Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[TLS Guy]

Honestly I really believe it boils down to the better Dac, and the better upmixer

I noticed this same improvement when I went with the Yamaha CX-A5200 to the Monoprice Monolith HTP-1

The A5200 is a FANTASTIC processor but the HTP-1 sounded better a lot better.

I really suspect it comes down to the upmixer in my case and some of the more advanced bass management features the newer Htp-1 has over the older CX-A5200

Regardless congratulations on your purchase! I hope the AV-10 provides you enjoyment for many years to come!!!

I think you are correct. What is really nice is to have the equipment on and the room is absolutely quiet. All those Quad amps don't make a sound, and nor does that AV 10 with no signal. I think SNR is a much more important spec. than people realize. It is also an indication of overall quality and attention to detail. The last 2 pre pros have all had just audible noise at the MLP in a quiet room and were worse then my previous AVPs in that regard.

As far as I'm concerned overall quality of the mid range gear has gone down to maintain price points. So the junk factor has been rising in proportion to channels added I suspect. This is too bad. It really makes the case for good 2.1 or 3.1 gear which is virtually absent from the market. For some reason the price tag on a lot of 2 channel gear is crazy.

 

[Alex2507]

Lastly do 'not cry' too much for me, the dealer was very good to me, and this episode will not send me to the poor house.

I'm not crying for you.
I'm crying for me.
From the poor house.

Psychiatry was not my specialty, so I will leave it at that.

Being a little kooky, I can tell you it's envy.
Replacing jealousy with joy is easier said than done hence the Ignore List.

 

[Danzilla31]

Yes

I think you are correct. What is really nice is to have the equipment on and the room is absolutely quiet. All those Quad amps don't make a sound, and nor does that AV 10 with no signal. I think SNR is a much more important spec. than people realize. It is also an indication of overall quality and attention to detail. The last 2 pre pros have all had just audible noise at the MLP in a quiet room and were worse then my previous AVPs in that regard.

As far as I'm concerned overall quality of the mid range gear has gone down to maintain price points. So the junk factor has been rising in proportion to channels added I suspect. This is too bad. It really makes the case for good 2.1 or 3.1 gear which is virtually absent from the market. For some reason the price tag on a lot of 2 channel gear is crazy.

I think your right about the SNR and it's importance as well. I left that one out but @PENG covered it really well in his reply

 

[PENG]

I love Denon/Marantz user manuals—no one else comes close to their thoroughness. Certainly not Anthem.

Anthem doesn't need manuals, they have an army of loyal fans on AVSF, many are very willing to help and ready to defend..

 

[Golfx]

Anthem doesn't need manuals, they have an army of loyal fans on AVSF, many are very willing to help and ready to defend..

Defend is right! I just like knowing all the steps and methods ahead of time.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not crying for you.
I'm crying for me.
From the poor house.



Being a little kooky, I can tell you it's envy.
Replacing jealousy with joy is easier said than done hence the Ignore List.

I think you are right about that. May be you can have another career!

 

[jinjuku]

I'm not crying for you.
I'm crying for me.
From the poor house.



Being a little kooky, I can tell you it's envy.
Replacing jealousy with joy is easier said than done hence the Ignore List.

Be careful now or someone's going to come here and ask you to check your privilege.

 

[TLS Guy]

Be careful now or someone's going to come here and ask you to check your privilege.

It is nice to see we can come together and have a laugh about it. But I have to tell you I was plenty pissed off at how this went off the rails for a while. I was just trying to give an honest assessment of the AV 10. When you first get a look at it the care, craftsmanship just looking at it is a joy to behold. From what I have noted so far, looks and performance seem to be in synch.

I am genuinely sorry you had to intervene in this thread.

 

[Danzilla31]

It is nice to see we can come together and have a laugh about it. But I have to tell you I was plenty pissed off at how this went off the rails for a while. I was just trying to give an honest assessment of the AV 10. When you first get a look at it the care, craftsmanship just looking at it is a joy to behold. From what I have noted so far, looks and performance seem to be in synch.

I am genuinely sorry you had to intervene in this thread.

That is a HUGE compliment to the AV10 coming from you with your background in this hobby. I'm going to have to look at this as an eventual replacement to my HTP-1 if it ever bites the dust very very seriously with praise like that coming from you.

I'm also looking forward to @ryanosaur feedback on his new purchase of the AV20 as well!

 

[jinjuku]

It is nice to see we can come together and have a laugh about it. But I have to tell you I was plenty pissed off at how this went off the rails for a while. I was just trying to give an honest assessment of the AV 10. When you first get a look at it the care, craftsmanship just looking at it is a joy to behold. From what I have noted so far, looks and performance seem to be in synch.

I am genuinely sorry you had to intervene in this thread.

No worries.

 

[Trebdp83]

I don't think so. I am not sure it is much different to the previous arrangement. Previously you set speakers to large individually as now. Then when you set the crossover you had the option to just set whether you wanted some of the bass LFE sent to each individual speaker by checking LFE + main. Now if you check LFE + main once, then every speaker set to large also gets a portion of the LFE as well as the subs.

So far this has worked out for me as the center has two drivers that can handle that, the side surrounds have two Dynaudio units that have 2.5" voice coils and are very capable drivers, and the rears have two KEF B139s in each, and they can best a lot of sub drivers. In the TL lines they reproduce effectively down to 20 Hz. So, thinking about it, I think that has contributed to the uniform low bass in the room without mucking about with Eq.

It seems there is still confusion concerning the LFE+Main feature. The LFE+Main feature was never, and still is not, a two way street and while lower frequencies from speakers set to Large are copied to the SUB Pre Out, LFE is not sent to Large speakers. LFE in older units was sent to speakers set to Large only when a sub was NOT present and the Subwoofer presence setting was set to None.

To send LFE to speakers other than a subwoofer connected to the Sub Pre Out, one must use the new LFE Distribution LPF setting in some new Denon/Marantz units when the Subwoofer setting is set to Use and not set to None and other speakers are set to Large. This is the feature @gene pushed to get on Denon/Marantz models.

For those using the LFE+Main feature on the new AV 10 and AV 20 models, there are no less than three places to make the setting as the IMAX and 2CH Playback settings also have their own LFE+Main settings. The Bass Extraction LPF setting can be found under the Main Speaker settings and also in the 2CH Playback settings which allows for adjustment of the level at which low frequencies are copied to the Subwoofer when Fronts are set to Large and the LFE+Main setting is used.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It seems there is still confusion concerning the LFE+Main feature. The LFE+Main feature was never, and still is not, a two way street and while lower frequencies from speakers set to Large are copied to the SUB Pre Out, LFE is not sent to Large speakers. LFE in older units was sent to speakers set to Large only when a sub was NOT present and the Subwoofer presence setting was set to None.

To send LFE to speakers other than a subwoofer connected to the Sub Pre Out, one must use the new LFE Distribution LPF setting in some new Denon/Marantz units when the Subwoofer setting is set to Use and not set to None and other speakers are set to Large. This is the feature @gene pushed to get on Denon/Marantz models.

For those using the LFE+Main feature on the new AV 10 and AV 20 models, there are no less than three places to make the setting as the IMAX and 2CH Playback settings also have their own LFE+Main settings. The Bass Extraction LPF setting can be found under the Main Speaker settings and also in the 2CH Playback settings which allows for adjustment of the level at which low frequencies are copied to the Subwoofer when Fronts are set to Large and the LFE+Main setting is used.

This is just mental…

 

[Trebdp83]

This is just mental…

I've been called worse.

 

[dlaloum]

Honestly I really believe it boils down to the better Dac, and the better upmixer

I noticed this same improvement when I went with the Yamaha CX-A5200 to the Monoprice Monolith HTP-1

The A5200 is a FANTASTIC processor but the HTP-1 sounded better a lot better.

I really suspect it comes down to the upmixer in my case and some of the more advanced bass management features the newer Htp-1 has over the older CX-A5200

Regardless congratulations on your purchase! I hope the AV-10 provides you enjoyment for many years to come!!!

My suspicion (without any objective support) is that it is in the upmixer...

And if that is the case, then the benefits should extend through to lower end models that use the same software base...

If such dramatic improvements are possible then we may have to start paying close attention to AVR/AVP Firmware versions, and which versions of the DTS / Dolby upmixers are included in that firmware.

 

[TLS Guy]

My suspicion (without any objective support) is that it is in the upmixer...

And if that is the case, then the benefits should extend through to lower end models that use the same software base...

If such dramatic improvements are possible then we may have to start paying close attention to AVR/AVP Firmware versions, and which versions of the DTS / Dolby upmixers are included in that firmware.

I have that feeling also. The upmixer is vastly improved.

That other issue that is a surprise, is a huge improvement in Atmos decoding. Dolby labs require all Atmos stream at EBU normalization, which is -18 LUFS. That means that normally the volume is 6 to 10 db lower than other streams. Now the AV 10 undoes that normalization and so the volume setting is comparable to all other streams. So when on the BPO site you had to make sure that when switching from an Atmos stream to a 2 channel stream, you had to make sure you turned the volume down, otherwise you get blown out of your chair.

But more than that the Atmos streams are vastly improved, and I mean vastly on the AV 10. The spacial imaging is remarkably improved with pin point placing of players and a huge depth to the sound stage. On the AV 7705 and 7706 the ambience of the hall was only slightly better than up mixed. Now with the AV 10 I really hear the ring of the hall for the first time. Before the applause from behind was barely perceptible, but now it is all around you and feel right in the audience. This is living up to the immersive claim it says on the "tin".
So the improvement in Atmos performance is colossal. I am more and more impressed with this unit day by day. This unit overall has resulted in a huge increase in realism and listening pleasure. As I said, the most dramatic change is a vast improvement in Atmos material.
So it seems the cost of entry has greatly increased, at least for enjoying Atmos programs.

 

[PENG]

I have that feeling also. The upmixer is vastly improved.

That other issue that is a surprise, is a huge improvement in Atmos decoding. Dolby labs require all Atmos stream at EBU normalization, which is -18 LUFS. That means that normally the volume is 6 to 10 db lower than other streams. Now the AV 10 undoes that normalization and so the volume setting is comparable to all other streams. So when on the BPO site you had to make sure that when switching from an Atmos stream to a 2 channel stream, you had to make sure you turned the volume down, otherwise you get blown out of your chair.

But more than that the Atmos streams are vastly improved, and I mean vastly on the AV 10. The spacial imaging is remarkably improved with pin point placing of players and a huge depth to the sound stage. On the AV 7705 and 7706 the ambience of the hall was only slightly better than up mixed. Now with the AV 10 I really hear the ring of the hall for the first time. Before the applause from behind was barely perceptible, but now it is all around you and feel right in the audience. This is living up to the immersive claim it says on the "tin".
So the improvement in Atmos performance is colossal. I am more and more impressed with this unit day by day. This unit overall has resulted in a huge increase in realism and listening pleasure. As I said, the most dramatic change is a vast improvement in Atmos material.

The DSP IC in the AV10 is a much improved one even as they went from having 2 of the previous IC to now just 1. The main reason they upgraded to this IC seems obvious, they expected the new series, AV10, 20, and the Cinema 50 through 30 Marantz AVRs, and the corresponding Denon AVRs to do not only Audyssey, but also Dirac Live Bass Control and the latest ART (active room treatment). They also have to allow for users who would in fact use the maximum number of channels, and that would be a whopping 19 on channel count. That would surely use a lot more processing power such as MIPs than the 11 to 15 channel (including the subs) processors that are common just a few years ago.

Since you wouldn't be using room correction, the DSP in your unit would be in the overkill territory and should run a little cooler than others who use it to it's fullest.

So it seems the cost of entry has greatly increased, at least for enjoying Atmos programs.

Not really in this aspect, the D+M AVRs starting from the AVR-X3800H through Cinema 30 at $4,800 list price ( use the same DSP IC, so it's a matter of software to make them as good in Atoms, Auro 3D, and upmixing that @dlaloum alluded to.

So, the lowest entry cost could be found at under $1,000 when the X3800H is on sale at some outlets, or the Cinema 50 in Europe in the EU countries and the far East.

Of course for those like you, who won't ever use AVRs, cost of entry is indeed much higher, at $8,000, though the upcoming AV30 will close that gap for sure.

For some "purist", perhaps including those who believe in their golden ears and would like to consider consolidating their 2 channel setups to just one, the AV10, or the AV20, along with the Anthem AVM90 would still be the go to option, as they are among the very few AVP/AVCs that has ESS's reference class DAC IC that others such as Monolith, Emotiva, and Yamaha (might change if they ever come up with the anticipated CX-A5300) don't seem to bother.

 

[TLS Guy]

The DSP IC in the AV10 is a much improved one even as they went from having 2 of the previous IC to now just 1. The main reason they upgraded to this IC seems obvious, they expected the new series, AV10, 20, and the Cinema 50 through 30 Marantz AVRs, and the corresponding Denon AVRs to do not only Audyssey, but also Dirac Live Bass Control and the latest ART (active room treatment). They also have to allow for users who would in fact use the maximum number of channels, and that would be a whopping 19 on channel count. That would surely use a lot more processing power such as MIPs than the 11 to 15 channel (including the subs) processors that are common just a few years ago.

Since you wouldn't be using room correction, the DSP in your unit would be in the overkill territory and should run a little cooler than others who use it to it's fullest.



Not really in this aspect, the D+M AVRs starting from the AVR-X3800H through Cinema 30 at $4,800 list price ( use the same DSP IC, so it's a matter of software to make them as good in Atoms, Auro 3D, and upmixing that @dlaloum alluded to.

So, the lowest entry cost could be found at under $1,000 when the X3800H is on sale at some outlets, or the Cinema 50 in Europe in the EU countries and the far East.

Of course for those like you, who won't ever use AVRs, cost of entry is indeed much higher, at $8,000, though the upcoming AV30 will close that gap for sure.

For some "purist", perhaps including those who believe in their golden ears and would like to consider consolidating their 2 channel setups to just one, the AV10, or the AV20, along with the Anthem AVM90 would still be the go to option, as they are among the very few AVP/AVCs that has ESS's reference class DAC IC that others such as Monolith, Emotiva, and Yamaha (might change if they ever come up with the anticipated CX-A5300) don't seem to bother.

Thanks for that. So, the cost of doing all this properly if you really want Atmos to be worth is, is now high.

My bottom line is that Atmos with the 7705, and 7706 was barely worth it, as it only made a marginal improvement. It would not be worth it for those that don't have the speakers or can't build at lower cost. On the other hand the effect of Atmos on this AV10, is dramatic, impressive and worth the trouble and expense. With all the circuitry I see in my unit, there is not really room for amps, at least not any that would be decent. And then you have the heat factor. I felt it a good idea to add cooling fans even in a very open rack.

So my take from this debacle, is that to do Atmos properly and the "justice" it deserves is costly. In other words getting results that I think people are looking for, and I certainly was, is going to require a mega cash outlay and careful design of not only the equipment but the room. So we are now right up against the buffers of practicality.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for that. So, the cost of doing all this properly if you really want Atmos to be worth is, is now high.

My bottom line is that Atmos with the 7705, and 7706 was barely worth it, as it only made a marginal improvement. It would not be worth it for those that don't have the speakers or can't build at lower cost. On the other hand the effect of Atmos on this AV10, is dramatic, impressive and worth the trouble and expense. With all the circuitry I see in my unit, there is not really room for amps, at least not any that would be decent. And then you have the heat factor. I felt it a good idea to add cooling fans even in a very open rack.

So my take from this debacle, is that to do Atmos properly and the "justice" it deserves is costly. In other words getting results that I think people are looking for, and I certainly was, is going to require a mega cash outlay and careful design of not only the equipment but the room. So we are now right up against the buffers of practicality.

I think so too, the previous gen. DSP simply doesn't have enough processing power for the resolution that Atmos/DTS:X Pro (you now have that option iirc), Auro3D required for the best performance.

I might consider selling my Anthem (that does well enough for Atmos) and go for the AV30, when it becomes available, and my reason, a little different than yours, will be DLBC, not interested in ART though. I would consider going back to Marantz only because I am not too happy with Anthem ARC Genesis so far. I might be willing to pay more for the AV20 instead of the AV30 just for the better dac, if the price is right. The Anthem actually has a equal or slightly better DAC IC than the Marantz's, so the main reason for me is really for the better (at least on paper, based on REW measurements) room correction.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

not interested in ART though because I am not too happy with Anthem ARC Genesis so far.

Well, you never know until you try.

Try it first, then decide.

Dirac ART might be much better than ARC Genesis.

 

[Golfx]

I think so too, the previous gen. DSP simply doesn't have enough processing power for the resolution that Atmos/DTS:X Pro (you now have that option iirc), Auro3D required for the best performance.

I might consider selling my Anthem (that does well enough for Atmos) and go for the AV30, when it becomes available, and my reason, a little different than yours, will be DLBC, not interested in ART though because I am not too happy with Anthem ARC Genesis so far. I might be willing to pay more for the AV20 just for the better dac, if the price is right. The Anthem actually has a equal or slightly better DAC IC than the Marantz's, so the main reason for me is really for the better (at least on paper, based on REW measurements) room correction.

You are in agreement with Mathew Poes who rated ARC one of the lowest for bass management.