Marantz AV10 + NAD Masters M66

[PENG]

hi all! so i have a 5.2 setup:

Marantz AV10
McIntosh MC303 (connected to center and rears)
McIntosh MC462 (connected to L+R)
Sonus Faber Amati G5 (L+R)
Sonus Faber Vox G3 Center
Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 1 (Rears)

right now i am using a bluesound node as my streamer connected via coax digital to my av10 so the av10 is the DAC.

debating about buying an "upgrade" external DAC like the NAD master 66 to use when i am listening to two channel.

Two questions:

1. what external DAC would actually be an upgrade over the AV10? would the NAD m66 actually be an upgrade over the bluesound+av10?

The DAC in the AV10 seems to have been implemented very well, based on bench measurement results, but there are better DAC ICs that many external DACs used, including the NAD one you mentioned.

Better ICs are naturally better than the lesser ones, but the fact is, the specs of the DAC ICs in the AV10 are still SOTA, for example, distortion + noise is so low that it is just not possible for humans to hear, so a few dB better offer by the flagship ESS IC, while good to have, should have no audibly better effects. Those who believe in their ears/brains will tell you otherwise, but if you use common logic, you will know that's just like saying a $20,000 McIntosh power amp will sound better than a $10,000 amp.

So, external DAC could actually be an upgrade over the AV10, if it offers features you need that is not available if using only the AV10, and may also be an upgrade in terms of specs and measurements but that will almost 100% certain not in terms of audibly better performance. Note: subjective claims don't, and shouldn't count.

2. if i use the m66 for instance, how would the connections actually work?

i assume: balanced output L+R from Marantz into the balanced inputs of the NAD. Balanced outputs from the NAD to my MC462. when i am listening to two channel, the marantz isn't involved at all, that seems simple enough.

It would work that way, but I don't see any point, because the signal coming out of the output of the AV10 has already been through with it's own signal path so the NAD will only add distortions and noise.

What input would you be connecting to the AV10? Regardless, as mentioned, the signal will still be going through the AV10's preamp/dac signal path so the overall quality will already be determined by the AV10, putting it through the NAD serve no purpose in terms of "sound quality".

but when im watching tv/movies, how do i bypass the nad dac so the av10 is doing all the processing? maybe i am thinking about it incorrectly....

The Master 66 is a streamer/DAC designed to work as a standalone device and I don't way how and why you would use it with the AV10, except as a DAC only. In that case, you would just connect the NAD's analog outputs to the AV10's analog inputs. Then, to bypass the AV10's own ADC/DAC, you would use direct of pure direct mode. The signal will still go through the AV10's preamp circuitry but will at least bypass it's ADC that Marantz did not say much about, and the DAC, that we do know is the ES9018K2M, a reference class but not the top/flagship class ESS IC such as the one used in the NAD Master 66.

and any marantz pros advise on how i should set this up on the software side?

What kind of "software" you are referring to?

thank you for any advice! I'm also open to any other dac/streamer recommendations...

Like others, I only have opinions, but since you asked, I would say that while I like NAD's devices based on specs and measurements, I would not consider any of them that involved the hype of the Blue sound, MQA kind of things that for some reasons, NAD seemed to indulge on. I would keep things simple, ignore those kind of hype, gadget, and stick with the KISS principle. That way, we can debate and wonder if better specs and measurements would always result in audibly better performance that the answer is likely "NO", but keeping things pure and simple would at least almost guarantee you won't introduce unnecessarily higher distortions, noise and other negatives in the audio signal path.

So if you just believe a better DAC IC may result in audibly better performance, then just go with one of those top performers based on measurements and either use one that has volume control with your McIntosh amp directly, or use it with one of those best measured preamp and then to the McIntosh.

That means, imo, put together a separate two channel system for use with the MC462 for music listening.

Below is an example of how you can be guided by measurements, the chart reflects only one metric, ie SINAD, typically speaking, if the DAC scores top SINAD, it will do well, such as near the top as well, in other metrics but you should look at the individual review that will have much more details in how the device measured on the bench.

For top DACs:

Note that while no NAD DACs have been measured there managed to get into the top 20, they are still going to be excellent in terms of transparency, to humans.

Example of one of those detailed reviews:

Topping D50 III Balanced DAC with EQ Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
NAD M33 Streaming Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

For top rated preamp:

Topping LA90 Review (Integrated Amplifier) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Lastly, on this forum, I may be one of those few external DAC users/believers, but you may find more enthusiastic responses from ASR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah you're getting great performance because the digital signal is going straight to the AV10 which measures 108 dB SINAD as confirmed here by Gene on his bench.

That’s exactly what I said to a friend who tried to convince me that $3-6K dedicated streamers somehow improve the sound quality even though it’s only bitstreaming the pure digital signal to his AV10 that has a SINAD of 108dB.

His response - measurements don’t tell you everything - the streamer will somehow improve the sound quality on its own.

 

[lovinthehd]

That’s exactly what I said to a friend who tried to convince me that $3-6K dedicated streamers somehow improve the sound quality even though it’s only bitstreaming the pure digital signal to his AV10 that has a SINAD of 108dB.

His response - measurements don’t tell you everything - the streamer will somehow improve the sound quality on its own.

Especially depends on the wires and lifters and power "chords" etc Then there's simply spending more, that always is a plus, right?

 

[TankTop5]

Especially depends on the wires and lifters and power "chords" etc Then there's simply spending more, that always is a plus, right?

if he’s that convinced he may as well go all the way otherwise it’ll sound terrible

 

[PENG]

That’s exactly what I said to a friend who tried to convince me that $3-6K dedicated streamers somehow improve the sound quality even though it’s only bitstreaming the pure digital signal to his AV10 that has a SINAD of 108dB.

His response - measurements don’t tell you everything - the streamer will somehow improve the sound quality on its own.

It is a typical case of people not understanding the basic logic, meaning:

Logic Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster:

a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

That's why there is no point to debate, or try convincing them as either they knowingly say those things to help sell their merchandise, or they just can't/won't think logically.