Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[TLS Guy]

I started the installation Saturday afternoon, three and a half days ago.

This was in many ways a formidable undertaking to mount this unit in a 19" rack. This unit is not specifically designed for 19" rack mounting. However third parties have rack mounts available.

This is all complicated by the fact this unit weights 37lb. I bought a rack from B & H. Their rack was not the cheapest, but looked the most substantial. Rack and AV 10 weigh in at 50lb. The rack has front ear lobes, but that is far too heavy to mount in a rack with just front mounting bolts in my opinion. The AV 10 drops into the rack mount from the top and the you screw on the top of the mount. The unit is think grade heavy steel with a superb paint job.

Now normally units of this weight go the full length between front and back mounting holes. This rack is a few inches short. So I put rails between the front and back girders. I used right angle aluminum angle pieces and placed a 3/4" particle board between.

This unit just oozes quality. The back panel is impressive with all inputs secured to the chassis and not just the circuit boards, where there are asking to give trouble from repeated use.

This unit has a continuous power consumption of 100 watts. Despite the rack being really open, the chassis got to 115 degrees by my laser thermometer when the chase air temp was 78F. Since I had the fans from the debacle with the 7706 I placed them on top and they keep the chassis the same as ambient temperature on the low and very silent setting.

These turn on, when the three Quad 909 two channel power amps for the front three speakers are turned on.

Further images of the unit. I had to order and install to 2 RU spacer panels above and below. I ordered these from Amazon and say made in China. Unfortunately this reinforced my severe antipathy to Chinese manufacture. Neither had the four mounting holes in both panels to specification with totally unacceptable variance. So I had to spend time with my 'rat tailed' file to elongate the holes to mount the unit.

Since I have a number of domestic units that do not conform to the professional height and width dimensions, I had to fabricate a couple of 1/2" aluminum spacers. I had to paint them black and wait 48 hours for the paint to fully cure before mounting.

Some further pictures.

One thing I don't care for is this glow in the dark lighting, to show off the superb finish of the unit.

I personally think that tends towards the vulgar.

Now lets get down to the issue of is it any good?

First I should state that I bought this unit for hoped for reliability, and not because I expected it to improve the sound of the room. I bought it because the 7705 gave trouble after five years use, and I only got three month's service from the 7706.

My dealer was extremely kind to me and facilitated purchase of this unit at a very, very significant discount, for which I am very grateful and appreciate. I am taking him out to lunch tomorrow.

So, I honestly had zero expectation that SQ would improve. However no matter how hard a tried to convince myself it was the SQ, was not significantly better, it was and there was no doubt about it.

The FR does not give the clue to this.

The first thing to note, is that the SNR is on a par or better than my beloved Quad power amps.

This whole rig is now absolutely quiet. You have no idea whether the rig in on or off. It is dead silent.

However the unit definitely had better detail and ambience.

I went though the calibration both Audyssey and mine. I have not and won't be turning on Audyssey EQ.

The Audyssey gain settings of all channels was virtually identical to the 7706, except that the power to all speakers except the front had been increased 2 to 2.5db. As is the case with Audyssey the sub channels are set woefully low. Bass management is different to previous AV unit, but after going through it I think it makes sense. So I set bass levels by ear and the did my measurements with Omni Mic. I found I had not lost my touch and that the FR curves where spot on. I think the slight increase in the surrounds outputs was significant. Now on the BPO Atmos concerts your can hear applause all round you as if in the audience, which is as it should be.

All speakers except the four ceiling speakers are set to large as previously. They are all very competent speakers and easily up to the task. I think this contributes to the very even response in the room and the very good room curves.

Now the sound was significantly cleaner and precise. The ambient field more realistic. Part of this I think is the superb SNR, as even trivial noise spoils the illusion.
This has been known for years.

However the sound is significantly more spacious with increased depth and the ambient field very realistic.

Now even though the distortion is significantly lower than the previous unit, I doubt that is the reason for this improvement. I think the answer is in the improved DAC. It is well known that better DACs handle lower level signals better. This is the opposite of analog circuits that get into trouble with high level signals. Digital signals also do but just hit a brick wall and distortion goes through the roof along with nasty pops often. It is not pretty when that happens. So I think the improved SQ is coming from the ambient tail as the sounds fades. I think this is the reason for the improved sound and the increase in the depth of field.
There is no doubt this unit has improved the performance of the system and not in a trivial way, which is a very pleasant surprise to me, which was not the reason for this new build out.

The room FRs and speaker FRs are not significantly different from previously, and are excellent. The bass performance is a little smoother, but that could just be that the mic is in a slightly different place. The rig is not in need of any Eq from Audyssey and I will not be shelling out for DIRAC.

So far I am thrilled with this unit that is delivering totally unexpected improved SQ. It is so good now that with the BPO Atmos you can believe you are actually there.

Lastly picture quality from the AV10 is significantly improved. I think this is because the HDMI eARC output has enough power to reliably power the Hybrid cable and they tell you not to use a voltage inserter. So I have removed my voltage inserter.

One other bonus. The designers have somehow solved the issue of the low level of streamed Atmos content. Dolby insists on normalization of Dolby Atmos streams to EBU specs which is -18 LUFS. However on this unit Atmos steams play back at levels comparable to stereo streams.

So tomorrow my 7706 will be shipped for warranty repair. Not sure what I will do with it, but likely put it in the family room system and see how it holds up.

 

[ryanosaur]

Very cool, Doc.

I've been warming up my AV20 little by little. Eager to let it stretch its legs tomorrow or the next evening with a movie or some Multichannel Music. (I still haven't opened the new SACD of Pink Floyds Animals.)

Let me know if you find a switch for the side lights!

They are beautiful units, though. Even though mine is a lighter weight chassis, it still has some heft.

May the technology gods smile upon us and our new Marantz AVPs.

 

[PENG]

The first thing to note, is that the SNR is on a par or better than my beloved Quad power amps.

This whole rig is now absolutely quiet. You have no idea whether the rig in on or off. It is dead silent.

However the unit definitely had better detail and ambience.

Totally expected, given that the likes of the AV7705/7706 (like my AV8801) all have mediocre SNR/DR, you are getting an increase of not less than 30 dB of SINAD (that includes lots of noise), while the 75 dB of those older Marantz are fine if your room ambient noise is in the typically 25-35 dB range, it would bound to make some audible difference if your room is quieter. As to the other SQ improvements, I would say that's mostly due to the much better DSP, in both hardware (the IC) and software (much more up to date that the 770X series). I felt such improvements even when I upgraded/or downgraded, actually, from the AV8801 to the lowly Denon AVR-X4400H.

Congratulations!

 

[TLS Guy]

Totally expected, given that the likes of the AV7705/7706 (like my AV8801) all have mediocre SNR/DR, you are getting an increase of not less than 30 dB of SINAD (that includes lots of noise), while the 75 dB of those older Marantz are fine if your room ambient noise is in the typically 25-35 dB range, it would bound to make some audible difference if your room is quieter. As to the other SQ improvements, I would say that's mostly due to the much better DSP, in both hardware (the IC) and software (much more up to date that the 770X series). I felt such improvements even when I upgraded/or downgraded, actually, from the AV8801 to the lowly Denon AVR-X4400H.

Congratulations!

Well Peng, that seems to be the case. My room is very quiet, as the house is ICF and the walls 6" reinforced concrete poured into insulated forms.

What I have found out confirms what you say. I had to really convince myself that what I was hearing was real, and afraid it was what we call in medicine a "Green Poultice"! But I had to admit there was actually easily discernible improvement.

The downside of this, is the cost of entry to all of this. Given the complexity of these systems now, I can see how the cost mounts to produce units of this caliber. So it really highlights the importance of making affordable two channel gear of the same quality.

In the end a good two channel system bests a poorer 11 or 13 channel system.

There are very few really good players in this arena now, and one is Marantz and the other Anthem. The future of Marantz is still uncertain due to determinations to be made by the monopolies commission regarding the Harmon/Samsung purchase of Sound United.

I think it is very uncertain how this drive to multichannel audio will play out.

Another way of looking at this is that a fairly respectable specification in a two channel system, may not be acceptable when you multiply that 6 fold or more in a multichannel rig. Just the numbers downgrade your total SNR. So potentially this increases your cost per channel over what would otherwise be required in good two channel equipment.

So, I hope with the advent of Atmos especially, things have reached the buffers.

If I was not a DIY builder I could not have possibly have afforded the system I have. Unfortunately people seem to have less practical skills than was prevalent in my youth. In audio back then in the UK, DIY ruled and was the rule rather than the exception.

I can tell, with the cost of service people for just about anything these days, a well equipped workshop and tool chest pay for themselves again and again, and not just in audio.

 

[PENG]

Well Peng, that seems to be the case. My room is very quiet, as the house is ICF and the walls 6" reinforced concrete poured into insulated forms.

What I have found out confirms what you say. I had to really convince myself that what I was hearing was real, and afraid it was what we call in medicine a "Green Poultice"! But I had to admit there was actually easily discernible improvement.

The downside of this, is the cost of entry to all of this. Given the complexity of these systems now, I can see how the cost mounts to produce units of this caliber. So it really highlights the importance of making affordable two channel gear of the same quality.

In the end a good two channel system bests a poorer 11 or 13 channel system.

There are very few really good players in this arena now, and one is Marantz and the other Anthem. The future of Marantz is still uncertain due to determinations to be made by the monopolies commission regarding the Harmon/Samsung purchase of Sound United.

I think it is very uncertain how this drive to multichannel audio will play out.

Another way of looking at this is that a fairly respectable specification in a two channel system, may not be acceptable when you multiply that 6 fold or more in a multichannel rig. Just the numbers downgrade your total SNR. So potentially this increases your cost per channel over what would otherwise be required in good two channel equipment.

So, I hope with the advent of Atmos especially, things have reached the buffers.

If I was not a DIY builder I could not have possibly have afforded the system I have. Unfortunately people seem to have less practical skills than was prevalent in my youth. In audio back then in the UK, DIY ruled and was the rule rather than the exception.

I can tell, with the cost of service people for just about anything these days, a well equipped workshop and tool chest pay for themselves again and again, and not just in audio.

I think after this upgrade, you have clearly and truly passed the so called point of diminishing return such that even if you had gone with Trinnov's or Storm audios class of AVP that are much more costly, you won't hear anything better, unless you changed you mind and believe Dirac Live ART and Trinnov's RC systems will take things to a different level.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have not and won't be turning on Audyssey EQ.

The Audyssey gain settings of all channels was virtually identical to the 7706, except that the power to all speakers except the front had been increased 2 to 2.5db. As is the case with Audyssey the sub channels are set woefully low. Bass management is different to previous AV unit, but after going through it I think it makes sense. So I set bass levels by ear and the did my measurements with Omni Mic. I found I had not lost my touch and that the FR curves where spot on. I think the slight increase in the surrounds outputs was significant. Now on the BPO Atmos concerts your can hear applause all round you as if in the audience, which is as it should be.

Now the sound was significantly cleaner and precise. The ambient field more realistic.

However the sound is significantly more spacious with increased depth and the ambient field very realistic.

There is no doubt this unit has improved the performance of the system and not in a trivial way, which is a very pleasant surprise to me, which was not the reason for this new build out.

The room FRs and speaker FRs are not significantly different from previously, and are excellent. The bass performance is a little smoother, but that could just be that the mic is in a slightly different place. The rig is not in need of any Eq from Audyssey and I will not be shelling out for DIRAC.

I would still go with whichever sounds better, but just for kicks, did you compare the FR graphs of Audyssey of the AV10 vs NO-AUDYSSEY?

 

[Trell]

I think after this upgrade, you have clearly and truly passed the so called point of diminishing return such that even if you had gone with Trinnov's or Storm audios class of AVP that are much more costly, you won't hear anything better, unless you changed you mind and believe Dirac Live ART and Trinnov's RC systems will take things to a different level.

And most of us, certainly me, neither have the means nor the knowledge to design and build a house like his, including all the speakers and so forth.

My small living room is what it is with it's limited practical placements of speakers and subwoofers, so yeah, I use things like room EQ and room treatments to improve as much as I can. Our home office have Genelec monitors and subwoofers, and using their room EQ solution as well (of course).

So: If I had a lot of money and knowledge like @TLS Guy (more than my anyway) I for sure would seriously consider to implement similar.

 

[Trebdp83]

Very nice. I think that is as good as it gets for your purposes. Try not to break this one.

I would be interested to know if you have used the LFE Distribution feature at all since your speakers are Large.

Oh, you can turn OFF the illumination feature if you find it offensive.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...unless you changed you mind and believe Dirac Live ART and Trinnov's RC systems will take things to a different level.

Only in heaven. Just not here on earth.

 

[Trell]

Only in heaven. Just not here on earth.

There are many earths! The picture below celebrates (in the series) "Liberation Day" when USA capitulated to Nazi Germany.

 

[gene]

Very nice. I think that is as good as it gets for your purposes. Try not to break this one.

I would be interested to know if you have used the LFE Distribution feature at all since your speakers are Large.
View attachment 73683

Oh, you can turn OFF the illumination feature if you find it offensive.
View attachment 73682
View attachment 73681

I got that feature added to all new Marantz and Denon 4sub enabled products

 

[Trebdp83]

I got that feature added to all new Marantz and Denon 4sub enabled products

Yup, and those using speakers set to Large wanting some LFE sent to them owe you one. I don't think those using older models realize that when assigning a sub for use, no LFE was being sent to any Large speakers and only the low frequencies actually in those channels were being sent to a sub when speakers were set to Large and the sub was set to LFE+Main. That setting does nothing for getting LFE to Large speakers and the new LFE Distribution feature is needed to do so.

 

[highfigh]

I started the installation Saturday afternoon, three and a half days ago.

This was in many ways a formidable undertaking to mount this unit in a 19" rack. This unit is not specifically designed for 19" rack mounting. However third parties have rack mounts available.

This is all complicated by the fact this unit weights 37lb. I bought a rack from B & H. Their rack was not the cheapest, but looked the most substantial. Rack and AV 10 weigh in at 50lb. The rack has front ear lobes, but that is far too heavy to mount in a rack with just front mounting bolts in my opinion. The AV 10 drops into the rack mount from the top and the you screw on the top of the mount. The unit is think grade heavy steel with a superb paint job.

Now normally units of this weight go the full length between front and back mounting holes. This rack is a few inches short. So I put rails between the front and back girders. I used right angle aluminum angle pieces and placed a 3/4" particle board between.

This unit just oozes quality. The back panel is impressive with all inputs secured to the chassis and not just the circuit boards, where there are asking to give trouble from repeated use.

This unit has a continuous power consumption of 100 watts. Despite the rack being really open, the chassis got to 115 degrees by my laser thermometer when the chase air temp was 78F. Since I had the fans from the debacle with the 7706 I placed them on top and they keep the chassis the same as ambient temperature on the low and very silent setting.

These turn on, when the three Quad 909 two channel power amps for the front three speakers are turned on.

Further images of the unit. I had to order and install to 2 RU spacer panels above and below. I ordered these from Amazon and say made in China. Unfortunately this reinforced my severe antipathy to Chinese manufacture. Neither had the four mounting holes in both panels to specification with totally unacceptable variance. So I had to spend time with my 'rat tailed' file to elongate the holes to mount the unit.

Since I have a number of domestic units that do not conform to the professional height and width dimensions, I had to fabricate a couple of 1/2" aluminum spacers. I had to paint them black and wait 48 hours for the paint to fully cure before mounting.

Some further pictures.

One thing I don't care for is this glow in the dark lighting, to show off the superb finish of the unit.

I personally think that tends towards the vulgar.

Now lets get down to the issue of is it any good?

First I should state that I bought this unit for hoped for reliability, and not because I expected it to improve the sound of the room. I bought it because the 7705 gave trouble after five years use, and I only got three month's service from the 7706.

My dealer was extremely kind to me and facilitated purchase of this unit at a very, very significant discount, for which I am very grateful and appreciate. I am taking him out to lunch tomorrow.

So, I honestly had zero expectation that SQ would improve. However no matter how hard a tried to convince myself it was the SQ, was not significantly better, it was and there was no doubt about it.

The FR does not give the clue to this.

The first thing to note, is that the SNR is on a par or better than my beloved Quad power amps.

This whole rig is now absolutely quiet. You have no idea whether the rig in on or off. It is dead silent.

However the unit definitely had better detail and ambience.

I went though the calibration both Audyssey and mine. I have not and won't be turning on Audyssey EQ.

The Audyssey gain settings of all channels was virtually identical to the 7706, except that the power to all speakers except the front had been increased 2 to 2.5db. As is the case with Audyssey the sub channels are set woefully low. Bass management is different to previous AV unit, but after going through it I think it makes sense. So I set bass levels by ear and the did my measurements with Omni Mic. I found I had not lost my touch and that the FR curves where spot on. I think the slight increase in the surrounds outputs was significant. Now on the BPO Atmos concerts your can hear applause all round you as if in the audience, which is as it should be.

All speakers except the four ceiling speakers are set to large as previously. They are all very competent speakers and easily up to the task. I think this contributes to the very even response in the room and the very good room curves.

Now the sound was significantly cleaner and precise. The ambient field more realistic. Part of this I think is the superb SNR, as even trivial noise spoils the illusion.
This has been known for years.

However the sound is significantly more spacious with increased depth and the ambient field very realistic.

Now even though the distortion is significantly lower than the previous unit, I doubt that is the reason for this improvement. I think the answer is in the improved DAC. It is well known that better DACs handle lower level signals better. This is the opposite of analog circuits that get into trouble with high level signals. Digital signals also do but just hit a brick wall and distortion goes through the roof along with nasty pops often. It is not pretty when that happens. So I think the improved SQ is coming from the ambient tail as the sounds fades. I think this is the reason for the improved sound and the increase in the depth of field.
There is no doubt this unit has improved the performance of the system and not in a trivial way, which is a very pleasant surprise to me, which was not the reason for this new build out.

The room FRs and speaker FRs are not significantly different from previously, and are excellent. The bass performance is a little smoother, but that could just be that the mic is in a slightly different place. The rig is not in need of any Eq from Audyssey and I will not be shelling out for DIRAC.

So far I am thrilled with this unit that is delivering totally unexpected improved SQ. It is so good now that with the BPO Atmos you can believe you are actually there.

Lastly picture quality from the AV10 is significantly improved. I think this is because the HDMI eARC output has enough power to reliably power the Hybrid cable and they tell you not to use a voltage inserter. So I have removed my voltage inserter.

One other bonus. The designers have somehow solved the issue of the low level of streamed Atmos content. Dolby insists on normalization of Dolby Atmos streams to EBU specs which is -18 LUFS. However on this unit Atmos steams play back at levels comparable to stereo streams.

So tomorrow my 7706 will be shipped for warranty repair. Not sure what I will do with it, but likely put it in the family room system and see how it holds up.

And just think- at $130/hr per person (minimum, now), you saved over $3600, just in labor. Fun, isn't it?

Unexpected improvements are one of the reasons I have enjoyed installing AV/Home Theater and stereo systems- when the client is blown away and they make it obvious, it's a good thing. As a DIY-er, it's even better, expecially when your expectations weren't high.

Just in case you didn't see it, I found this in General, Front Panel- maybe it will help with the lights being too bright.

Front Panel AV 10

manuals.marantz.com

 

[Trell]

And just think- at $130/hr per person (minimum, now), you saved over $3600, just in labor. Fun, isn't it?

Unexpected improvements are one of the reasons I have enjoyed installing AV/Home Theater and stereo systems- when the client is blown away and they make it obvious, it's a good thing. As a DIY-er, it's even better, expecially when your expectations weren't high.

Just in case you didn't see it, I found this in General, Front Panel- maybe it will help with the lights being too bright.

Front Panel AV 10

manuals.marantz.com

So you claim in sales. Me, I think you're on the brink of bankruptcy.

 

[Tankini]

And just think- at $130/hr per person (minimum, now), you saved over $3600, just in labor. Fun, isn't it?

Unexpected improvements are one of the reasons I have enjoyed installing AV/Home Theater and stereo systems- when the client is blown away and they make it obvious, it's a good thing. As a DIY-er, it's even better, expecially when your expectations weren't high.

Just in case you didn't see it, I found this in General, Front Panel- maybe it will help with the lights being too bright.

Front Panel AV 10

manuals.marantz.com

Wait what?! Maybe some don't like bright lights. What the h$ll man!!

 

[TLS Guy]

I think after this upgrade, you have clearly and truly passed the so called point of diminishing return such that even if you had gone with Trinnov's or Storm audios class of AVP that are much more costly, you won't hear anything better, unless you changed you mind and believe Dirac Live ART and Trinnov's RC systems will take things to a different level.

Not a chance! This system is so close to live now, especially with well engineered Atmos, that I think now I could only make things worse and not better with any meddling. So, I will leave well alone, unless anything else blows up. I was at my dealers today, and heard a $45,000 a pair set of speakers. I played some lovely Elgar, that I know well, recorded in the old Kingsway Hall. Superbly recorded. On those speakers I could not tell the soprano, from the mezzo and the males, especially the baritone sounded castrated. Every time I have an experience like this, I feel so fortunate to not have to shop for loudspeakers and never have had to.

I found a set of measurements for those and it confirmed what I heard.

I just don't understand why so many speakers, including high priced ones, are so awful.

 

[TLS Guy]

I got that feature added to all new Marantz and Denon 4sub enabled products

I have it that way. If I am wrong about this correct me Gene, but I set all the bed layer speakers to large, and only the ceiling speakers are crossed iver, and I checked the LFE + main option.

On my previous units you set a speaker to large and had the option to check LFE + main for each speaker. So rightly, or wrongly I assumed the end result was the same and just saved a few steps. As far as I can tell the measurements are the same.

My rears in particular have a very potent bass response. Two KEF B139s in a properly designed and constructed TL line can produce prodigious bass. Raymond Cooke rated them at 80 watts each, but others have found the correct rating is 200 watts each. I have driven them hard for years and touch wood I never blown one up. I hope that does not tempt fate and ruin my run. Falcon acoustics are manufacturing the B 139 again. That is one of the finest bass driver of all time and can see off a lot of, if not most of the competition.

Any how I think always having this AV system set that way, has contributed to the even and not at all boomy bass response over the whole room.

Lastly thank you so much for steering me to the Marantz AV 10. That was the right choice I am certain. Unfortunately I think those units coming out of Vietnam have to be relegated to the junk category. My 7705 failed at five years and went off to be recycled, and the 7706 is on its way back to Marantz now after developing a fault at three months.

My only issue with the AV 10 is its user manual is over 350 pages!

 

[TLS Guy]

And just think- at $130/hr per person (minimum, now), you saved over $3600, just in labor. Fun, isn't it?

Unexpected improvements are one of the reasons I have enjoyed installing AV/Home Theater and stereo systems- when the client is blown away and they make it obvious, it's a good thing. As a DIY-er, it's even better, expecially when your expectations weren't high.

Just in case you didn't see it, I found this in General, Front Panel- maybe it will help with the lights being too bright.

Front Panel AV 10

manuals.marantz.com

I will try it, and see what happens. However, I need to see the LED panel from my chair when the window blinds are up in the day time, when I don't have the screen on.

I will be passing though Milwaukee next month July 5/6. One of my brothers is here for a week, and we will stay a night in Milwaukee and then go up to Manitowoc and take the Badger over to Ludington. A trip on the Badger has been on my bucket list for a long time. Then we head to Mackinac Island and then return home here to Eagan.

You are welcome here anytime, and we would really like to have you as our guest. We are pretty much exactly six hours from Milwaukee.

 

[Alex2507]

My only issue with the AV 10 is its user manual is over 350 pages!

... and I thought your posts were long.

 

[highfigh]

I will try it, and see what happens. However, I need to see the LED panel from my chair when the window blinds are up in the day time, when I don't have the screen on.

I will be passing though Milwaukee next month July 5/6. One of my brothers is here for a week, and we will stay a night in Milwaukee and then go up to Manitowoc and take the Badger over to Ludington. A trip on the Badger has been on my bucket list for a long time. Then we head to Mackinaw Island and then return home here to Eagan.

You are welcome here anytime, and we would really like to have you as our guest. We are pretty much exactly six hours from Milwaukee.

You can control that AVP via IP, too. That way, the bright display and lights won't need to be distracting.

How are you controlling the system, one remote or by juggling many?

Thanks for the offer- I have a lot going on, so I'll see how I can make the trip.