Looking for a new amplifier

[little wing]

Just an fyi, I called Ascend today, the office is closed but they still got back to me. I was inquiring about a Horizon center speaker. The reason I did not go with one initially was because of space constraints (it's a big speaker!) But it sounds like they are willing to build a custom cabinet if need be. I am not sure of the cost though. If anyone is curious, you can PM me and once I find out, I'll let you know. Nice company to deal with so far, and I fine speaker.

 

[GIEGAR]

thank you so much for this breakdown. It kind of puts it into perspective. One reason I choose the Ascend towers was because they are not an extremely difficult load to drive. Honestly the power of my RxV2500 seems like enough to give the speakers a nice dynamic, balanced, and detailed sound. the Yamaha is a little dated, so I wanted to bring my system up to date a bit. One thing is, I do use the multichannel out puts of my Oppo 105, so I didn't really want to give that up choosing a new receiver. But there are some pretty intriguing arguments here to go with a lower priced receiver and add an amp. As I said before my main concern is dynamics and punch even at low volumes. But when I want to go full tilt with with Voodoo Child, or any of my other favorites, I want to close my eyes and be there.

Well, if you're after multichannel analog audio inputs (7.1), that puts the Denon AVR-4311CI back in the frame, because it has them and the Denon AVR-X4000CI (amongst many others) does not. These days, you're generally looking at a top-of-the-line AVR, or close to it, for multichannel analog audio inputs.

Honestly though, I don't know why you'd want to hook up in that manner when HDMI is available. By using the MC IN you're directly plugging into the AVR's analog preamp, thus bypassing all digital processing. Essentially, the AVR's function is reduced to that of a pre/power amp for that signal route. This means for example, no opportunity to apply processing to derive additional channel information (such as Dolby PLII), and - most importantly - no opportunity to apply Audyssey's EQ and Dynamic EQ. You will also be relying on the Oppo's bass management rather than being able to use Audyssey's reported results as a basis for the bass management by the AVR.

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't achieve the punch and dynamics you seek at moderate volumes with your great speaker/sub combo and a dose of response massaging courtesy of Audyssey XT32. You'll generally get good, satisfying punch with a uniform response through the mid bass range (100Hz - 200Hz).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Dynamics & Punch even at low volume = Dynamic EQ.

 

[little wing]

Well, if you're after multichannel analog audio inputs (7.1), that puts the Denon AVR-4311CI back in the frame, because it has them and the Denon AVR-X4000CI (amongst many others) does not. These days, you're generally looking at a top-of-the-line AVR, or close to it, for multichannel analog audio inputs.

Honestly though, I don't know why you'd want to hook up in that manner when HDMI is available. By using the MC IN you're directly plugging into the AVR's analog preamp, thus bypassing all digital processing. Essentially, the AVR's function is reduced to that of a pre/power amp for that signal route. This means for example, no opportunity to apply processing to derive additional channel information (such as Dolby PLII), and - most importantly - no opportunity to apply Audyssey's EQ and Dynamic EQ. You will also be relying on the Oppo's bass management rather than being able to use Audyssey's reported results as a basis for the bass management by the AVR.

I can't see any reason why you wouldn't achieve the punch and dynamics you seek at moderate volumes with your great speaker/sub combo and a dose of response massaging courtesy of Audyssey XT32. You'll generally get good, satisfying punch with a uniform response through the mid bass range (100Hz - 200Hz).

You make very good points, I understand using MC-inputs bypasses all receiver processing. It's just a nice option to have it available on my current receiver. But maybe I won't need to use it on a newer receiver that I bring into the mix. I am looking at several Denon and Marantz models. Going to pull the trigger soon and test one at home. Thanks for your help Giegar

 

[little wing]

Dynamics & Punch even at low volume = Dynamic EQ.

I don't know Denon speak, so I wasn't really sure what Dynamic EQ was, so I did a research . This little piece explains it perfectly!

<header id="section-header" class="section section-header">














</header> <section class="block block-views tech-menu-block block-audyssey-technologies-tech-menu block-views-audyssey-technologies-tech-menu odd" id="block-views-audyssey-technologies-tech-menu"> [h=2]Technologies[/h] [h=3]Mobile Applications[/h]
[h=3]Mobile Devices[/h]
[h=3]Television[/h]
[h=3]Automotive[/h]
[h=3]Personal Computer[/h]
[h=3]Home Theater[/h]




</section> [h=1]Dynamic EQ FAQ[/h] [h=3] Why can’t I hear my surround sound and bass when I turn my volume down? [/h] The scientific reason? It's so you can sleep at night. If we could hear low frequencies at the same levels as the higher frequencies, our heart and other vital organs, which produce a lot of noise at low frequencies, would keep us awake. But evolution wasn’t aware that one day we'd want to watch movies the way they were created. When designers mix sound for movies they listen at very high levels. The decisions they make about the balance of frequencies and the level of surround sound is done for the loud volumes in movie theaters. When we listen at home the sound is a lot quieter, and so our balance is completely different. That's why movies sound like they're lacking bass and surround. Dynamic EQ is designed to fix that. It restores the proper balance by making adjustments for human perception at lower listening levels.

 

[markw]

In the old days we called it the "loudness" button.

 

[little wing]

In the old days we called it the "loudness" button.

Yeah on my Yamaha it's called the "Night" mode

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In the old days we called it the "loudness" button.

Yeah on my Yamaha it's called the "Night" mode

Don't confuse Dynamic EQ (DEQ) vs Dynamic Volume.

Dynamic Volume is more like the "loudness button" or "Night mode", etc.

DEQ does nothing to increase the volume in the 200Hz-10kHz region. If you look at the graph of DEQ, it enhances the bass region below 200Hz and flattens out the treble from 10kHz-18kHz. Keep in mind that the bass enhancement is adjustable and dynamic, not fixed. You can tailor the response effect to your preference.

 

[RichB]

I don't know Denon speak, so I wasn't really sure what Dynamic EQ was, so I did a research . This little piece explains it perfectly!

<HEADER id=section-header class="section section-header">
Why can’t I hear my surround sound and bass when I turn my volume down?

The scientific reason? It's so you can sleep at night. If we could hear low frequencies at the same levels as the higher frequencies, our heart and other vital organs, which produce a lot of noise at low frequencies, would keep us awake. But evolution wasn’t aware that one day we'd want to watch movies the way they were created. When designers mix sound for movies they listen at very high levels. The decisions they make about the balance of frequencies and the level of surround sound is done for the loud volumes in movie theaters. When we listen at home the sound is a lot quieter, and so our balance is completely different. That's why movies sound like they're lacking bass and surround. Dynamic EQ is designed to fix that. It restores the proper balance by making adjustments for human perception at lower listening levels.

Another reason, is not too many tracks have much bass encoded into the rears. Although, it would be nice if they did.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Don't confuse Dynamic EQ (DEQ) vs Dynamic Volume.

Dynamic Volume is more like the "loudness button" or "Night mode", etc.

DEQ does nothing to increase the volume in the 200Hz-10kHz region. If you look at the graph of DEQ, it enhances the bass region below 200Hz and flattens out the treble from 10kHz-18kHz. Keep in mind that the bass enhancement is adjustable and dynamic, not fixed. You can tailor the response effect to your preference.

Doesn't DEQ's effect automatically change with volume as well?

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Doesn't DEQ's effect automatically change with volume as well?

- Rich

It does change a little with volume, but not for all frequencies, only in the bass and upper treble. Regardless of volumes, the frequency response is going to be flat from 200Hz-20kHz.

Dynamic Volume and it's many "loudness button" variations boosts all low volumes and suppresses all high volumes regardless of frequencies.

 

[PENG]

Doesn't DEQ's effect automatically change with volume as well?

- Rich

Yes, the effect decreases as the volume increases. At master volume of 0 the effect will theoretically also be 0, that is no effect at or above volume 0.

 

[PENG]

If you look at the graph of DEQ, it enhances the bass region below 200Hz and flattens out the treble from 10kHz-18kHz.

That looks like the graph I posted in the other thread and they are for my speakers in my room, YMMV but the relative difference between DEQ On and Off should be similar. It tried to flatten the response at above 10 KHz because my speakers in my room in their present locations begin to roll off at that point. Before I moved them recently, they were flatter all the way to 20 KHz and I suspect at that time DEQ would have still applied some boost and then it would not have been flat but it would sound flat to us normal humans.

 

[GIEGAR]

Yes, the effect decreases as the volume increases. At master volume of 0 the effect will theoretically also be 0, that is no effect at or above volume 0.

PENG, I do recall from somewhere that above a calibrated 0dB master volume, DEQ's effect is reversed and starts to reduce bass, upper treble and surround levels. I can't provide a rolled gold source for this, but it does make sense if you consider that DEQ's aim is to preserve the octave-to-octave balance and surround envelopment of the soundtrack at levels below reference, it should also preserve the same attributes at above reference levels. Probably academic as so few would listen above reference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It tried to flatten the response at above 10 KHz because my speakers in my room in their present locations begin to roll off at that point. Before I moved them recently, they were flatter all the way to 20 KHz and I suspect at that time DEQ would have still applied some boost and then it would not have been flat but it would sound flat to us normal humans.

Or DEQ may not do anything above 10kHz if the response is already flat. That is why it is DYNAMIC. It doesn't boost or decrease anything unless it NEEDS to.

I also suspect that if the bass is already hot from 20Hz-200Hz, DEQ probably would not boost the bass either.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

PENG, I do recall from somewhere that above a calibrated 0dB master volume, DEQ's effect is reversed and starts to reduce bass, upper treble and surround levels. I can't provide a rolled gold source for this, but it does make sense if you consider that DEQ's aim is to preserve the octave-to-octave balance and surround envelopment of the soundtrack at levels below reference, it should also preserve the same attributes at above reference levels. Probably academic as so few would listen above reference.

Yeah, I suspect that DEQ will do whatever is needed to keep the balance. IOW, DEQ will not just blindly increase or decrease anything. It does it to keep the balance of sound.

 

[mtrot]

You make very good points, I understand using MC-inputs bypasses all receiver processing. It's just a nice option to have it available on my current receiver. But maybe I won't need to use it on a newer receiver that I bring into the mix. I am looking at several Denon and Marantz models. Going to pull the trigger soon and test one at home. Thanks for your help Giegar

I also agree that connecting your Oppo to the receiver via HDMI is the way to go. Not only does it allow, as mentioned by others, for Audessey, but you also take the six or more interconnect cables out of the equation. Yes, some interconnects are very good, but there has to be some signal loss from the cables and or connectors they employ. The only caveat would be if you found the audio DACs in the Oppo to be audibly superior to those in the Denon receiver, which I doubt.

 

[little wing]

I also agree that connecting your Oppo to the receiver via HDMI is the way to go. Not only does it allow, as mentioned by others, for Audessey, but you also take the six or more interconnect cables out of the equation. Yes, some interconnects are very good, but there has to be some signal loss from the cables and or connectors they employ. The only caveat would be if you found the audio DACs in the Oppo to be audibly superior to those in the Denon receiver, which I doubt.

I hear you mtrot. Thanks. My only concern with going with an AVR that doesn't have 7.1 ins is that it will completely take the DACs of the Oppo out of the equation. Right now the Oppo's DACs sound better than the ones in the Yamaha with the SACDs that I have. I am thinking about waiting for one of the new Denons or going with a Marantz at this point. Brands like Cambridge Audio are also intriguing. Decisions Decisions..

 

[RichB]

I hear you mtrot. Thanks. My only concern with going with an AVR that doesn't have 7.1 ins is that it will completely take the DACs of the Oppo out of the equation. Right now the Oppo's DACs sound better than the ones in the Yamaha with the SACDs that I have. I am thinking about waiting for one of the new Denons or going with a Marantz at this point. Brands like Cambridge Audio are also intriguing. Decisions Decisions..

Also, the new Anthems are nice because you get to buy the channels you need, get pre-outs, and the room correction and loudness processing arevery good.
You don't have network features of a Marantz/Denon, etc. but the 105 does those very well (most all except airplay).

I run the 105D directly to my A51 amp and it works quite well. Many do this.
Add an amp to your 105 like an ATI200X is another option you could consider if you are willing to forgo a processor entirely.
You get no room equalization and only 2 inputs. Also, the HDMI switching and source selection are not as fast as an AVR.
It sounds good though and the amp section will drive your speakers, guaranteed.

- Rich

 

[little wing]

Also, the new Anthems are nice because you get to buy the channels you need, get pre-outs, and the room correction and loudness processing arevery good.
You don't have network features of a Marantz/Denon, etc. but the 105 does those very well (most all except airplay).

Correct. That's why I love the 105.

I run the 105D directly to my A51 amp and it works quite well. Many do this.
Add an amp to your 105 like an ATI200X is another option you could consider if you are willing to forgo a processor entirely.
You get no room equalization and only 2 inputs. Also, the HDMI switching and source selection are not as fast as an AVR.
It sounds good though and the amp section will drive your speakers, guaranteed.

- Rich

I thought about that, but I think it's a little too radical for me. I want the connectivity, processing and room eq of an AVR. I'm sure your setup sounds amazing though. Are you referring to the new Anthem AVRs?