Looking at ML's, would my Receiver work, or do I need a big amp?

[captain_tinker]

Folks,
Hey, I have been looking around lately trying to figure out what speakers I wanted to get for my front mains. I want to replace my Titan's, and maybe either put them in back as surrounds, or move them to another room altogether. Anyway, I listened to some Paradigm Studio 60's the other day and I was really impressed by them. They had some very nice detail and were very smooth. The same store that sells them also sells some Martin Logan speakers. I heard the in wall ones they had and they were incredible! I don't really want in wall ones, but I may be willing to look at the Mosaic's or the Montage's. I haven't actually listened to them yet, but they seem like they could be some very interesting speakers. I know that their impedance is a lot different from most speakers. The Mosaic's are 5 ohms nominally, which I am assuming means that they can vary to much lower depending on the signal coming in. I also see that most people run the ML's with an amp that can handle 4 ohms at x amount of watts or whatever. I own a Marantz SR5600, with 90 watts at 8 ohms. I suppose then that this means I may have problems running the 5 ohm speakers from my receiver. But what kind of problems would that be? Would it be that it would just not sound good at all, or would the receiver's amp get really hot or something?

What kind of amp would be suggested to run something like this if I did ever decide to go with such an esoteric line of speakers? Thanks!

-capT

 

[WmAx]

Folks,
Hey, I have been looking around lately trying to figure out what speakers I wanted to get for my front mains. I want to replace my Titan's, and maybe either put them in back as surrounds, or move them to another room altogether. Anyway, I listened to some Paradigm Studio 60's the other day and I was really impressed by them. They had some very nice detail and were very smooth. The same store that sells them also sells some Martin Logan speakers. I heard the in wall ones they had and they were incredible! I don't really want in wall ones, but I may be willing to look at the Mosaic's or the Montage's. I haven't actually listened to them yet, but they seem like they could be some very interesting speakers. I know that their impedance is a lot different from most speakers. The Mosaic's are 5 ohms nominally, which I am assuming means that they can vary to much lower depending on the signal coming in. I also see that most people run the ML's with an amp that can handle 4 ohms at x amount of watts or whatever. I own a Marantz SR5600, with 90 watts at 8 ohms. I suppose then that this means I may have problems running the 5 ohm speakers from my receiver. But what kind of problems would that be? Would it be that it would just not sound good at all, or would the receiver's amp get really hot or something?

What kind of amp would be suggested to run something like this if I did ever decide to go with such an esoteric line of speakers? Thanks!

-capT

Is the Marantz specified to handle 4 ohm nominal loads? If not specified on the unit or in the manual, ask a Marantz technician. By running an amplifier below it's rating, you risk premature failure of the product because of the increased current loads across the output devices and increased thermal dissipation requirements not designed into the product.

That being said, if your Marantz is not designed to operate the load, get a Behringer A500($180 shipped, 220 measured watts per channel into 4 ohms). It will handle 4 ohm loads easily, and regardless of complexity (reactivity) of the load, the A500 will not fail you or have any problem(s).

-Chris

 

[captain_tinker]

Chris,
Oh Wow! I looked up that Behringer A500, and found it here:

http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG

That looks really pretty. I just showed it to my wife, and said, hey honey, can I have this? She looks at it, what's that? Hehe, that's what I just asked her about her new embroidery machine... owell, to each their own hobby.

In any case, at least that explains what happens when you use a component that isn't spec'd for a certain job. I was just curious. I am still learning about this stuff. I've really only been into this hobby for just less than a year, and had my components for about 6 months. So I am still trying to gain an education on it.

So, let's say that the speaker I am looking at, the Mosaic, has a nominal load of 5 ohms, and power handling of up to 175 watts. Does this mean that I cannot use any amp with more power than 175 watts, or does that just mean that the amp will deliver the amount of power that the speaker can handle? That is something I am a bit confused about. So let's say that this Behringer can put out up to 230 wpc into 4 ohms. So does that mean LESS wpc when the ohms are more? Would that be 115 wpc on an 8 ohm load? So then how many wpc for a 5 ohm load? What is the math here?

As for amplifiers then that could handle that kind of load, what other brands out there can handle a pair of 5 ohm ML's? I like the price of that Behringer. Is it one of the better brands out there? I have not heard much about it yet, I guess I need to read up on it some more. Probably also need to find one to listen to. I looked up the dealers, and luckily there is one just down the street! Wahoo! I guess that's my next stop. Hmm, that's right next door to the sewing store my wife goes to... Hmm...

-capT

 

[Seth=L]

How much does your receiver weigh, and what is the power consumption?

 

[captain_tinker]

Seth=L,
According to the spec sheet, it is 30 lbs. The power information is written as follows:

Power Output (8 Ohm) - 90W x 7 (<0.08%, 20Hz -20kHz/THD)

Power Consumption - 450W

Power Requirement - AC 120V/60Hz

Does this help at all?

-capT

 

[as350_b3]

Post your questions at the Martin Logan Owners' forum.
http://67.19.167.226/~tdacquis/forum/index.php

The ohm load on the amp varies based on frequency. So a speaker rated at 5 ohms can be anywhere from lets say 200 ohms to 1 ohm. Obviously many amps will eventually fail if you try to constantly run a 1 ohm load, as the current required exceeds the design specs (of the amp). So I would carefully select a proper amp for MLs, as they are known to be tricky to drive due to the low ohms.

The other thing you want to keep in mind, is to make sure you never overdrive an amp, which will lead to clipping. That is pretty bad for ML speakers (any speaker, really, but especially electrostatic speakers). So if you have a small amp don't play too loud. If your speakers are rated at 175 watts you want an amp that can comfortably handle that, i.e. be rated above 175 watts per channel into the specified load. To make things easier on you, you could assume 4 ohms instead of 5 and run the numbers. Just make sure the amp can handle 4 ohms, though.

 

[captain_tinker]

as350_b3,
Thank you for the reference to the martinloganowners forum, that was much appreciated. I did create a thread there:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?p=26777&posted=1#post26777

As it turns out, I looked at the spec sheet and it had a picture of the back plane of the Marantz receiver, and right there, printed under the speaker posts, it said "Minimum 6 ohms". So I guess then that means a speaker with a 5 ohm load would probably not work. I will definately have to get an amp. Now, if I could just find one that is not too expensive and will work. That Behringer amp that was mentioned sounds nice, but it also sounds like it is too good to be true. That much power for that small of a price? Something seems fishy. I have looked up several other brands since last night, and each one is at least several thousand dollars, with the cheapest being several hundred dollars. What am I missing here? It was suggested on the other forum that perhaps the Behringer was meant more to be a musical instrument amp? Like for a guitar perhaps, and that could be why they were selling it at Guitar World? I don't know. If someone could tell me that they use it with some ML's and it works fine then maybe I may think about it. Otherwise, I think I am going to have to look into something else geared more for an ML.

-capT

 

[Seth=L]

It is not that it will not work, just that it is not advised to do so. The specs are helpfull and you should really get an amp. Before you buy the Behringer I would look at a used amp like Adcom, Sunfire, or Carver. My dad has a Sunfire Cinema Grand amp paired with his ML's and it sounds very good.

 

[Seth=L]

....That Behringer amp that was mentioned sounds nice, but it also sounds like it is too good to be true. That much power for that small of a price? Something seems fishy. I have looked up several other brands since last night, and each one is at least several thousand dollars, with the cheapest being several hundred dollars. What am I missing here? It was suggested on the other forum that perhaps the Behringer was meant more to be a musical instrument amp? Like for a guitar perhaps, and that could be why they were selling it at Guitar World? I don't know. If someone could tell me that they use it with some ML's and it works fine then maybe I may think about it. Otherwise, I think I am going to have to look into something else geared more for an ML.

I would not by a Behringer, especially for the ML's. If it is to good to be true, then it likely is, as they say. Behringer is a pro-audio company. They have power, but the configurations they use aren't good for high-end home audio. Since the Behringer amps are designed to power PA speakers that are not good at reproducing good sound, and just loud, then stay away from them.

 

[jaxvon]

I would not by a Behringer, especially for the ML's. If it is to good to be true, then it likely is, as they say. Behringer is a pro-audio company. They have power, but the configurations they use aren't good for high-end home audio. Since the Behringer amps are designed to power PA speakers that are not good at reproducing good sound, and just loud, then stay away from them.

Are you serious? The 3rd party measurements show the amp to be superb. Talk to any of the many members with A500s. They're a great line of amps.

 

[WmAx]

I would not by a Behringer, especially for the ML's. If it is to good to be true, then it likely is, as they say. Behringer is a pro-audio company. They have power, but the configurations they use aren't good for high-end home audio. Since the Behringer amps are designed to power PA speakers that are not good at reproducing good sound, and just loud, then stay away from them.

Configurations they use aren't good for high-end home audio? Please explain.

The amplifier in question has been measured by a respected 3rd party using extensive analysis, and it is nothing less than excellent for complex electrical loads.

Please refer to this thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17004

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

as350_b3,
That Behringer amp that was mentioned sounds nice, but it also sounds like it is too good to be true. That much power for that small of a price? Something seems fishy.

Behringer is a very unique company -- they are willing to take smaller profit margins than [apparently] anyone else. They have several products that seem too cheap for their respective performance. But none the less, you get solid, well performing products.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

They are PA amplifiers, not home amplifiers. Though they make for good sub amps, as distortion is not as inteligable in lower frequencies. They have higher distortion and have coloration characteristics, like brightness.

 

[captain_tinker]

Folks,
Um, I didn't mean to start any arguments. I am just still very unfamiliar with everything amplifier related, so when I saw such a huge difference in price, red flags went up in my mind saying hey, watch out... Things like this have bit me too many times in the past. Not that price always follows quality, but most of the time it seems to. But so far, I see that both WmAx and Jaxvon are both touting it as a good quality amp, so I suppose it could be. But how would it manage with an exotic line like the Martin Logans? That is the unknown here. Probably the only way I could find out is if I bought it all and set it up. If for some reason it didn't work well, I'd be stuck. So I think I would like to make absolutely sure before I buy.

I am going to head over and listen to the ML Mosaics on Saturday, so if I end up liking them, I will then dive headfirst into amp shopping. If I don't like them as much as the Paradigm Studio 60's which I have already auditioned and really liked, then I will probably wait on an Amp until later since my Marantz should be able to handle the Studio 60's for a while.

Stay Tuned!

-capT

 

[Nick250]

They are PA amplifiers, not home amplifiers. Though they make for good sub amps, as distortion is not as inteligable in lower frequencies. They have higher distortion and have coloration characteristics, like brightness.

Seth, over the past few years on this forum my observation is that WmAx posts are well thought out and are always solid from a technical standpoint. What is the source of your assertions that the Behringer A500 will having inferior SQ?

Nick

 

[WmAx]

Folks,
Um, I didnBut how would it manage with an exotic line like the Martin Logans? That is the unknown here.

One reason that I recommended this amp is because it does superbly with extremely complex reactive loads, unlike many other amplifiers. While this is not critical for most speakers, some speakers will have extreme demands in this regard. The post that I linked in response to Seth contains an over-view of these measurements. The amplifier remains stable into extreme +/- 60 degree phase angle electrical loads, demonstrating that it is perfectly suited to very complex loads.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

They are PA amplifiers, not home amplifiers. Though they make for good sub amps, as distortion is not as inteligable in lower frequencies. They have higher distortion and have coloration characteristics, like brightness.

If 0.025% THD is considered high, then, okay. But this is far, far below known human audibility thresholds with music[which are >1 % THD]. The little distortion that is created by the A500 is almost entirely 2nd order(no odd order structure!). This combined with the superior handling of very complex electrical phase angle loads, makes the A500 a very good amplifier for a wide variety of speakers.

-Chris

 

[captain_tinker]

If 0.025% THD is considered high, then, okay. But this is far, far below known human audibility thresholds with music[which are >1 % THD]. The little distortion that is created by the A500 is almost entirely 2nd order(no odd order structure!). This combined with the superior handling of very complex electrical phase angle loads, makes the A500 a very good amplifier for a wide variety of speakers.

-Chris

WmAx,
Well based on your recommendation, I am going to go out today and see if I can find the amp and see if there is any possibility of listening to it. I would certainly like it if this was able to handle the load of a ML, because that would certainly keep my costs down, and my enjoyment up! I'll return and report my findings later. Thanks!

-capT

 

[captain_tinker]

Folks,
Unfortunately, I was not able to find the amp in the store, but both the person at that store and at the speaker store both knew about it, and said that yes indeed it was an excellent amp, and that it indeed could do what it says it can do. However both of them said that they would probably not use it for home theater audio, especially with ML speakers. Kind of a combination of what WmAx and Seth=L were saying.

Also the guy at the speaker store said that I could actually just use my Marantz receiver for a while to run them until I could get an amp. He used the analogy of a 4 cylinder engine vs a V6, they can both go the same speed down the road, but one has to work a bit harder to do it. The other is just less effort to do the same thing. So at some point I will want to get an amp if I go with the ML's.

As for that, I did an A/B with the Paradigm Studio 60's and the Mosaic's and they were pretty closely matched. There were times when I could not tell the difference between the two, and then there were times that I could, it depended on the music that was playing. I heard at some points that the upper midrange sounded like it was sort of playing through a thick cardboard tube. The ML's sounded very flat, maybe even a bit bass shy. All in all, I had a really hard time deciding which one I liked better. In the end I am thinking that I would go with the ML's after all.

-capT

 

[WmAx]

Folks,
but both the person at that store and at the speaker store both knew about it, and said that yes indeed it was an excellent amp, and that it indeed could do what it says it can do.

However both of them said that they would probably not use it for home theater audio, especially with ML speakers.

That makes no sense. Please elaborate.

-Chris