volume dB scale does have a purpose....
Assuming all the channel trim controls are set @ 0, when the volume dB indicator shows 0dB, it means that when inputting a signal of 1V RMS. If the unit has built-in amplifiers it will deliver its rated output power @ 1kHz. If the unit is a preamp/processor without any built-in amplifiers and the volume dB indicator shows 0dB, it will deliver its rated output voltage 1V RMS(single ended) or 2V RMS(balanced)..

Just my $0.02...

Yeah, rated at 1KHz.....great......

I Understand that the dB scale has a purpose, but it's still not associated with the unknown speaker sensitivity, so it's still only a rough indication. Still better than 0-100, though.

"But ours go to eleven"- Nigel Tufnel, in 'This Is Spinal Tap'

I bet that if you show the part that starts with 'Assuming..." to most AV consumers, their eyes will glaze over- that's part of my problem with people looking for specs & performance when they don't understand what they're asking and this has barely changed since 1978, when I started selling audio. It's a sad comment on how the industry has failed to inform the general AV public.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah OK that's just what this form needs more people just like you no wonder this place is dead.

Sure, bitch at the one who gave you enough info to do the search- why is it so hard for you do take the ten seconds to do the search?

The comment about never seeing you again didn't mean I was telling you to go away.

 

[highfigh]

My bad, stayed up late, didn't go to bed till 5am. Apologies, will delete that post. Thank you for the clarification. I was feeling left out. .

I understand- I woke up at 1AM and didn't go back to sleep until 5AM. That was great......