Looking for help on a new home audio system, blow amp's

[JakeDW]

I struggle with understanding exactly how this system was wired.

One channel of an amplifier is designed to power ONE SPEAKER.

By the accounts, it sounds like multiple speakers are being driven off of a single channel of the amplifier. It sounds like a 'stereo zone' is being wired off a single channel setup of the amplifier. It sounds like the A&B channels of the amplifier are being used to drive 9 speakers... instead of 2 or 4, like it was designed for.

I think the wiring to the speaker selectors (16/4) is fine. I think the wiring to the speakers (16/4) is potentially correct as long as it's one pair of wiring per speaker.

I think that the wiring back at the amplifier may not be correct and that this will lead to multiple problems down the road.

I would STRONGLY recommend that instead of a 2 channel amp and a SIX ZONE speaker selector (which is what should be used at a minimum) that you instead use a 12 channel amplifier from a quality manufacturers like Sonance, Speakercraft, or Niles.
ie: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-Sonamp-1230-12-Channel-30-WPC-Whole-House-Amplifier-Tested/313388463681?hash=item48f7687641:g:cTQAAOSwjJVgCENf

An amplifier like this will give you 12 total channels of amplification which you will need for your NINE separate speakers.

The 'Master', makes zero sense as that's a single mono speaker. This isn't something I ever recommend, especially in more budget oriented systems. Everything else is stereo, so how did you really think this 'one' speaker was going to work? It makes no sense.

Still, there are solutions and options. Realistically, unless you are keen on stereo everywhere, I would run the whole system as mono and just get good audio to every speaker with independent amplification. Make sure the amplifier has good airflow and isn't stacked in with 30 other pieces of electronics shoved into a drawer, which will kill everything. COOLING MATTERS!

While I think the foundation is decent, I think the implementation leaves a lot on the table and should be considered as the most likely culprit for your woes.

Remember, you have a 2-channel amplifier right now, don't overdrive it!

I have two 2 channel amplifiers and have 4 pairs as well as a single speaker that is probably not correct. That single speaker is doubled up on another channels right speaker.

I have a 16/4 per pair from the amp to the VC and then to the 2 speakers, red/blk for right and wht/grn for left. the 4 wire hits the first speaker and red and black are used green and white are jointed and then passed to the second speaker and landed on the one where the red and black are not used.

So multiple channel amplifier or 2 channel amplifier using a speaker selector?

 

[JakeDW]

BTW- Proficient has dual voice coil speakers for areas that will only have one- that would balance the load on the amplifier.

6½" Dual Voice Coil Polypropylene Woofer & Two 1/2" Hard Dome Tweeters | Proficient

C625TT Ceiling Speaker The C625TT is the most affordable way to get Proficient-quality stereo sound. With a dual-voice-coil woofer and dual tweeters, the C625TT reproduces both left and right stereo channels in a single, easy-to-install in-ceiling speaker. Super-high sensitivity makes the C625TT...

proficientaudio.com

I see that offered and is not a bad price, I will pick that up to change out and make that correct.

 

[BMXTRIX]

...So multiple channel amplifier or 2 channel amplifier using a speaker selector?

It is the typical way to do things. If using a speaker selector, typically it will be an impedance matching speaker selector which automatically adjusts for the number of speakers active.

But, using a multi-channel amp from a quality manufacturer and ensuring it is in a well ventilated area is best. This is common practice in better installations.

 

[JakeDW]

It is the typical way to do things. If using a speaker selector, typically it will be an impedance matching speaker selector which automatically adjusts for the number of speakers active.

But, using a multi-channel amp from a quality manufacturer and ensuring it is in a well ventilated area is best. This is common practice in better installations.

any recommendations? what size am I looking for given the 3 pairs of Proficient C621's an 1 pair of AW650's. I will swap out the single speaker with a C625TT dual voice coil speaker.

 

[highfigh]

I struggle with understanding exactly how this system was wired.

One channel of an amplifier is designed to power ONE SPEAKER.

By the accounts, it sounds like multiple speakers are being driven off of a single channel of the amplifier. It sounds like a 'stereo zone' is being wired off a single channel setup of the amplifier. It sounds like the A&B channels of the amplifier are being used to drive 9 speakers... instead of 2 or 4, like it was designed for.

I think the wiring to the speaker selectors (16/4) is fine. I think the wiring to the speakers (16/4) is potentially correct as long as it's one pair of wiring per speaker.

I think that the wiring back at the amplifier may not be correct and that this will lead to multiple problems down the road.

I would STRONGLY recommend that instead of a 2 channel amp and a SIX ZONE speaker selector (which is what should be used at a minimum) that you instead use a 12 channel amplifier from a quality manufacturers like Sonance, Speakercraft, or Niles.
ie: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-Sonamp-1230-12-Channel-30-WPC-Whole-House-Amplifier-Tested/313388463681?hash=item48f7687641:g:cTQAAOSwjJVgCENf

An amplifier like this will give you 12 total channels of amplification which you will need for your NINE separate speakers.

The 'Master', makes zero sense as that's a single mono speaker. This isn't something I ever recommend, especially in more budget oriented systems. Everything else is stereo, so how did you really think this 'one' speaker was going to work? It makes no sense.

Still, there are solutions and options. Realistically, unless you are keen on stereo everywhere, I would run the whole system as mono and just get good audio to every speaker with independent amplification. Make sure the amplifier has good airflow and isn't stacked in with 30 other pieces of electronics shoved into a drawer, which will kill everything. COOLING MATTERS!

While I think the foundation is decent, I think the implementation leaves a lot on the table and should be considered as the most likely culprit for your woes.

Remember, you have a 2-channel amplifier right now, don't overdrive it!

A & B terminals, not channels, as you know- just trying to make it easier for others.

Sounds like each pair of terminals has a pair of speakers, with the odd speaker connected to one of the amps, probably causing one of the problems. Not sure what i causing the problem for the second amplifier.

I gave up on using speaker selectors on amplifiers and receivers that produce less than 100W/channel a long time ago, if they're trying to drive more than 2 pairs of speakers- the power/speaker just doesn't provide enough output or headroom.

 

[JakeDW]

A & B terminals- the amps only have two channels.

Sounds like each pair of terminals has a pair of speakers, with the odd speaker connected to one of the amps, probably causing one of the problems. Not sure what i causing the problem for the second amplifier.

I gave up on using speaker selectors on amplifiers and receivers that produce less than 100W/channel a long time ago, if they're trying to drive more than 2 pairs of speakers- the power/speaker just doesn't provide enough output or headroom.

You are correct, I am guessing impedance matching issues and cheap amplifier with little to no protection, I have yet to ohm out my loops to double check this.

Do you have a multi channel amp that you recommend then?

 

[highfigh]

Yes every pair of speakers had a home run from the amp to the VC and then to the speakers ran with 16/4.

The amp that blew had 2 pairs on it on pair on A and one pair on B and a separate speaker set up as a right added on speaker B (probably the issue)

My VC's were original set up for for 4Ohms, I am assuming these need to be set on 9Ohms as 8 is not an option?

I am assuming if the VC is set correctly and if I ohm out that speaker loop reading thru the VC I should read 8Ohms mean that loop is correct? or does the VC need to be removed from the circuit.

My speakers and amp were purchased from ADI (we use them as a vendor for automation components in y line of work. for a multi channel option it looks like they offer these options:

https://www.adiglobaldistribution.us/Catalog/shopproducts/5000-Audio-Video/5520-AV-Components/UI-AMP800VS $543

https://www.adiglobaldistribution.us/Catalog/shopproducts/5000-Audio-Video/5520-AV-Components/RD-D850 $594

https://www.adiglobaldistribution.us/Catalog/shopproducts/5000-Audio-Video/5520-AV-Components/NN-SI1230II $649

I do not mind sourcing something somewhere else if there are better options, I just want something that will work good and is reliable. I would probably like to bridge my outdoor deck pair of speakers as these are mounted up in the eves aimed down.

What are the advantages over multi channel amp or amp and speaker selector if only using one source, I dont mind my sonos connect and would rather keep and and use it until something new replaces it.

Attached are some photos. I am only showing the 1 amp but the other is the same however I have the single speaker added to Speaker A Right.
View attachment 44068View attachment 44066View attachment 44067

You should have read the info for the volume controls- you have two pairs on A, one pair on B and when speaker switches A and B are selected, the speakers are parallel, so your amp had 2 Ohm loads, which is NOT what it was designed for. The current is 4 times what it should be and the fuse blew because of this. Set the switch on the volume control to its highest position if you want to try, but this system still won't produce much output, nor would I expect it to last long, knowing what you just posted (this should have been in the original post).

The way this system is set up has no advantages over a multi-channel amplifier if you use the volume controls for each zone- it can't possibly send the same amount of power to each speaker, you can't provide a load to the amplifier that will let it survive and you can't use this in bridge/stereo mode, as you can with the Dayton amp I linked to.

As I posted, keep the Sonos- the Dayton amp can be used with all channels receiving the signal from one input.

Best way with the fewest changes-

Sonos---->Dayton(or other brand) multi-channel amp--->one volume control/speaker--->one pair of speakers per volume control.

 

[highfigh]

You are correct, I am guessing impedance matching issues and cheap amplifier with little to no protection, I have yet to ohm out my loops to double check this.

Do you have a multi channel amp that you recommend then?

The fuse that blew IS the protection and you should have measured the resistance on all zones before the amp was connected- that's how it's done (or should be) in the CI world.

Did you not see the amp in my other posts?

 

[JakeDW]

You should have read the info for the volume controls- you have two pairs on A, one pair on B and when speaker switches A and B are selected, the speakers are parallel, so your amp had 2 Ohm loads, which is NOT what it was designed for. The current is 4 times what it should be and the fuse blew because of this. Set the switch on the volume control to its highest position if you want to try, but this system still won't produce much output, nor would I expect it to last long, knowing what you just posted (this should have been in the original post).

The way this system is set up has no advantages over a multi-channel amplifier if you use the volume controls for each zone- it can't possibly send the same amount of power to each speaker, you can't provide a load to the amplifier that will let it survive and you can't use this in bridge/stereo mode, as you can with the Dayton amp I linked to.

As I posted, keep the Sonos- the Dayton amp can be used with all channels receiving the signal from one input.

Best way with the fewest changes-

Sonos---->Dayton(or other brand) multi-channel amp--->one volume control/speaker--->one pair of speakers per volume control.

Thanks I understand what you are saying. Each volume control obviously can handle a pair of speakers. The proficient speakers are 8Ohms. Does that mean the impedance matching selector needs to be set to 9? 8 is not an option.

I will look for the Dayton or something equivalent that I can find available.

 

[highfigh]

The fact that the Connect is disco'd means nothing- it will work fine until they no longer support it and at that point, he can replace it.

Apparently, someone who doesn't understand this stuff thought this post was dumb, but didn't bother to show why.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks I understand what you are saying. Each volume control obviously can handle a pair of speakers. The proficient speakers are 8Ohms. Does that mean the impedance matching selector needs to be set to 9? 8 is not an option.

I will look for the Dayton or something equivalent that I can find available.

It looks like the control has 1x, 2x, 4,x, etc- is this true? If that's the case, that doesn't mean 'Impedance', it refers to the number of controls that are wired parallel.

Again, read the info for the equipment, so you'll know how it's supposed to be connected.

You wrote that you work for an automation company- why didn't you ask someone you work with?

 

[JakeDW]

It looks like the control has 1x, 2x, 4,x, etc- is this true? If that's the case, that doesn't mean 'Impedance', it refers to the number of controls that are wired parallel.

Again, read the info for the equipment, so you'll know how it's supposed to be connected.

You wrote that you work for an automation company- why didn't you ask someone you work with?

I believe it would be impedance, attached is a diagram from the manual. Am I wrong or not understanding it correctly?

We do not mess with audio, just DDC controls.

 

[highfigh]

I believe it would be impedance, attached is a diagram from the manual. Am I wrong or not understanding it correctly?
View attachment 44081
We do not mess with audio, just DDC controls.

Look on the bottom of the board.

This is the reason for MEASURING the resistance.

 

[JakeDW]

I guess they the way that they explain it is confusing to me. But I am understanding that the slider corresponds to the amount of pairs that I have connected on the output of the VC. In this case I have 1 pair at 8Ohms. So the slider should be set at its lowest setting. 8Ohm Amp - 8Ohm VC - 8Ohm speaker pair.

"Read the info about using in-wall volume controls- it would apply to the Pyle amplifiers or any other brand. " I guess I didn't see an article you linked to.

Again, I appreciate your help. I know its probably frustrating talking to an idiot about this stuff.

 

[highfigh]

I guess they the way that they explain it is confusing to me. But I am understanding that the slider corresponds to the amount of pairs that I have connected on the output of the VC. In this case I have 1 pair at 8Ohms. So the slider should be set at its lowest setting. 8Ohm Amp - 8Ohm VC - 8Ohm speaker pair.

"Read the info about using in-wall volume controls- it would apply to the Pyle amplifiers or any other brand. " I guess I didn't see an article you linked to.

Again, I appreciate your help. I know its probably frustrating talking to an idiot about this stuff.

You need to look into the way these controls work- in order to maintain impedance that an amp can handle, the input has multiple taps on the winding and when the switch is moved from one position to another, the resistance will change. Again, this is the reason the resistance MUST be measured if you want the amp to survive.

 

[JakeDW]

You need to look into the way these controls work- in order to maintain impedance that an amp can handle, the input has multiple taps on the winding and when the switch is moved from one position to another, the resistance will change. Again, this is the reason the resistance MUST be measured if you want the amp to survive.

applying my meter across red and black on my wire from the amplifier feeding the VC I am looking to read 8Ohms correct and if that is not the case then that switch should be adjusted accordingly? If I see something much higher than 8Ohms obviously that would indicate I have a short or grounded situation.

 

[highfigh]

applying my meter across red and black on my wire from the amplifier feeding the VC I am looking to read 8Ohms correct and if that is not the case then that switch should be adjusted accordingly? If I see something much higher than 8Ohms obviously that would indicate I have a short or grounded situation.

You won't see the impedance, you'll see the DC resistance. This is often about 80% of the impedance, but if you see anything below 6 Ohms, don't leave it in that position- when A+B is used, the loads are parallel. If you don't know how to calculate parallel loads and/or design a system, learn to do it or hire someone, if you want the system to be reliable.