Looking to upgrade my turntable

[lovinthehd]

I honestly didn't think I was going to start listening to vinyl all that much again. When I put some records on the other day, they sounded really good. I have so many old, used records that it would be a shame not to listen to them. I have so many.

Now I have a lot of cassette as well, but being they are all around 30 years old, they are either breaking or squealing so bad they are unlistenable. Now the JVC TD-W318 Double cassette deck works better than the cassettes I own. I just cleaned and demagnetized the heads. Even in their best day, even the Chrome Prerecorded tapes didn't hold a candle to Vinyl because their dynamics and frequency response was so bad.

Vinyl sounds just as good if not better than many CDs depending on their masters. Just no reason not to listen. The pops and crackles bring me back to my younger days sitting in a garage, made into a hang out with a Scott receiver and high end turntable, listening to Pink Floyd's "The Wall" and "Wish You Were Here".

Vinyl can sound fine but better than many CDs hasn't been my experience, but good recordings are good recordings (good music means a lot more than the media itself, too). The cassettes are long gone, too fussy to deal with. I have something like 800 LPs and a hundred 45s but still don't use 'em much these days except for nostalgia sessions or something that's hard to find a digital copy of....can't think of any where I think "oh the vinyl sounds so much better" though. Got some examples of what vinyl you think sounds better than the digital versions?

 

[Mike Up]

Vinyl can sound fine but better than many CDs hasn't been my experience, but good recordings are good recordings (good music means a lot more than the media itself, too). The cassettes are long gone, too fussy to deal with. I have something like 800 LPs and a hundred 45s but still don't use 'em much these days except for nostalgia sessions or something that's hard to find a digital copy of....can't think of any where I think "oh the vinyl sounds so much better" though. Got some examples of what vinyl you think sounds better than the digital versions?

I did prefer Billy Squier's Enough is Enough vinyl master to the Digital 16 bit/44.1Khz FLAC master.

 

[lovinthehd]

I did prefer Billy Squier's Enough is Enough vinyl master to the Digital FLAC master.

Well, that's one.....otoh when I first got cd it was a fairly obvious how better it was over vinyl in just the limitations of the vinyl media over a wide swath of music. Sure, there are lots of masters for vinyl that are very well done, but not all....and some digital was just the vinyl master. OTOH bulk of recording has been done digitally for quite a while now, making vinyl more a lifestyle thing IMHO.

 

[Mikado463]

Further reading for your record cleaning journey .......

Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

For another group, I was asked to put together a series of comments on record cleaning. I thought I'd share excerpts from it with this forum, fully knowing that it will be controversial with some who swear by their methods. Keep in mind, they are my opinions as a former Biochemist and as a...

audiokarma.org

 

[m. zillch]

So, for those spinning vinyl, what is your favorite 'flavor of the month', concerning stylus shape ?

There's no one answer because the answer is different depending on how you prioritize your goals:
- minimize record wear
- minimize cartridge wear
- optimize playback for a precisely setup cartridge (done so meticulously you need to alter it due to the variations in record thickness, like for those thicker 180 and 200g LPs, or different mat thicknesses).
- optimize playback for typical cartridge setup and alignment where you set it up once and don't change anything per record height changes like picky people do.

A very, very common mistake people make is to use a light tracking force (thinking it minimizes wear) but it actually can be the most damaging!
It is said that the cartridge is less likely to cling tightly to the walls during loud (heavily modulated) passages and instead of maintaining proper contact it gets bashed from side to side like a ping pong ball, smashing into both sides of the groove wall causing dents. That bashing around left to right is what causes the most damage! [It's largely why I usually avoid buying used records: I have no idea how it has been played before I got it.]

 

[m. zillch]

Don't they already exist, like a CD or BD player?

But with them if you press the pause button the laser keeps playing the same "groove" and it can burn a circle into your disc causing a tick or a thunk sound upon future playbacks. [JOKE]

 

[Mike Up]

Since I'm going back to my record collection, I thought I would go back to Videodiscs (CEDs) as well and pull out that old dusty disc of 1941.

 

[Mike Up]

No, I don't have any VideoDiscs but when I was a kid, my friend had a bunch and our favorite movie was 1941 (which we weren't suppose to watch!).

 

[Mikado463]

There's no one answer because the answer is different depending on how you prioritize your goals:
- minimize record wear
- minimize cartridge wear
- optimize playback for a precisely setup cartridge (done so meticulously you need to alter it due to the variations in record thickness, like for those thicker 180 and 200g LPs, or different mat thicknesses).
- optimize playback for typical cartridge setup and alignment where you set it up once and don't change anything per record height changes like picky people do.

A very, very common mistake people make is to use a light tracking force (thinking it minimizes wear) but it actually can be the most damaging!
It is said that the cartridge is less likely to cling tightly to the walls during loud (heavily modulated) passages and instead of maintaining proper contact it gets bashed from side to side like a ping pong ball, smashing into both sides of the groove wall causing dents. That bashing around left to right is what causes the most damage! [It's largely why I usually avoid buying used records: I have no idea how it has been played before I got it.]

Exactly, I'm well aware, thus my question / wondering what all are using currently.

For me, it's a Benz Micro Gullwing, nude line-contact stylus.

 

[TLS Guy]

There's no one answer because the answer is different depending on how you prioritize your goals:
- minimize record wear
- minimize cartridge wear
- optimize playback for a precisely setup cartridge (done so meticulously you need to alter it due to the variations in record thickness, like for those thicker 180 and 200g LPs, or different mat thicknesses).
- optimize playback for typical cartridge setup and alignment where you set it up once and don't change anything per record height changes like picky people do.

A very, very common mistake people make is to use a light tracking force (thinking it minimizes wear) but it actually can be the most damaging!
It is said that the cartridge is less likely to cling tightly to the walls during loud (heavily modulated) passages and instead of maintaining proper contact it gets bashed from side to side like a ping pong ball, smashing into both sides of the groove wall causing dents. That bashing around left to right is what causes the most damage! [It's largely why I usually avoid buying used records: I have no idea how it has been played before I got it.]

You are correct about too low playing force. You want to set the tracking force towards the upper end of the tracking force spec.

 

[Mike Up]

Well I got my Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT all setup and my first album was Heart Passion Works. It sounded absolutely amazing. A lot of detail and bass punch. Compared it to the 24 bit/96Khz version on Tidal through my Wiim Pro Plus and the album version was much MUCH better. The FLAC 24 bit/96Khz was even harsh or distorted on louder vocals. Sounded like crap while the vinyl was perfect. Also the FLAC 24 bit version had no bass, no punch, sounded anemic. I didn't have another master or a 16bit version to compare. Maybe the 24 bit version is just crap and really opened my eyes to how 24 bit/96khz means little when it sounds like garbage next to vinyl.

Now while the AT-LP3XBT sounded great, there are some things I'm not to happy with it, but for it's price and performance, I guess that's just how it is.

First, while having a MDF Plinth, I was expecting a simulated wood veneer or at least a vinyl wrap. The plinth has a plastic shell and no where did any retailer state this, just that it was MDF. Now the AT-LP3XBT is twice as heavy as my AT-LP60-USB so that is a good thing.

Second, Audio Technica states it has a lockable rest for the tonearm in their literature and webpage for the AT-LP3XBT. IT DOES NOT. It has no clamp or anything to lock the tonearm. Now the rest is a U shaped cradle where it won't slip or fall out of it, but not a locking clamp. This is the same I have on my Audio Technica AT-LP60-USB.

3rd, you can hear the turntable spinning from across the room. Not happy with that but hopefully it will quiet down the more I use it. By comparison my $120 AT-LP60-USB is dead quiet and they are both fully automatic turntables.

I'm really happy with how great this sounds and I guess it's all mainly because of the AT-VM95c cartridge that is raved about all over the internet. Also perhaps it's anti-resonant base where not as much is coming into the stylus to muddy up the sound.

The noise doesn't sound like a scrape or anything but typical motor and gear noise but is completely absent on the AT-LP60-USB that is less than 1/3 of the price of the AT-LP3XBT.

 

[m. zillch]

Exactly, I'm well aware, thus my question / wondering what all are using currently.

Oh, OK. CD was released in late 1982 hence I pretty much stopped buying or focusing on vinyl in 1983 (due to its inferior sound quality), but the phonograph system I currently own, which I inherited, uses hyper elliptical.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well I got my Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT all setup and my first album was Heart Passion Works. It sounded absolutely amazing. A lot of detail and bass punch. Compared it to the 24 bit/96Khz version on Tidal through my Wiim Pro Plus and the album version was much MUCH better. The FLAC 24 bit/96Khz was even harsh or distorted on louder vocals. Sounded like crap while the vinyl was perfect. Also the FLAC 24 bit version had no bass, no punch, sounded anemic. I didn't have another master or a 16bit version to compare. Maybe the 24 bit version is just crap and really opened my eyes to how 24 bit/96khz means little when it sounds like garbage next to vinyl.

Now while the AT-LP3XBT sounded great, there are some things I'm not to happy with it, but for it's price and performance, I guess that's just how it is.

First, while having a MDF Plinth, I was expecting a simulated wood veneer or at least a vinyl wrap. The plinth has a plastic shell and no where did any retailer state this, just that it was MDF. Now the AT-LP3XBT is twice as heavy as my AT-LP60-USB so that is a good thing.

Second, Audio Technica states it has a lockable rest for the tonearm in their literature and webpage for the AT-LP3XBT. IT DOES NOT. It has no clamp or anything to lock the tonearm. Now the rest is a U shaped cradle where it won't slip or fall out of it, but not a locking clamp. This is the same I have on my Audio Technica AT-LP60-USB.

3rd, you can hear the turntable spinning from across the room. Not happy with that but hopefully it will quiet down the more I use it. By comparison my $120 AT-LP60-USB is dead quiet and they are both fully automatic turntables.

I'm really happy with how great this sounds and I guess it's all mainly because of the AT-VM95c cartridge that is raved about all over the internet. Also perhaps it's anti-resonant base where not as much is coming into the stylus to muddy up the sound.

The noise doesn't sound like a scrape or anything but typical motor and gear noise but is completely absent on the AT-LP60-USB that is less than 1/3 of the price of the AT-LP3XBT.

That noise from across the room would have me returning it pronto. Good luck!

 

[Mikado463]

That noise from across the room would have me returning it pronto. Good luck!

across the room, hell you shouldn't hear anything standing right next to it !!

 

[Mike Up]

Yeh, my AT-LP60-USB is dead silent.

Im going to take the platter off and see if the belt got twisted. It initially did and I had to fix it. Maybe there is another twist in there. I can also run it without the platter to see if the motor is noisy by itself.

If it is still an issue, I may just send it back. Im hoping there is a twist in the belt or something isnt seated properly.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeh, my AT-LP60-USB is dead silent.

Im going to take the platter off and see if the belt got twisted. It initially did and I had to fix it. Maybe there is another twist in there. I can also run it without the platter to see if the motor is noisy by itself.

If it is still an issue, I may just send it back. Im hoping there is a twist in the belt or something isnt seated properly.

I have trouble making sense of this whole episode. You have done a lateral swap or worse in my view.

Turntables are in the main mechanical devices. So precision engineering and manufacture along with elegant design are prerequisites for superior performance. There is no error correction like in digital devices.

So an expectation for improved performance is skilled design along with precision manufacture. This costs money. That is why really good turntables cost a lot of money, although even that is not a guarantee they will be any good.

So, I would not expect what you bought to have been an improvement, and because of inflation quite possibly worse.

On the upside, really good design and engineering does not go out of date. So good turntables are a lifetime investment. Hence I enjoy superb results from turntable many, many years old.

 

[Mike Up]

OK, I found the exact same issue on the AT-LP70XBT. They obviously share the same motor as it looks identical and have a common problem.

I guess I'll send it back.

As far as the turntable, it was a large upgrade minus the motor noise. The cartridge itself sounds much better. Now add in a wood plinth compared to a plastic plinth that rings when you knock on it. I'm sure that plastic resonant plinth of the LP60 is adding some vibrations through the stylus that is muddying the sound from my subwoofer.

Also I now have a ground terminal, not sure exactly how both are internally wired, but ground wire should carry away the noise from the turntable. I see the Denon and JBL turntables don't have ground terminals either.

It had bluetooth, but I'd never use that.

Being $400 was the most I wanted to spend as I can't justify any more. Heck I could just replace my vinyl albums with CDs since a more costly turntable would be the expense I could do so.

I'll just stick to my AT-LP60-USB. No sense by going with a $400 Dual, Teac, JBL, or Denon as they all use the same AT3600L cartridge my AT-LP60-USB already has.

I guess I'm getting really turned off of all this as turntables are just too expensive for what they are and offer. They are just god awful expensive compared to what they were only a few years ago.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, I found the exact same issue on the AT-LP70XBT. They obviously share the same motor as it looks identical and have a common problem.

I guess I'll send it back.

As far as the turntable, it was a large upgrade minus the motor noise. The cartridge itself sounds much better. Now add in a wood plinth compared to a plastic plinth that rings when you knock on it. I'm sure that plastic resonant plinth of the LP60 is adding some vibrations through the stylus that is muddying the sound from my subwoofer.

Also I now have a ground terminal, not sure exactly how both are internally wired, but ground wire should carry away the noise from the turntable. I see the Denon and JBL turntables don't have ground terminals either.

It had bluetooth, but I'd never use that.

Being $400 was the most I wanted to spend as I can't justify any more. Heck I could just replace my vinyl albums with CDs since a more costly turntable would be the expense I could do so.

I'll just stick to my AT-LP60-USB. No sense by going with a $400 Dual, Teac, JBL, or Denon as they all use the same AT3600L cartridge my AT-LP60-USB already has.

I guess I'm getting really turned off of all this as turntables are just too expensive for what they are and offer. They are just god awful expensive compared to what they were only a few years ago.

You are wrong about that. Good turntables with good arms and cartridges can give phenomenally good reproduction. The issue is that it requires precision engineering and craftsmanship. They are in no way analogous to digital disc players. That is why the best of them hold their values so well even if they are 60 years old. High quality craftsmanship is ageless. This does put good analog at a disadvantage vis-a-vis the digital age, as bits are bits and it has error correction. No error correction on a turntable or tape machine. It has to be right by design and built with exemplary craftsmanship. $400.00 is way south of the cost for a really good turntable. Even if you go vintage, you won't save money and will spend about the same and may be more.

 

[Mike Up]

Ok, I'm going to try one more time with a turntable within my budget.

The $500 Denon DP-300F is on sale for $350, looks quality and has good reviews and comes with a bit lower quality cartridge than the LP3XBT, the Denon clone of the AT91 and it's 2.0g tracking force. This is suppose to be a step above the AT3600L with better highs and lows, and the lower tracking force.

The reason I went with the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT over the Denon initially was the LP3XBT's better cartridge and $100 lower price.

The Denon at $350, lets me try the AT91 and if I want, upgrade to the AT-VM95c and still be at the same price the AT-LP3XBT is. Hopefully the motor noise will be much lower on the Denon.

 

[lovinthehd]

across the room, hell you shouldn't hear anything standing right next to it !!

True enough, but across the room is insane!