Looking to run a true 5HZ signal to my Sub woofers but think my anthem receiver will Bottle neck this.

[m. zillch]

Maybe instead of working on getting ultrasonic/ infrasonic sound out of our audio systems our time would be better spent on getting ultraviolet/infrared light out of our video monitors. Just think of all the benefits. We could get a tan just by watching a movie!

 

[m. zillch]

Here's a demo. According to AI this (I've never heard before) was the number 1 song last year. I picked it only because it is current, popular, and uses modern recording technologies, by artists who can afford state of art gear. According to my analysis in Audacity:

This is the loudest section of it near the end (at 3m30s):
Die With a Smile full range loud part

This is the exact same passage, at the same adjusted level, however only the content 25Hz and below part:
Die With a Smile same but 25Hz and below only

Psst: Infrasonic bass, below ~20Hz, is a worthless thing to worry about, for several reasons, for >99% of music.

 

[lovinthehd]

Here's a demo. According to AI this (I've never heard before) was the number 1 song last year. I picked it only because it is current, popular, and uses modern recording technologies, by artists who can afford state of art gear. According to my analysis in Audacity:

This is the loudest section of it near the end (at 3m30s):
Die With a Smile full range loud part

This is the exact same passage, at the same level, however only the content 25Hz and below:
Die With a Smile same but 25Hz and below only

Psst: Infrasonic bass, below ~20Hz, is a worthless thing to worry about, for several reasons, for >99% of music.

Music isn't particularly the usual concern with a lot of ULF content. A lot of use of ULF isn't about acoustical musical at all of course.

 

[m. zillch]

Music isn't particularly the usual concern with a lot of ULF content. A lot of use of ULF isn't about acoustical musical at all of course.

Name any commercially released music, of any genre, including non-acoustical, released in 2025 (and available for me to download from Youtube) which might better illustrate the usefulness of reproducing content under 20Hz, and I'll apply the exact same demo to it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Name any music, of any genre, including non-acoustical, released in 2025 (and available for me to download from Youtube) and I'll apply the exact same demo to it.

Whut?

 

[m. zillch]

Sorry I was not clear so I have re-written my post (number 24).

 

[Allen Vos]

Maybe instead of working on getting ultrasonic/ infrasonic sound out of our audio systems our time would be better spent on getting ultraviolet/infrared light out of our video monitors. Just think of all the benefits. We could get a tan just by watching a movie!

Why dont we all do both?

 

[Allen Vos]

Yes, you can use a mic and REW and implement eq if your gear can accept it....your 1140 may not be able to do that, tho. I'm talking about leaving the 1140 largely out of the equation if it is so limiting. I somewhat doubt it is that limited, and you'd be fine doing initial setup with the minidsp and final incorporation with your speakers with ARC....

As far as I know the 1140 will only do room correction with its own ARC software and microphone.

I hope this doesnt sound like a stupid question, but if I do need to calibrate the subs seperatley, can that be done with REW, a umik 1 mic and upload that into a Mini DSP Flex HTx?

Will REW flatten the sub curve, just like the ARC software would ?

Sorry I am not familiar with REW at all, but I will have to learn how to use it once I get my setup built.

 

[highfigh]

So as many of you know from a previous thread I am builiding 4 Mach 5 auido ftw-21" sub woofers in 4 seperate sealed boxed. Using Winisd and the cone excursion function I am able to get these subs down to 5HZ with 1200 watts of imput in a 6.2 cubic foot sealed box, with only 23mm of cone excursion, which is well under the 29mm spec of the sub travel

So I will list my entire setup here with regards to imput source, reciever, mini dsp and amplifier.

Anthem MRX1140 Reciever, which outputs an unbalanced sub out signal to the Mini DSP
Zidoo Zx9 media player, is connected to the Anthem Via HDMI
Mini DSP Flex HTx hooked to the CVR amp via TRS to XLR cords for a true balanced signal
CVR D-1004 Amplifier powering all 4 sub woofers

The issue I am going to run into is that the Anthem reciever has a frequency cut off at 20HZ, so If I wanted a true 5HZ signal into the subs, I would have to have the mini DSP Flex HTx reproduce that signal. Since that signal does not come from the Anthem reciever, the mini DSP cannot restore or cleanly boost a signal that has already been filtered out by the AVR without introducing severe noise and clipping.

Another option would be to connect a USB cord from the Zidoo box direct to the mini DSP so it would get a true 5HZ signal to the CVR amp and avoid the 20HZ cut off in the anthem reciever.

I do understand a lot of this to a certain extent, however this is very much uncharted territory for me as I have really only played with store bought stuff most of my life and a small amount of car auidio.

I have not purchased the Mini DSP Flex HTx or the CVR D-1004 amplifier yet, so if there are better options for what I would like to do, I would appreciate some imput and Im more than willing to listen to advice.

5Hz is used for riot control- why do you think you need this?

 

[highfigh]

Well sir, considering you were dead wrong on the speaker over extension at lower frequencies, and since you were extremely negative with every other aspect we spoke about. I find it very difficult to take anything you say seriously, Sorry but I think you missed the fact that others are running these subs down to single digit frequencies. This speaks volumes and its not possible all these people are wrong.

Also the fact that you would rather be negative and argue about this than answer any of my questions, means I really dont want your help any longer.

You also completly missed what I had asked.

Just a little FYI.

Talking with you has caused me nothing but confusion and has not helped in the least.

Take good care

Do a frequency sweep with a woofer in free air and record video of the event, showing the frequency while the cone moves wildly. Then, show us how TLS is wrong.

 

[m. zillch]

5Hz is used for riot control- why do you think you need this?

But say you had a pet elephant and wanted to build a speakerphone for him so he could communicate with other elephants in other towns?

 

[Allen Vos]

Do a frequency sweep with a woofer in free air and record video of the event, showing the frequency while the cone moves wildly. Then, show us how TLS is wrong.

I am only interested in discussing the specific questions raised in my original post.

Take care.

 

[Allen Vos]

Chasing ULF is hard, and there isn't particularly a lot of content with it otoh. You can probably do better with the minidsp than ARC IMO. I'd confirm with Anthem for sure, tho.

So I just got off the phone with Anthem Tech Support. One thing I have to say, is these guys are an absolute pleasure to talk too and work with.

The very first thing he told me was that as long as you are using the ARC Genisys correction software, it will always set the lower limit at 15 HZ and will not pass any thing through lower than that...

Here are the steps that he explained to me...

1) Turn the subwoofers off in the ARC Genisys room correction software and or the WEB interface.

2) Run the Calibration on all other speakers and upload this to the Anthem Unit

3) Once this is all done, then go back into the WEB interface only and turn the subs back on.

4) Also within the WEB interface, set all the crossovers for all speakers at 80HZ(or whatever you set your crossovers at for sub control).

Only after following these steps, the Anthem reciever will pass through the source signal with out modifying it.


So this is a relief to know there is a work around for this. It looks like I will need to learn how to use REW and order myself up a UMIK-1 Microphone for the Sub correction.

I also wanted to say thank you for hearing me out and conversing with me on this, its appreciated.

 

[m. zillch]

So I just got off the phone with Anthem Tech Support. One thing I have to say, is these guys are an absolute pleasure to talk too and work with.

The very first thing he told me was that as long as you are using the ARC Genisys correction software, it will always set the lower limit at 15 HZ and will not pass any thing through lower than that...

Here are the steps that he explained to me...

1) Turn the subwoofers off in the ARC Genisys room correction software and or the WEB interface.

2) Run the Calibration on all other speakers and upload this to the Anthem Unit

3) Once this is all done, then go back into the WEB interface only and turn the subs back on.

4) Also within the WEB interface, set all the crossovers for all speakers at 80HZ(or whatever you set your crossovers at for sub control).

Only after following these steps, the Anthem reciever will pass through the source signal with out modifying it.


So this is a relief to know there is a work around for this. It looks like I will need to learn how to use REW and order myself up a UMIK-1 Microphone for the Sub correction.

I also wanted to say thank you for hearing me out and conversing with me on this, its appreciated.

If I'm reading this right, this $3.5K Anthem processor, in full range mode, seems incapable of a dead flat response even to 10Hz, let alone 5Hz, and that's with every form of DSP/filtration/crossover turned off or bypassed. I'd assume all their units act similarly in this regard.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/anthem-avm-review-fig-37.jpg

 

[Allen Vos]

If I'm reading this right, this $3.5K Anthem processor, in full range mode, seems incapable of a dead flat response even to 10Hz, let alone 5Hz, and that's with every form of DSP/filtration/crossover turned off or bypassed. I'd assume all their units act similarly in this regard.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/anthem-avm-review-fig-37.jpg

Well thank you for joining the actual discussion lol

Im not sure if its safe to assume all anthem products are the same, but I suppose one wouldnt know unless you are able to directly compare them.

Here is a graph from another forum with an MRX1140 down to 5hz at almost 90 dB with ARC room correction turned off.

You can see he is hitting 5hz with no issues

The one thing I did not ask , is if this is run through a mini DSP to get this graph, so I wil do that.

I think since there are so many different opinions here, I will definitley need to play with things once I get this setup , up and running, and will post my findings back here.

I have yet to learn how to fully use REW, but I see no reason why one couldnt play a 5hz or 10hz tone to verify output to set this whole argument to rest here.

 

[m. zillch]

View attachment 80027

You can see he is hitting 5hz with no issues

The one thing I did not ask , is if this is run through a mini DSP to get this graph, so I wil do that.

I think since there are so many different opinions here, I will definitley need to play with things once I get this setup , up and running, and will post my findings back here.

I have yet to learn how to fully use REW, but I see no reason why one couldnt play a 5hz or 10hz tone to verify output to set this whole argument to rest here.

See how bumpy that forum post's curve is, varying up and down by many dB between 20-20khz? Whereas the professional review site I linked to doesn't even vary by a single dB over that same range? This tells us the forum guy used a microphone rather than the proper way (to measure an electrical product) using a direct electrical wire.

When recording the output of a speaker you are sort of forced to use a mic but for an electrical device like a preamp, processor, or AVR you want to use the direct electrical feed only.

Recording with a mic is highly flawed because it introduces tons of huge variables:
- mic distance
- mic centering [Was it in front of the tweeter? The woofer? In between but close to the woofer? etc.]
- mic aiming
- mic flaws and pickup pattern
- mic calibration (if any)
- room reflections contaminating the signal [unless, say, performed in an anechoic chamber]
- "room gain"/cabin pressure/vessel pressure, or whatever it is called these days
- spurious environmental noise [like that low rumble from the garbage truck across the street you weren't even consciously aware of during the measurement because it was below your threshold level of detection, but not that of the mic's]
- was, as you mention, DSP/EQ used?

 

[Allen Vos]

See how bumpy that forum post's curve is, varying up and down by many dB between 20-20khz? Whereas the professional review site I linked to doesn't even vary by a single dB over that same range? This tells us the forum guy used a microphone rather than the proper way using a direct electrical wire.

When recording the output of a speaker you are sort of forced to use a mic but for an electrical device like a preamp, processor, or AVR you want to use the direct electrical feed.

Recording with a mic is highly flawed because it introduces tons of huge variables:
- mic distance
- mic centering [Was it in front of the tweeter? The woofer? In between but close to the woofer? etc.]
- mic aiming
- mic flaws and pickup pattern
- mic calibration (if any)
- room reflections contaminating the signal [unless, say, performed in an anechoic chamber]
- was, as you mention, DSP/EQ used?

I do see how bumpy the curve is.

I believe he was doing Room correction though, so you would want a microphone as opposed to a direct wire otherwise, how would you be able to see how the room reacts?

I have asked the question on the other forum, if a mini dsp was used. I will report back if I get an answer

Bottom line is I dont neccesarily need to play 5-10hz content on a regular basis , but I dont want to be limited at all by my hardware or software, if that makes sense?

 

[m. zillch]

Another issue is different reviewers (and manufacturers) measure by different means. You get different results depending on:
- analog RCA stereo in?
- analog RCA multichannel in?
- all processing off or all processing 100% bypassed?
- ADC bypassed? [Gene says it fundamentally can't be done on some]
- digital in [HDMI/coax/optical rarely matters much but to be picky it should be specified]
- probing the signal at the zone out?
- the preamp out?
- the amplifier out?
- bass management settings?
etc.

 

[Allen Vos]

Another issue is different reviewers (and manufacturers) measure by different means. You get different results depending on:
- analog RCA stereo in?
- analog RCA multichannel in?
- all processing off or all processing 100% bypassed?
- ADC bypassed? [Gene says it fundamentally can't be done on some]
- digital in [HDMI/coax/optical rarely matters much but to be picky it should be specified]
- probing the signal at the zone out?
- the preamp out?
- the amplifier out?
- bass management settings?
etc.

I see where you're coming from. I don't have that kind of specialized equipment myself. My subs won't be here for another month, but once the boxes are built, I'm going to measure the system myself. I'll use REW and a UMIK-1 mic to check the amp's frequency range before and after the MiniDSP. It's tough learning this stuff online when everyone has a different opinion, so I'm completely open to any testing tips or advice from you or anyone else.

 

[m. zillch]

I've never owned one but with a specific focus on infrasonic frequency response down to 5Hz, I suspect the UMIK-1 is iffy. "Frequency response: 20 Hz - 20kHz +/-1dB with calibration loaded "

You might consider omnidirectional calibration mics from companies like Earthworks, B&K, and DPA. [Much pricier though]. Not that I'm well read on them but they are some of the big names in the field that come to mind.

UPDATE: Keep in mind that just because some people post graphs showing readings for low, single digit bass on some mics like the UMIK-1, this doesn't prove they are necessarily accurate values.