Man on Mars!

[Halon451]

No kidding. The last time I saw Bugs, I couldn't believe some of the things he said.

Well, I'm sure a large percentage of us grew up watching those old WB cartoons (as I did), that are so deemed as "adult content" material these days, therefore not shown on Saturday morning (as they used to be). And hey - we all turned out fine, didn't we??


As far as life on Mars - this is one of those things (like UFO's) - I will believe it when I see the proof. Viewing canyons and supposed aquifers on the Martian surface isn't proof - it's theory. Seeing odd rock formations that resemble human features (or even an entire humanoid body) is intriguing and worthy of discussion alright, but again - is nowhere near conclusive proof or evidence of life. For hundreds of years we - as a human race - have yearned so strongly to believe in the existence of life outside of our planet that at times our imaginations have superceded the actual facts as they are.

My best guess is that when and if we do find life out there, it is likely to be microbial in nature and a billion light years away from us. If we get to Mars in the next couple of decades and discover that there are some little squirmy things in the subterranean environment, then I will change my viewpoint - otherwise it's all science fiction for now.

 

[Johnd]

Well, I'm sure a large percentage of us grew up watching those old WB cartoons (as I did), that are so deemed as "adult content" material these days, therefore not shown on Saturday morning (as they used to be). And hey - we all turned out fine, didn't we??


As far as life on Mars - this is one of those things (like UFO's) - I will believe it when I see the proof. Viewing canyons and supposed aquifers on the Martian surface isn't proof - it's theory. Seeing odd rock formations that resemble human features (or even an entire humanoid body) is intriguing and worthy of discussion alright, but again - is nowhere near conclusive proof or evidence of life. For hundreds of years we - as a human race - have yearned so strongly to believe in the existence of life outside of our planet that at times our imaginations have superceded the actual facts as they are.

My best guess is that when and if we do find life out there, it is likely to be microbial in nature and a billion light years away from us. If we get to Mars in the next couple of decades and discover that there are some little squirmy things in the subterranean environment, then I will change my viewpoint - otherwise it's all science fiction for now.

Halo, you sure know how to call a discusssion! Just kidding.

I'll admit the existence of water on Mars is not proof of life...but it's so much more than just water. Look at the hope we held our for the moon...and we have just craters and dust (...and a lot helium -3! )

My point is that life (as we know it) does not exist without water. It does not, and it can not. So by extension, the possibility of life now exists on Mars. Even if it's just microbial. And the really mind blowing thing is that if water (or life ) exists (existed) on Mars, a planet other than Earth, it may then exist on any other planet in the solar system...let alone the universe. Mind blowing...truly mind blowing.

 

[Davemcc]

There is a great deal of water floating out in space in comets, meteors and debris in the Kyuper belt. Given the nature of the creation of planets, i.e. fields of space debris drawn together by gravity, it is entirely plausible that all planets have had some contact with water. The questions are, can the planet hold that water and if it does, where does it hold it? Evaporated water can be blown into space by solar wind. Subsurface water can be frozen indefinitely. Water evaporated by the heat of the planet's core can be held underground as liquid or vapor.

Earth was lucky in it's early history to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere of methane, carbon dioxide, hydrogen and water vapor with little to no free oxygen. Earth's first life was anaerobic cyanobacteria which existed as almost the sole form of life for the vast majority of the history of life on Earth. Oxygen was the by-product of these organisms and over billions of years, oxygenated the atmosphere to allow the kind of life we know today. Some forms of this life still live miles underground in solid rock without access to oxygen or sunlight.

The point of all this (if you were wondering) is that Mars was created by essentially the same process and material as Earth. There may well be water and microbacteria miles beneath the surface that we may never find. This life, or proto-life if you will, may remain dormant for many more billions of years until the astro-geologic conditions of Mars evolve to the point where such life can prosper. Even then, it might be many more billions of years before anything beyond single cell, non-nucleus, anaerobic bacteria could form, as was the case on Earth.

 

[Johnd]

There is a great deal of water floating out in space in comets, meteors and debris in the Kyuper belt. Given the nature of the creation of planets, i.e. fields of space debris drawn together by gravity, it is entirely plausible that all planets have had some contact with water. The questions are, can the planet hold that water and if it does, where does it hold it? Evaporated water can be blown into space by solar wind. Subsurface water can be frozen indefinitely. Water evaporated by the heat of the planet's core can be held underground as liquid or vapor.

Earth was lucky in it's early history to have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere of methane, carbon dioxide, hydrogen and water vapor with little to no free oxygen. Earth's first life was anaerobic cyanobacteria which existed as almost the sole form of life for the vast majority of the history of life on Earth. Oxygen was the by-product of these organisms and over billions of years, oxygenated the atmosphere to allow the kind of life we know today. Some forms of this life still live miles underground in solid rock without access to oxygen or sunlight.

The point of all this (if you were wondering) is that Mars was created by essentially the same process and material as Earth. There may well be water and microbacteria miles beneath the surface that we may never find. This life, or proto-life if you will, may remain dormant for many more billions of years until the astro-geologic conditions of Mars evolve to the point where such life can prosper. Even then, it might be many more billions of years before anything beyond single cell, non-nucleus, anaerobic bacteria could form, as was the case on Earth.

Sheesh, Dave. You've just sucked all the fun, and mystery out of it. Kidding, of, course.

The point I was making is in this time of an economic crunch and NASA cutbacks and loss of interest in NASA expolaration, much can be learned from space exploration. And not just from microbes. While life on other planets seems to be the ultimate quest...there is so much that we do not know, and much can be learned from our queries into other realms. Even if it's not displayed on network news. And even if there is no life there.

 

[stratman]

Life on Mars! Are you kidding? My cousins have been living there for millenia! They're just not as hairy as us and a little "redder", but besides that we look the same.

 

[Halon451]

I have to agree with Dave, and not totally disagree with John - I too, yearn for the existence of other life-forms in the universe, if anything to prove that we're not completely alone in this great big empty void of space. Water and ice of course, as Dave pointed out has already been discovered on countless other stellar and planetary bodies. Europa, for example - one of Jupiter's moons is almost entirely made of water-based ice.

The existence of water on Mars, admittedly is a different story, because of the more moderate climate that exists on the red planet. Of course there has to be the right conditions and the right ingredients in the right proportions to support any form of life, and if it does exist anywhere in this particular solar system, then I believe it would be Mars; or at the least evidence (fossilized or other) that it once existed.

But hey - I'm no astronomer or anything...

 

[Halon451]

Sheesh, Dave. You've just sucked all the fun, and mystery out of it. Kidding, of, course.

The point I was making is in this time of an economic crunch and NASA cutbacks and loss of interest in NASA expolaration, much can be learned from space exploration. And not just from microbes. While life on other planets seems to be the ultimate quest...there is so much that we do not know, and much can be learned from our queries into other realms. Even if it's not displayed on network news. And even if there is no life there.

Agreed - but the surge in interest back in the 50's and 60's wasn't entirely based in science. Politics, and the tensions between ourselves and the Soviet Union, and our desire to beat them to orbit (and then on to the moon) helped fuel the governmental interest that allowed NASA to acquire the funding for such programs as the Apollo missions. It's not that the interest isn't still there (as I'm sure anyone at NASA would attest), it's just that the thrill of it has moved on, no longer spurred forth by political bravado. I'd sure as heck like to see us manning a mission to Mars within my lifetime.

Life on Mars! Are you kidding? My cousins have been living there for millenia! They're just not as hairy as us and a little "redder", but besides that we look the same.

Wha-?? You mean like a lost "Planet of the Apes" type thing or something? Not to imply that your people are apes, Strat, as you have one advantage over them - the use of fire.

 

[Highlander]

My cousins...

Woe bedite the day Stratman changes his avatar.

 

[stratman]

Woe bedite the day Stratman changes his avatar.

What!!!!??? And be a traitor to my kind?!!!

 

[Johnd]

Woe bedite the day Stratman changes his avatar.

Must have gonads of steel: keeping that avatar after that embarrassing excuse for the Cavemen show.

I don't know if you received it over there Robbie. You missed nothing if not. Akin to the new lie detector show, or whatever it's called (again, you've missed nothing if you don't receive it). The Cavemen show was a shortlived (thankfully) series on strat's brothers. Droll, even by strat's measure.

 

[Johnd]

Agreed - but the surge in interest back in the 50's and 60's wasn't entirely based in science. Politics, and the tensions between ourselves and the Soviet Union, and our desire to beat them to orbit (and then on to the moon) helped fuel the governmental interest that allowed NASA to acquire the funding for such programs as the Apollo missions. It's not that the interest isn't still there (as I'm sure anyone at NASA would attest), it's just that the thrill of it has moved on, no longer spurred forth by political bravado. I'd sure as heck like to see us manning a mission to Mars within my lifetime.



Wha-?? You mean like a lost "Planet of the Apes" type thing or something? Not to imply that your people are apes, Strat, as you have one advantage over them - the use of fire.

Well, science doesn't have less value because there is no longer a race to the moon. And science does not exist for science's sake.

Many, many experiments are done without success...they still have to be done. That is part of the process. Testing and experimenting and exploring. Not every road travelled ends in a pot of gold. Nevertheless, the experiments that fail to prove the objective serve to establish what direction to avoid in the future.

I don't see exploration in space as a political thing. The lack of "political bravado" does not undo the importance for me. But the things we learn out there, and the things we build to get there eventually serve us in everyday life. Not to mention those nebulous things: information and knowledge gained.

 

[Halon451]

Well, science doesn't have less value because there is no longer a race to the moon. And science does not exist for science's sake.

Many, many experiments are done without success...they still have to be done. That is part of the process. Testing and experimenting and exploring. Not every road travelled ends in a pot of gold. Nevertheless, the experiments that fail to prove the objective serve to establish what direction to avoid in the future.

I don't see exploration in space as a political thing. The lack of "political bravado" does not undo the importance for me. But the things we learn out there, and the things we build to get there eventually serve us in everyday life. Not to mention those nebulous things: information and knowledge gained.

I totally agree John - my point was that because of the end of our political war of words and ideas with the USSR, there has been considerable loss of interest among those in Washington to pursue such explorations. There are plenty of people still chomping at the bit to get out there, to experiment, to explore, to build, create and explain - but without federal funding, these programs are inevitably hobbled, whereas they might otherwise succeed.

The lack of political backing certainly hasn't undermined the notion amongst our scientists, nor myself, as a true fan of science I believe we should constantly strive to reach as far as we can as a species at better understanding ourselves and our place in the universe. Money talks though - it's an unfortunate fact.

 

[Johnd]

I totally agree John - my point was that because of the end of our political war of words and ideas with the USSR, there has been considerable loss of interest among those in Washington to pursue such explorations. There are plenty of people still chomping at the bit to get out there, to experiment, to explore, to build, create and explain - but without federal funding, these programs are inevitably hobbled, whereas they might otherwise succeed.

The lack of political backing certainly hasn't undermined the notion amongst our scientists, nor myself, as a true fan of science I believe we should constantly strive to reach as far as we can as a species at better understanding ourselves and our place in the universe. Money talks though - it's an unfortunate fact.

Agreed. And thank you for the extrapolation. I now understand you statement better. And I, for one, just remain in awe at those Mars photographs (over the past few years). It's good stuff.

 

[astrodon]

I am quite happy to see all of the intelligent conversation being carried out in this thread. I agree with much of what has been said. Mars was a wetter place back in the early history of the solar system, and it is quite possible that simple lifeforms did get their start during those times on Mars. Unfortunately, due to Mars' low mass, it couldn't hang on to much of an atmosphere over a long period of time and the resulting low atmospheric pressure couldn't support water in a liquid state. Also unfortunately, Mars is no longer "geologically" active, once again due to its smaller size than Earth (insufficient internal radioactivity to keep the interior molten). As such, it is unlikely that Mars' has any living lifeforms now and unlikely that it will during the remaining lifetime of the solar system (still have 5 billion years before the Sun becomes a red giant) -- though we should still carry out the search just to be sure.

As was previously said, Europa is the place in the solar system that is most likely to support some type of life outside of Earth. It has a subsurface liquid water ocean (moon-wide) and has an energy source available to support life (internal tidal heating from Jupiter's gravitational field). NASA has made some initial studies of the best way to investigate the search for life in Europa's oceans (unfortunately, such a mission won't likely happen in our lifetimes). Of course one main problem with such a mission is to get a spacecraft and probe to be 100% sterilized to prevent contamination (we want to make sure any lifeforms detected weren't brought along from Earth, we have experience with Earth lifeforms surviving for nearly a decade in the vacuum of space).

Will we find extraterrestrial life? I hope so. It possible that the first evidence for life will be found on a planet around another star. NASA has a few missions in development (unless their funding hasn't been cut since I last checked) to search for terrestrial-like (i.e., small rocky) planets around other stars. If we can obtain a spectrum of such a planet and said planet's spectrum shows molecular oxygen in its atmosphere, this would be all the proof needed for life on other worlds -- O2 is the product of life, it can't be made any other way. Also, O2 doesn't last a long time, so such a spectrum would show that a biosphere was currently present on such a planet. We are probably 20 to 30 years away from having a telescope/spectroscope in space capable of recording such a spectrum, but it will be exciting if that day ever comes.

 

[Johnd]

Thanks astrodon for the informed opinion. I was waiting for you to get around here.

 

[astrodon]

Thanks astrodon for the informed opinion. I was waiting for you to get around here.

Thanks John, and sorry for the delay. I've been rather busy at work. I'll be glad when this semester ends.

 

[highfihoney]

there is a disclaimer on the package stating that it contains "adult" material.

You have got to be friggen kidding me

What is wrong with people's head's.

 

[stratman]

You have got to be friggen kidding me

What is wrong with people's head's.

Sad isn't it? Man that's PC for you.