Marantz SR6004 problem

[stello101]

I would sure like the OP to try a different set of 6-8ohm speakers and see. That would answer the question for sure.

Yes buying brand new speakers would most definetly solve my problems, but if I wanted new speakers I would have just bought them in the first place. At this juncture I've broken nothing yet, so I'm not ready to give up, not until something is set aflame. Also I don't have other speakers just kicking around, besides bass/guitar amps, so it's these of the tv built in speakers

The speakers measure 3.5 and 3.6 Ohms, I am ashamed I didn't measure that before i ever hooked them up, as I get a little gung-ho from time to time.

I will have time tonight to take the woofers out and check all the connections again and have a look at the crossovers. Though without taking the circuit apart how would I test it? I don't think my meter is capable of measureing the capacitors

 

[tcarcio]

I understand but what I meant was if you can try some other speakers even if you can borrow a pair and the same thing happens it isn't your speakers and you don't have to rip them apart. If it doesn't happen then your speakers are the culprit. Hope you get it figured out.

 

[stello101]

I understand but what I meant was if you can try some other speakers even if you can borrow a pair and the same thing happens it isn't your speakers and you don't have to rip them apart. If it doesn't happen then your speakers are the culprit. Hope you get it figured out.

I appolgize for the missintrepretation. This would also test the speaker wire. I MAY be able to get a set of floor demos loudspeakers from the store for a night. I am going to get some bannana clips anyways so inquiring about that wouldn't hurt.

cheers

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes buying brand new speakers would most definetly solve my problems, but if I wanted new speakers I would have just bought them in the first place. At this juncture I've broken nothing yet, so I'm not ready to give up, not until something is set aflame. Also I don't have other speakers just kicking around, besides bass/guitar amps, so it's these of the tv built in speakers

The speakers measure 3.5 and 3.6 Ohms, I am ashamed I didn't measure that before i ever hooked them up, as I get a little gung-ho from time to time.

I will have time tonight to take the woofers out and check all the connections again and have a look at the crossovers. Though without taking the circuit apart how would I test it? I don't think my meter is capable of measuring the capacitors

No you can't test caps with a multimeter. The DC resistance you measured is about where it should be, for 4 ohm speakers.

If the caps are non polarized electrolytic types they need replacing anyway.

Replace them with polypropylene caps of the same value. In my view electrolytic caps don't belong in passive crossovers. My designs never use them, never have and never will. Unfortunately they abound in speakers these days, more than on the days of old. All to meet price points in this money grubbing age.

If your receiver will not drive them after cap replacement, then they need a different source of power.

Unfortunately receivers are a necessary evil to get to those dreaded price points. However any receiver not on the $2000 dollar level, is going to reduce output significantly into four ohm loads. Receivers under the top end price brackets, will give no more than half their rated power into four ohms. If the phase angles of the speaker are adverse (common), then people who think they bought a 100 watt per channel actually only bought a 30 watt per channel receiver under what could easily be their condition of use.

Fortunately halving the power available to a speaker from 100 to 50 watts only reduces spl 3 db. That is how they are able to get away with it and the public none the wiser.

I still maintain, that if funds permit going with a pre amp and separate amplification is a big upgrade, with a decent separate amp.

No one will ever convince me that amps belong alongside the high gain stages and processing circuitry. In fact the optimal place for amps is in the speaker, and that is what we should move towards.

And to the cowardly pleb who gave me the red chicklet yesterday, for my honest opinion about receiver, identify yourself and let an honest debate begin. You can delude yourself all you want, but it will not change the facts.

 

[stello101]

I still maintain, that if funds permit going with a pre amp and separate amplification is a big upgrade, with a decent separate amp.

No one will ever convince me that amps belong alongside the high gain stages and processing circuitry. In fact the optimal place for amps is in the speaker, and that is what we should move towards.

Now before I bought my reviever what poped into my head (becasue of the 4ohm rating, and my Car audio installs0 was mounting a single channel Amp to the back of the speakers to power them. I ran this by the sales guy at the store who looked at me like I had 3 heads.

Is this what you are getting at? or something more elaborate. I don't want to start asking how much, but where is "if funds permit" going to land on the pay scale?

I am going to look into the caps more closely and try and figure out what type they are to look at replacing. I look at some of the recomended one but I don't know the rating of the ones I have....

Side note I can buy replacement crossover boards from the speaker supplier for $55 each, before I start going insane here I and going to get ahold of them again.

 

[TLS Guy]

Now before I bought my reviever what poped into my head (becasue of the 4ohm rating, and my Car audio installs0 was mounting a single channel Amp to the back of the speakers to power them. I ran this by the sales guy at the store who looked at me like I had 3 heads.

Is this what you are getting at? or something more elaborate. I don't want to start asking how much, but where is "if funds permit" going to land on the pay scale?

I am going to look into the caps more closely and try and figure out what type they are to look at replacing. I look at some of the recomended one but I don't know the rating of the ones I have....

Side note I can buy replacement crossover boards from the speaker supplier for $55 each, before I start going insane here I and going to get ahold of them again.

I would just replace the caps, it will likely be cheaper and better. If the caps are not electrolytic types, I doubt it is the caps, and you need different power

In many ways the car guys are ahead of us with active speakers and active crossover. They really have nor choice with speakers in odd places.

Passive crossovers do not truly cut it in our environment, but in the car situation they are truly useless, if you are out for good results.

Its just that the home environment is different and you get away with it sort of a lot of the time.

Now good amp modules can be had for around $20 a piece. You can now make an active crossover cheaper and better than a passive one.

True the cheaper amp modules like Tripath are not top drawer, but even those down market amp modules and an electronic crossover will do less damage than all but very costly passive crossovers and may be not even then.

As far as an amp goes. If your receiver has pre outs, for the quality of your speakers I would look at Emotiva or Behringer. However if you are planning to upgrade I always recommend the Quad 99, I don't think you can beat that for a home audio amp. It is my top recommendation on lots of grounds. It costs around $1500 USD, but can often be had for around $1000 or a little less.

 

[Seth=L]

However any receiver not on the $2000 dollar level, is going to reduce output significantly into four ohm loads. Receivers under the top end price brackets, will give no more than half their rated power into four ohms.

Seriously, how do you get your facts? This is pure conjecture at best. I'm getting tired of everyone underminding receivers. No, they aren't as capable as separates, but you and so many others blow things out of proportion with this whole, "100 watt per channel receivers only do 30 watts at 4 ohms. That's just pure nonsense.

 

[TLS Guy]

Seriously, how do you get your facts? This is pure conjecture at best. I'm getting tired of everyone underminding receivers. No, they aren't as capable as separates, but you and so many others blow things out of proportion with this whole, "100 watt per channel receivers only do 30 watts at 4 ohms. That's just pure nonsense.

Then you show me a budget receiver that maintains voltage as impedance is dropped below 8 ohms. You won't. You will find that into a resistive load even the power will be 50 watts into four ohms, let alone a reactive load.

You just can't build seven amps at that price that will.

Try it yourself, it takes 28 volts to dissipate 100 watts into a resistive 8 ohm load. If you then swap the 8 ohm resistor for a four ohm one you will find the voltage drops to 14 volts, and is not maintained at 28 volts, which would push 200 watts into four ohms. That is what high grade amps do.

To maintain a power of 100 watts into four ohms the output voltage must not drop lower than 20 volts.

To push 100 watts though an 8 ohm resistor takes 3.5 amps. To push 100 watts through a 4 ohm resistor requires 5 amps. Speaker loads will always increase the current demands over a resistive situation and the adverse impact for demand of current is always worse than for the resistive situation.

I have tested many budget amps and at best their output voltage drops in proportion to decreased load resistance.

Phase angles between voltage and current in typical speakers make the situation worse.

Buy yourself a signal generator and some power resistors and try for yourself.

However as I pointed out the spl difference between 100 watts and 50 watts is only 3 db which is not highly noticeable. So the most significant issue is that the device does not blow up or go into protection as output resistance or impedance is reduced.

However with real world speakers there is always that load with just the right phase angles to bow the amp or trip protection, in current limited output stages. That is what the OP is likely experiencing.

 

[Seth=L]

Did you even bother to read the benchtests that I linked a few pages back?

I don't care about ACD, we're only talking about these two speakers. In any case it's unbelievably rare that a receiver would be called upon to drive a 4 ohm load or less to all 5-7 speakers on a higher power status.

I like to use this receiver to illustrate that even budget receivers can have extraordinary power capabilities.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v659/rx-v659-measurements-analysis

Here's the Marantz again,

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr6004-1/sr6004-measurements

Onkyo TX-SR606

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/808onk/index3.html

Onkyo TX-sR608

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/onkyo_tx-sr608_av_receiver/index3.html

Sony STR-DN1000, a everyday receiver from Sony that even has a fair amount of power output in stereo into a 4 ohm load.

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/sony_str-dn1000_av_receiver/index5.html

Of course, you'll argue it's not imposing a load like a speaker will, so suddenly the phase angle is going to through these receivers into a tizzy and cause them to shut down, which simply is not true. Many many people on these forums own 4 ohm speakers with fairly reactive loads that work fine with their sub - $1000 receivers. The SR6004 isn't a special special case in a lack of ability.

This is why I implore you to go back and do research on receivers if your going to make judgements about their performance with no grounds for doing so. I understand if you won't do the research yourself because you don't like receivers and won't own one, but don't mislead people just because you don't know or fully understand something. I do appreciate the knowledge that you have, but like anyone anyone else you are able to make mistakes or be wrong from time to time.

 

[PENG]

Did you even bother to read the benchtests that I linked a few pages back?

I don't care about ACD, we're only talking about these two speakers. In any case it's unbelievably rare that a receiver would be called upon to drive a 4 ohm load or less to all 5-7 speakers on a higher power status.

I like to use this receiver to illustrate that even budget receivers can have extraordinary power capabilities.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v659/rx-v659-measurements-analysis

Here's the Marantz again,

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr6004-1/sr6004-measurements

Onkyo TX-SR606

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/808onk/index3.html

Onkyo TX-sR608

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/onkyo_tx-sr608_av_receiver/index3.html

Sony STR-DN1000, a everyday receiver from Sony that even has a fair amount of power output in stereo into a 4 ohm load.

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/sony_str-dn1000_av_receiver/index5.html

Of course, you'll argue it's not imposing a load like a speaker will, so suddenly the phase angle is going to through these receivers into a tizzy and cause them to shut down, which simply is not true. Many many people on these forums own 4 ohm speakers with fairly reactive loads that work fine with their sub - $1000 receivers. The SR6004 isn't a special special case in a lack of ability.

This is why I implore you to go back and do research on receivers if your going to make judgements about their performance with no grounds for doing so. I understand if you won't do the research yourself because you don't like receivers and won't own one, but don't mislead people just because you don't know or fully understand something. I do appreciate the knowledge that you have, but like anyone anyone else you are able to make mistakes or be wrong from time to time.

I am glad you provided him with ample examples even though he only asked for one. His maths are correct but his assumptions are not. Most sub $2,000 amp's power supply would not result in dropping so drastically from 28V to 14V just because you give it a 4 ohm resistive load. Anyone who have some basic (but clear) understanding of power transformers should know better. Now if he was talking about ACD (you covered that point already) well then it may be a different story.

 

[stello101]

I was able to get another working set of speakers from a friends though thye measured 4.5Ohm I set them up anyways and the same issue is occuring and these speakers. I have not been able to get a 6-8Ohm set.

 

[Seth=L]

I was able to get another working set of speakers from a friends though thye measured 4.5Ohm I set them up anyways and the same issue is occuring and these speakers. I have not been able to get a 6-8Ohm set.

What make and model are the other speakers?

 

[tcarcio]

I was able to get another working set of speakers from a friends though thye measured 4.5Ohm I set them up anyways and the same issue is occuring and these speakers. I have not been able to get a 6-8Ohm set.

Now at least you know it's not your speakers. Did you replace the speaker wire also? I would just to make sure that isn't the problem. Even an old set that you have that you know works will help.

 

[PENG]

I was able to get another working set of speakers from a friends though thye measured 4.5Ohm I set them up anyways and the same issue is occuring and these speakers. I have not been able to get a 6-8Ohm set.

Did you still measure it with a multimeter/ohmeter? If so, the reading of 4.5 ohms is just the d.c. resistance of the speaker as a whole. Without knowing how the crossover and the drivers are connected together, that 4.5 ohm reading does not mean much and it certainly is not how the manufacturer rate the impedance of the speaker.

 

[PENG]

What is the model number of your receiver?

 

[Seth=L]

What is the model number of your receiver?

Marantz SR6004.

Protip: it's in the title.

 

[stello101]

Well upon closer inspection his speakers seem to be "fake" a lable says Proline Acoustics, Digital Ready Speakers. They sound ok, but there are no specs associated with them at all.

I was able to drive them a little harder/louder than mine before tripping the safety. I swapped out the speaker cable with 16GA inwall and it is still occuring.

Yes i measured with with my multimeter. I understand that the speaker impedance does not give a full picture of the cross over and components inside the speaker but i havn't had the time to get into my speaker, and i wasn't going to dismantle my friends working speakers I was just wanting to test. Once I get a chance to get into my speakers I can try to draw out the circuit. Is there a procedure for testing a cross over?

Side note there is a POT in the cross over that I turned, and to my dissmay the tweeter stopped working. *sigh*

The model is Marantz SR6004

 

[bandphan]

I'd be wary of any speaker that's claims digital ready.

 

[stello101]

I'd be wary of any speaker that's claims digital ready.

Yes I know about the 'digital ready' scams that are normally sold out the back of trucks/bars/kijiji/craigs list but they are working 3 way speakers to test with my reciever.

 

[Seth=L]

The impedance on white van speakers are typically very unstable, more so than any quality speaker of any time period. It does not surprise me that those would trip the relays in the receiver, as those white van specials are notorious for destroying receivers by basically shorting them out. Those are known white van speakers, no doubt in my mind.

Given the nature of those speakers (which is completely uncertain) it is completely unfair and illogical to conclude the receiver has problems with 4 ohm speakers based on this test. More over testing the receiver with a 6-8 ohm speaker will only conclude that it can drive those speakers. This does not in any way disprove a fault in the Ohm B+ nor does it give grounds to conclude the receiver isn't capable of handling a 4 ohm load just because it works fine with 8 ohm speakers that have no fault.

Take a look at what we know. The speakers are old, which means the parts that make up the crossover are also old, and capacitors are probably in need of replacement.

I'm sorry if I seem hard headed, but I simply don't see the logic in concluding the receiver is the problem, especially without hard evidence to support that. If those crappy white van specials went further than the Ohm B+s then that evidence points towards the speaker being the problem more so than the receiver.