Marantz SR6014 vs. Denon AVR-X3600H

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks EBN. This is great info.

I'm perfectly fine to wait till Jun-Aug; though a factor will be how long it'll take to trickle down to the Philippines. Availability may not be as quick as the US.

I did read about the Sabre DACs in other reviews, but the differences between the A2080 and A3080 are good to know. I don't believe I looked into the A3080.
Since EBN mentioned some DAC specs, and I know most audioholics around here do not think DACs are a factor anymore, so let's take a look of the numbers.

Yamaha's ES9006/9007 for models below the flag ship RX-A3080
THD+N : -102 dB, that is 0.000794%

Denon/Marantz's AKM4458 for models below the flag ship AVR-X8500H and AV8805
THD+N: -107 dB, that is 0.000447%

So Denon/Marantz's have the better DACs in terms of THD+N, but I don't think even certified golden ears can tell the difference between 0.000794% and 0.000447%.

I recommend the X3600H based on my experience with the X3400H, X4400H, and the bench measurements of some D+M and Yamaha models by ASR and Audioholics.com. And, I admit, I don't go by ears/brains, to me that's an impossible task for many reasons, and can say, been there, done that many times in the past.
 
D

DJ7675

Junior Audioholic
I currently have a Yamaha RX-V375 5.1 channel amp, and am looking to move to a 9.2 channel amp. I was trying to decide between 7.2.2, and 5.2.4, and am now leaning towards 5.2.4. Do share your thoughts if you believe 7.2.2 would be better.
Go with 4 height speakers for sure. If your room layout is longish and can accomodate rear speakers, go 7.2.4. If your room is shorter you won't have much separation between your top rear and your surround back and it won't be worth it. If you do have the room, it is very worth it in my opinion. There are quite a lot 7.1 channel movies that take advantage of those channels in addition to the DTSX and Atmos movies. On the 7.1 movies you can choose to listen to them natively in 7.1 or upmix them with the dobly upmixer.
 
V

virtualdanger

Enthusiast
How about room dimensions? If it is something larger than 12X18X8, I would suggest 7.1.4. I agree 5.1.4 is better than 7.1.2, it is just so obvious, that I think it is common sense..:D
The room is not a dedicated home theater room, rather a re-purposed living room. For the most part its 16.4 x 9.4 feet. It is separated from the dining area it opens out into by curtains.

Below is the existing room layout:
  • I'm using a roof mounted projector
  • Front Left and Right speakers are slightly off-axis, pointed towards the listening position
  • Surround Left and Right are sadly a little behind the listening position (as they are wall mounted)
2510 HT Option 1.jpg


As part of this upgrade, in addition to the Atmos, I am also looking to take Gene's advice and add a second sub-woofer.

Below is a proposed room layout:
  • Existing Sub 1 position has been changed
  • Sub 2 has been included
  • Also providing an option for Surround Left and Right (Let me know if this is better suited than the existing position)
  • Another option is to leave the Surround speakers as they currently are (first image above), and just move the Couch a little behind.
2510 HT Option 2.jpg
 
V

virtualdanger

Enthusiast
Since EBN mentioned some DAC specs, and I know most audioholics around here do not think DACs are a factor anymore, so let's take a look of the numbers.

Yamaha's ES9006/9007 for models below the flag ship RX-A3080
THD+N : -102 dB, that is 0.000794%

Denon/Marantz's AKM4458 for models below the flag ship AVR-X8500H and AV8805
THD+N: -107 dB, that is 0.000447%

So Denon/Marantz's have the better DACs in terms of THD+N, but I don't think even certified golden ears can tell the difference between 0.000794% and 0.000447%.

I recommend the X3600H based on my experience with the X3400H, X4400H, and the bench measurements of some D+M and Yamaha models by ASR and Audioholics.com. And, I admit, I don't go by ears/brains, to me that's an impossible task for many reasons, and can say, been there, done that many times in the past.
Makes perfect sense. Though there are theoretical differences on paper, very unlikely that it will be perceptible. Fair enough. By no means are my ears extraordinarily sensitive!

I assume you've seen the pricing info that I've provided as well. The audio store advised that there maybe a further discount available on the Marantz SR6013; but that info is to follow. Lastly, I was told by the store to also look at the Onkyo TX-RZ840, which was comparable in price to the SR6013 and X3600, but offered quite a bit more power.
 
V

virtualdanger

Enthusiast
Go with 4 height speakers for sure. If your room layout is longish and can accomodate rear speakers, go 7.2.4. If your room is shorter you won't have much separation between your top rear and your surround back and it won't be worth it. If you do have the room, it is very worth it in my opinion. There are quite a lot 7.1 channel movies that take advantage of those channels in addition to the DTSX and Atmos movies. On the 7.1 movies you can choose to listen to them natively in 7.1 or upmix them with the dobly upmixer.
Thank you DJ7675. I've pretty much decided on the 4 height speakers.

As for the 7.1, I fear that my room layout may make it difficult to setup/position. Please see the room layout images I have posted just above.

True, there are a lot of movies that are coming out with 7.1 mixes; I have several and was curious to try that out. But logistics seem difficult in addition to the 4 height speakers being a better bet.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Makes perfect sense. Though there are theoretical differences on paper, very unlikely that it will be perceptible. Fair enough. By no means are my ears extraordinarily sensitive!

I assume you've seen the pricing info that I've provided as well. The audio store advised that there maybe a further discount available on the Marantz SR6013; but that info is to follow. Lastly, I was told by the store to also look at the Onkyo TX-RZ840, which was comparable in price to the SR6013 and X3600, but offered quite a bit more power.
If you want to get one with the best verifiable specs, the 4500 is the winner (for only a little more $ than the 3600). Dealers would likely prefer to sell Marantz because of the higher margin. In Canada, the SR7013 (equivalent to the X4500H) was on sale for a little more than US$800. So it is crazy to pay so much more for the lower rank SR6013 or 6014 now just because of the C-19 and/or tariffs.
 
D

DJ7675

Junior Audioholic
Thank you DJ7675. I've pretty much decided on the 4 height speakers.

As for the 7.1, I fear that my room layout may make it difficult to setup/position. Please see the room layout images I have posted just above.

True, there are a lot of movies that are coming out with 7.1 mixes; I have several and was curious to try that out. But logistics seem difficult in addition to the 4 height speakers being a better bet.
With your room 2 surround back speakers would be hard. I believe with Denon/Marants you can choose to do a single surround back speaker. Looks like a possible spot to the right of sub2. Might be something worth considering if it is feasable with wiring, etc
 
V

virtualdanger

Enthusiast
With your room 2 surround back speakers would be hard. I believe with Denon/Marants you can choose to do a single surround back speaker. Looks like a possible spot to the right of sub2. Might be something worth considering if it is feasable with wiring, etc
Yes, I could certainly fit in a single back center speaker, but how would that work? In a 5.1 mix the receiver would upmix to 6.1, and in a 7.1 mix, the rear 2 channels will be converted to a mono mix and sent to the rear center?
 
V

virtualdanger

Enthusiast
If you want to get one with the best verifiable specs, the 4500 is the winner (for only a little more $ than the 3600). Dealers would likely prefer to sell Marantz because of the higher margin. In Canada, the SR7013 (equivalent to the X4500H) was on sale for a little more than US$800. So it is crazy to pay so much more for the lower rank SR6013 or 6014 now just because of the C-19 and/or tariffs.
Thanks Peng. So based on all the input, I have pretty much decided on the Denon X3600H.

Unless I'm able to get a sizable discount on the Marantz 6013. There is also the factor of the minimalistic display which I do not like. Any other reasons for me to keep away from the 6013?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks Peng. So based on all the input, I have pretty much decided on the Denon X3600H.

Unless I'm able to get a sizable discount on the Marantz 6013. There is also the factor of the minimalistic display which I do not like. Any other reasons for me to keep away from the 6013?
Yes, but by the same token, the 4500 has a better display than the 3600, you can see more, I think/iirc.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, I could certainly fit in a single back center speaker, but how would that work? In a 5.1 mix the receiver would upmix to 6.1, and in a 7.1 mix, the rear 2 channels will be converted to a mono mix and sent to the rear center?
No. There’s basically no support for 6.1. And a big reason it was abandoned was that it wasn’t effective, and produced funky results.
 
D

DJ7675

Junior Audioholic
Yes, I could certainly fit in a single back center speaker, but how would that work? In a 5.1 mix the receiver would upmix to 6.1, and in a 7.1 mix, the rear 2 channels will be converted to a mono mix and sent to the rear center?
Here is a link to the speaker layouts for the x3600H
As I was remembering you can set it to one speaker if that is what is available. Your receiver would send the L/R to the single rear speaker in this case.
 
M

mitebbots

Audiophyte
I thought when going to Denon x4xxx the amps were better?

The bottom line is how it sounds, measurements are less important.

not sure why 2.0 music never seems to work as well on a receiver as a dedicated 2 channel setup.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I thought when going to Denon x4xxx the amps were better?

The bottom line is how it sounds, measurements are less important.

not sure why 2.0 music never seems to work as well on a receiver as a dedicated 2 channel setup.
That is true to a point but also a myth to a point. If the harmonic profile (from distortions) is similar such as well designed class AB amps, the one that measures better may not sound audibly better to your ears but it is more accurate. Distortions are distortions, higher distortions, all else being equal, is not a good thing regardless.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Here is a link to the speaker layouts for the x3600H
As I was remembering you can set it to one speaker if that is what is available. Your receiver would send the L/R to the single rear speaker in this case.
I've heard it speculated that the Rear Surround is "officially" on its way out. It would be nice if the option hangs around, but having DTS 5.1 material sent to the Rear Surrounds instead of a Rear Center is fine. And If there is room for any rear speakers without using a shoehorn, you might as well go with the Pair. :D
 

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